Opinions on Cloud based video surveillance systems ?

[Steve.L]

Y'all realize that the OP has not been on since post #7 way back on March 16th, the original post date?

Except Natey2 sort-of carries the torch and plays devil's advocate on subjects like these, so it keeps the discussion going ("stirring the pot," as they say?). I'm not criticizing it either way, newb as I am, I like to hear both sides of the pulpit preach, I enjoy the replies to further edumucate meselph.

 

[mat200]

The 2 apparently popular cam companies here on IP Cam Talk, Hikvision and Dahua Technology, both have cloud storage security cameras. They know they can't drop the ball on this one.

Anyone have a [Asus] traffic analyzer report on the bandwidth usage of those cloud cameras?

Hikvision and Dahua are the #1 and #2 world producers of security cameras .. so you can be certain they make a lot of different types and styles of cameras ..

Cloud storage as an option is also very different than Cloud Dependent ...

 

[Steve.L]

I've never heard of Hikvision or Dahua until here on IP Cam Talk.
And I'm like the average home consumer out there.

How about the dozens (or hundreds) of brands out there that are actually rebranded Dahuas and Hiks?

 

[mat200]

I've never heard of Hikvision or Dahua until here on IP Cam Talk.
And I'm like the average home consumer out there.

Hi @Natey2

Have you heard of Amcrest? Lorex? Backstreet? LaView? Q-see? Annke? AvertX? Panasonic? ABUS? Aventura? EZVIZ? Honeywell? Hyundai? LTS? Nellys? Toshiba? TRENDnet? Speco? Security Camera King? Montavue?

ref: for Hikvision

Hikvision OEM Directory

Updated for 2023, this directory includes 60+ of those companies and 40+ that have dropped Hikvision in the past few years.

ipvm.com

 

[wittaj]

And the Dahua OEM

Dahua OEM Directory

Updated for 2023, lists 50+ Dahua OEMs with a graphic and links to company websites and 30+ that have dropped Dahua in the past few years.

ipvm.com

 

[TonyR]

And I'm like the average home consumer out there.

That is evident.

It's apparent you are content with your solution just as much as others on IPCT don't care for it and prefers their solution and that's OK also.

Very few minds seem to get changed on this "cloud-no cloud" topic... eerily similar to political discussions, although I have seen people change their mind about certain cameras, network schemes and installation techniques.

"What ever cranks your tractor", I always say. That and "You can lead a horse to water, but..." (we all know the rest).

 

[JasonA-EV]

I don't post here much (more of a lurker and seeker of info).. but I do I.T. work for schools and of course right now the hot thing is cameras and one group we're installing alot of is OpenEye. I will say I like their NVR/DVR units alot (Linux boxes) and they are silky smooth and if you're an network admin like me (seems like some of you are) then these units VLAN and talk to almost anything out there.

The only thing like any other cloud based service like Verkada, etc is you have to pay that cloud service so expect that. But they are cheaper then most and so far ZERO issues with them.

I've been trying to find out who makes them or who OEMs their equipment? Like FLIR/ Lorex using Dahua, etc..

Anyways, just adding my $.02 here but for cloud stuff you'll have to pay to play.. and Verkada / OpenEye are great options but I really like OpenEye because you can truly use ANYTHING with them pretty much.
Verkada is a closed system just FYI.

 

[wittaj]

What's the value added buying one of the re-branded, versus directly from the original manufacturer?

The value added with OEM is usually cost, availability, and customer support.

The homeowner isn't Hikvision and Dahua target audience, it is the professional installers, so we cannot purchase directly and thus they will not take your phone call for support related questions - they will tell you to talk to the installer you purchased from. Many people have bought a Hikvision or Dahua from Amazon or some shady foreign website and when they call Hikvision or Dahua for support they basically tell them to go pound salt. We simply are not their intended market to sell to.

As a result, in the USA, you have to purchase from authorized sellers/installers, which in many cases will jack the price up double to five times what an OEM costs, if they will even sell just the camera to you. In many instances they will only sell if they install. And even then, if you try to call Hikvision or Dahua, they will tell you to talk to the installer you purchased it from. Their customer support is for the professional installers that purchase in bulk, not the homeowner buying a few cameras.

So the value added is that the OEM like Lorex and Amcrest exists to cater to the home owner market and bring some of this technology to the home owner market at reasonable costs. As such they have made it easy with QR code scanning and cloud based services and 1-800 help lines. You can purchase this OEM gear directly from Lorex and Amcrest via website, telephone, Amazon, etc. and gain the ability to call a 1-800 number or do a chat session or they remote login to your system to troubleshoot.

Now in many instances that comes at a cost, and the cost is some of these companies will spec out lessor quality materials and cheaper sensors to keep the cost down so that they can then offer 24/7 help and 1-800 numbers.

Then you have OEM sellers like @EMPIRETECANDY that sell OEM that are the exact same camera and hasn't cheapened the camera with lessor grade materials or sensors. So you get the exact same camera for a lot cheaper than purchasing from an authorized professional installer, but without 24/7 customer support and no 1-800 customer service support line. And we are just fine with that because a forum like this exists that can provide much better support than the 1-800 numbers. Just look at all the posts where someone starts the post with they called Lorex support and they couldn't help them...

 

[wittaj]

Just to further elaborate on the above, I guarantee you most do not have the relationship with Dahua and Hikvision that Andy @EMPIRETECANDY has.

Andy's cameras are Dahua and Hikvision OEM equipment sold under the names Loryta and Empiretech.

Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon and AliExpress store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua units. If you get a unit that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo. Some of his cameras may come with EmpireTech stamped on them as well.

As long you you buy from the vendor EmpireTech or Loryta on Amazon (or AliExpress), they are Andy cams and Dahua or Hikvision OEM.

His cameras and NVRs are international models and many of them are not available through Dahua and Hikvision authorized dealers, but his cameras and NVRs are usually better than what you can find from an authorized dealer.

You can update the firmware on Andy's cameras and NVRs from the Dahua and Hikvision website, thus proving they are real Dahua and Hikvision. But you will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 PTZ is another. We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.

Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provided that to Andy for sale before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site. And the kicker is, we are not Dahua's target market - it is the professional installers...

But you do have to be careful with some rebranded OEM cameras purchased from other vendors as they are cameras that are for the Chinese region but have been hacked into English but then are not able to be updated or they will brick. Buying from a reputable source is key to make sure that doesn't happen.

I will take purchasing a camera from Andy for cheaper than from an authorized USA installer all day as I do not need the 1-800 support center.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Our cams is better than dahua brand cams, because guys like @Wildcat_1 @looney2ns @wittaj @sebastiantombs @TonyR @bigredfish here help a lot to make the cams working great. Find the bugs and we debug and make private firmware, always try to get best devices for users. Cameras are not consumer level,it's industrial level, so need do some time on the settings to make them work great.
Our target is to make the system beat down 90% in the world.

 

[wittaj]

The other thing with cloud based is they can change the conditions of the service at any time or jack up the prices, whereas with a camera not dependent on the cloud will not lose functionality and won't cost more later.

For example, many people have a doorbell cam that is dependent on an internet connection. No connection = device doesn't work.

Some have taken away features over time if you do not subscribe to their cloud service.

My neighbor has one that would alert him anytime AI determined a human came to the front door but didn't ring the doorbell.

Now, he only gets notified if they actually push the button. The only way he will get an alert or see the clip of anyone that came to the door but didn't push the button is if he subscribes to their cloud service.

So a large chunk of the capabilities of his doorbell cam was removed simply because he won't subscribe to their cloud service.

 

[mat200]

Example of Ring failure .. Halloween ..

 

[sebastiantombs]

Ring "Ding Dong". Wonder who thought that one up

 

[sebastiantombs]

Don't forget RIng gets hammered every Halloween

 

[fenderman]

Other similar network/site overloads:

April 15 (Tax filing deadiine) - IRS site overloaded.
Black Friday - many retailers sites overloaded.
Christmas - Netflix was overloaded (on one year, at least).

Yes but that doesn't affect crucial video that you need of your premises. The fact that others are also incompetent doesn't solve the ring problem.

 

[looney2ns]

That is evident.

It's apparent you are content with your solution just as much as others on IPCT don't care for it and prefers their solution and that's OK also.

Very few minds seem to get changed on this "cloud-no cloud" topic... eerily similar to political discussions, although I have seen people change their mind about certain cameras, network schemes and installation techniques.

"What ever cranks your tractor", I always say. That and "You can lead a horse to water, but..." (we all know the rest).

As Stan Laurel once said "You can lead a horse to water, but pencils must be led"

 

[JasonA-EV]

The other thing with cloud based is they can change the conditions of the service at any time or jack up the prices, whereas with a camera not dependent on the cloud will not lose functionality and won't cost more later.

There's soooo many things that I can comment on the rest of this post about but this in case it seem most people on this thread or forum keep whining and complaining about "consumer" grade off the shelf solution like Ring ,etc where you just buy it and scroll to the bottom of the page and click "ACCEPT"... Don't like it... don't buy it or ACCEPT it... simple as that..

And to answer your question "The other thing with cloud based is they can change the conditions of the service at any time or jack up the prices," umm, no they can't.. because with true enterprise grade solutions you're going to have a written / formal contract that goes through legal, etc and a TOS, etc... and minimum 1yr+ of service (we have some Verkada clients on 3+ year contracts and these new OpenEye clients on 2+ year contracts).. so no, they just can't JACK UP THE PRICE at any time.

Gotta love the internet and the mis-information out there.. Does the banks jack up your rates on your auto loans / home loans also at any time or change conditions?

OIY VEY

 

[samplenhold]

Does the banks jack up your rates on your auto loans / home loans also at any time or change conditions?

Um, credit card companies do this all the time. Besides, @wittaj is not talking about car loans or enterprise agreements. He is talking about the normal terms and conditions of these consumer grade cams which state in their paperwork that they can change their terms and conditions.

Whining? Question? He never asked a question. That was a statement. I agree with you on the "...Don't like it... don't buy it or ACCEPT it... simple as that...". And that is what this thread is all about, letting folks know that there are better cams out there for equal or less money.

Don't like it, don't read the thread.

 

[TonyR]

Gotta love the internet and the mis-information out there.. Does the banks jack up your rates on your auto loans / home loans also at any time or change conditions?

Actually, most can, depending on their TOS.

Your percentage rates are generally based on making a minimum payment on a schedule. If you are late several times in succession you may see a penalty and/or a rate increase.

Default chronically or completely and you may very well may lose that home or that car. But since you mentioned TOS, I'm sure you knew that....just wanted to insure that everyone reading this thread will remember that, as you put it,..."Gotta love the internet and the mis-information out there."

Life should be about choices.....you see something you like and agree with, go for it...see something on TV that you don't like, turn the channel......move into a neighborhood without doing your due diligence and later don't like the neighbors, the neighborhood, the local schools, the HOA or CC&R's, rules, regs, etc......guess what, it's more than likely on you for not doing your homework.

Lots of folks like stuff I don't care for and vice versa...and sometimes we like/disalike or agree/disagree for totally different reasons. We've become spoiled having so many choices in this country and enjoying the freedom to make those choices. It's something I feel we've taken for granted and don't realize that it's slipping away, ever so gradually.

I'm stopping right there, this is not a political thread (thankfully). Let's make our choices and respect the choices that others make, regardless of how clear it may seem to us that it is the wrong choice....just wrong for us, perhaps.

 

[fenderman]

There's soooo many things that I can comment on the rest of this post about but this in case it seem most people on this thread or forum keep whining and complaining about "consumer" grade off the shelf solution like Ring ,etc where you just buy it and scroll to the bottom of the page and click "ACCEPT"... Don't like it... don't buy it or ACCEPT it... simple as that..

And to answer your question "The other thing with cloud based is they can change the conditions of the service at any time or jack up the prices," umm, no they can't.. because with true enterprise grade solutions you're going to have a written / formal contract that goes through legal, etc and a TOS, etc... and minimum 1yr+ of service (we have some Verkada clients on 3+ year contracts and these new OpenEye clients on 2+ year contracts).. so no, they just can't JACK UP THE PRICE at any time.

Gotta love the internet and the mis-information out there.. Does the banks jack up your rates on your auto loans / home loans also at any time or change conditions?

OIY VEY

Lol, Jacking up the price after 1 year is akin to anytime. Otherwise you need to lock yourself into a multi year solution. I understand that you love selling overpriced cloud reliant nonsense like verkada because it increases your RMR. This entire forum is based on eliminating the need for truck slammers and "professional" wire runners/salesmen like you. We know better. What kind of idiot is going to pay $800 to $1500 PER camera for the device and an annual license. Help us with the bullshit math....