Opinions on Cloud based video surveillance systems ?

[sebastiantombs]

Have a look at this thread -

T-Mobile 5G Home Internet AND Blue Iris

I'm starting this thread simply because I have posts all over the place and someone looking into T-Mobile 5G Home Internet might actually want some info on it prior to getting (or NOT getting) it, from someone that has absolutely nothing to gain whether you get it or not, all in one place.. This...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Nunofya]

You need T-Mobile to get you a public IP address.

Have a look at this thread -

T-Mobile 5G Home Internet AND Blue Iris

I'm starting this thread simply because I have posts all over the place and someone looking into T-Mobile 5G Home Internet might actually want some info on it prior to getting (or NOT getting) it, from someone that has absolutely nothing to gain whether you get it or not, all in one place.. This...

ipcamtalk.com

ft a mm

Left a message yesterday on that thread. Don't understand any of how to set that stuff up.

 

[fenderman]

Everything seems to be so on premise focused when it comes to security while literally every other business systems are in the cloud or connected somehow.

Why are security professional so reluctant to move ahead with technology?

As mentioned in the other posts, cloud is VERY expensive, compressed and wholly reliant on an active internet connection. No reason for that. Way cheaper and much more reliable to keep it local. In fact you can have many local redundancies before you approach the cost of cloud services.
Most importantly, I guess that the cloud based services in general, or more particularly the one you work - eagle eye networks- is shit because you felt the need to promote the idea here without disclosing that you work for a cloud services provider. Sales down, eh? I hate fucking liars like you.

 

[mat200]

Guess I am not going to get an answer to my question ..

Hi @someguywhoworkswithcams

We need real numbers to play this game of

"Everything seems to be so on premise focused when it comes to security while literally every other business systems are in the cloud or connected somehow.

Why are security professional so reluctant to move ahead with technology? "

If you don't understand the reason why, the numbers will show you ..

So the question is very important if you want a meaningful answer:

Q: What is your internet bandwidth? ( down and up ? )

 

[redpoint5]

I go over my data limit 1/3rd of the time at a measly 400 GB per month. Don't know why people would spend their precious bandwidth to offload surveillance. Can't think of a single reason why that would be preferable.

 

[redpoint5]

Are you uploading 4K/UHD videos?
Do you record 24/7, or just motion-detect events?

I typically use about 6GB/month :
View attachment 123860

I upload nothing because I don't "cloud" anything. Some occasional Netflix and working from home consumes it all. They claim I'm among the few extreme data users, but I don't see how considering I watch Youtube videos at the lowest quality just to save data, and probably average about 1hr of Netflix per day.

Fiber is supposedly coming soon, so I should be done with data penalties soon.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

I've used the OpenVPN in my Asus routers successfully in the past. It does VPN for every device connecting through it, by default.

e.g. See

https://support.ipvanish.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005116773-How-to-configure-IPVanish-OpenVPN-in-ASUSWRT-

(You'll need the .ovpn file from the the VPN vendor, and your login credentials)

Be aware that it increases load on the router's processor.
My Netflix quit working: said it detected a VPN (that conflicts with the region/area Netflix thinks I should be at).

Should be noted there is a difference between setting up a VPN client on your router as you've just described vs. setting up a VPN server on your router that you would use a client to connect with when you are away from home. @SouthernYankee offers a great explanation on the differences of the topic in this thread.

 

[Nunofya]

Should be noted there is a difference between setting up a VPN client on your router as you've just described vs. setting up a VPN server on your router that you would use a client to connect with when you are away from home. @SouthernYankee offers a great explanation on the differences of the topic in this thread.

Thanks for chiming guys about VPN's and Asus router. Thing is I Have T-Mobile 5g home internet and I think there's issues with trying to use a router or vpn with it. I set a tplink router in ap mode and I use the asus in router mode it says I have a double nat so cant finish setting up a vpn.

 

[xxHi-Fixx]

This is pretty funny because we have sold and serviced some Eagle Eye stuff. Past the connectivity and hardware issues, the stuff just doesn't work that well. When it's working the video quality is just not great.

The stuff isn't terrible, but I recommend and quote on site 99.9% of the time. Our biggest interest in it was the RMR. But RMR isn't such a priority that we overlook the stuff actually not working.

 

[fullboogie]

I upload nothing because I don't "cloud" anything. Some occasional Netflix and working from home consumes it all. They claim I'm among the few extreme data users, but I don't see how considering I watch Youtube videos at the lowest quality just to save data, and probably average about 1hr of Netflix per day.

Fiber is supposedly coming soon, so I should be done with data penalties soon.

You're going to love fiber. AT&T brought it into my neighborhood last year. I get 600 up/down with unlimited data for $25 a month. This is in the Houston area.

 

[Wolf4Ever]

You're going to love fiber. AT&T brought it into my neighborhood last year. I get 600 up/down with unlimited data for $25 a month. This is in the Houston area.

Agreed had Cox and was paying $150 for unlimited data and had 1gb/35mbps now with att fiber at 2gb/2gb. Thought about the new 5gb but 1gb is plenty and most servers/services can't max out 1gb and are capped. I do a lot of uploading to Google though and wanted the faster upload.

 

[mat200]

Can't speak for "security professionals" (I'm not one), but...

The Cloud-based security cam systems/apps appeal to a different but large class of consumers (like myself).

I did use Blue Iris for about a year, streaming 3 [what was described here as] "sub-par" cams over home WiFi to a local PC (Windows 10, 4th generation Core-i7) not dedicated to BI.
Yes, it did work.

I prefer the simpler access of an app on my smartphone that I can retrieve event recordings from the cloud. The Ring mobile app does a pretty good and reliable (for me) job at that for me, e.g. Ring.com Status

(I do not work for them or any other cloud/cam company)


Consumers like me:

1. Do not want to dedicate a separate PC to security system software.
(BTW, I upgraded my old 4th gen Core-i7 PC to a 10th gen Core-i9 with separate GPU and liquid cooling. I still do limited software development on it)

2. Definitely do NOT want to install/use rack-mount, server-class hardware at home.
(I mean, if I was going to go all the way, I'd want redundant power supply, and halon,
inergen, argonite, whatever fire-suppression system like in a real data center. Just saying..)
And no separate powered-switches: the home network router has ports, and if the cams can't use that a best, that solution is not going to fly with consumers in my class.

3. Do not want to run PoE or other cables all over the house just for cams. Power and coax cables were bad enough.

4. Do not want to deal with managing recording storage: files, folders, backups, etc.

5. Expect simple setup when the cam hardware arrives. Just power it up, a few clicks on a mobile app, and it begins recording movement in front of the cam.
None of that port and stream/channel numbers to enter/deal with, reconfiguring routers to get things to work, etc.

6. Will tolerate lesser video quality (to a fair degree), as long as we can see what's going on.
Have you guys seen military grade security/spy cams (on the other end of the spectrum)? Now that's what I call a real security cam, if I could get/afford one, lol.
Nobody seems to be talking/selling those around here, so that we can at least get an idea of "really high end". Wasn't there one that could pick up the brand name off a golf ball from 10 miles up in the sky?

7. Look for a similar community of users, both appreciating and complaining about their cams. I like being able to see video recordings from others in the neighborhood, just as much as I'd like to share my video recordings with that local community if something weird is happening. Opens up a whole new dimension than just looking at video from your own cam(s), to get the bigger picture of what's going on.

Hi @Natey2

Cloud dependent cameras often fail when I have evaluated them on the most basic minimal viable product requirements ( listed here ):

Security Camera System Minimal Viable Product requirements:
1) It must be Reliable.
2) It must be able to capture good enough images to potentially ID suspects.
3) It must be useful for evidence. [ thus date and time stamps are critical ]

If you really want a cloud dependent camera, that is fine .. though typically I see them failing with #2 .. #1 depends on your internet connectivity .. #3 they're getting better at .. but not all do this well.

Quality of image capture is often very poor with cloud cameras ..

That noted, one option is a hybrid system .. with a good solid core IP PoE system augmented with a few cloud dependent cameras ..

 

[Dan Miller]

There is really no compelling reason to go to the cloud for surveillance, especially if you have multiple cams. A ring doorbell is one thing. One single upload. I have eight 4k cameras, all of them dual stream. Stream 1 is 4k at 8mbps. Stream 2 is 720p at about 1mbps. That's roughly 72mbps or about the same as 3 Blu-Ray discs playing simultaneously that would be uploaded. And why?

Most of the reason the cloud exists for business is LONG term storage of critical data (bank accounts, etc) where the time it would take to do local backups has grown to the point where it is to unwieldly to manage. So by subscribing to a cloud an IT manager essentially offloads all of that work AND responsibility.

Unless my storage at home dies right when an incident happens - not that it couldn't happen, but c'mon... - I store about 30 days or so which is in constant rotation.

I back up my important data to the cloud. My surveillance drives are not part of that.

I use ZeroTier One which is free to give me secure remote access to my Blue Iris Server at the house which works flawlessly. And even with all of my cameras streaming on the Blue Iris mobile page, it is very close to real time.

The cloud is not and never was a "technology" solution. It is a business solution, plain and simple. Meaning those companies are not doing what they do for the benefit of customers, but to make money from them. They "sell" the benefit, but for surveillance there is absolutely nothing that the cloud offers that can't be done way more efficiently locally.

Even smart home systems like Smartthings have recognized the importance of local access and control.

Just my 2₵

 

[mat200]

Example of consumer grade "security camera" captures shared on Nextdoor .. ( certainly most of these are cloud dependent .. )

The Typical picture of a Perp on Nextdoor-type Apps with Consumer Grade Cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, Canary, Wyze, etc.

I like how there are four colors in that image - white, black, and two shades of grey.

ipcamtalk.com

 

[sebastiantombs]

The camera load on my local network is zero with 21 cameras running. They're all on a second NIC and no camera traffic goes through the router at all.

 

[wittaj]

My cameras are on their own isolated network that does not touch the router or the internet. On my isolated NIC, my cameras are streaming between 280Mbps to 350Mbps depending on motion. This is full-on, never stopping to take a breath. Even if someone has a gigabit internet and router, a 3rd of non-buffering 24/7 data will impact its speed. Do the math. Any ISP would throttle you at that.

People will say stuff like "we stream 5 TVs with no problem". Yeah that is because streaming services like Netflix and others buffer the video. It may buffer 15 seconds to a minute or more of video. This allows it to send some video, pause to let something else on the network use the internet, send some more video, and repeat process.

These cameras do not buffer and all full-on nonstop. Pull the internet cable and the surveillance camera stops instantly. Pull the internet cable while watching Netflix and you may get an additional minute of watching the video.

 

[mat200]

So what's your local network usage like for your cams, per month?
My RingPro uses about 6GB/month (Asus Traffic Analyzer graph at msg #27 in this thread). Load on my router is very low, leaving bandwidth for other home-use streaming, etc.

Anyone else uploaded their local cam network usage per month here?

Note: This is a great illustration on why cloud dependent cameras often have greater levels of compression and loss of information compared to on premise .. to reduce bandwidth consumption / costs. Note, the service provider is very much interested in reducing the bandwidth and storage costs - even if the owner / customer / consumer is willing to pay for the outgoing bandwidth.

For me, this is also why I tend to prefer hybrid systems .. a couple of cloud cameras for key areas ( typically the front of the house ) and on premise cameras covering all important views.

This gives a reasonable balance imho considering pros and cons of each system.

 

[wittaj]

Again, as we said in reply to your other post in a different thread - it isn't a full blown rack system taking up half a room lol.

In my case it is an old 4th gen computer. The 2nd GB NIC in the computer was a whopping $10 and a cheap POE switch - heck some have a computer with wifi and ethernet use the wifi as a 2nd NIC for internet access and the ethernet port for the cameras. It isn't expensive and many here do not use a 2nd NIC and simply let the data flow thru their router, but for $10 why not take that load off the router? Far from a full blown media center lol. It's a freaking computer and switch just like you see in any home with a computer. Some folks here are even running it on a laptop. You read way too much into what is needed. Folks can get the computer, 2nd NIC, and simple POE switch to run BI for under $300 if they want, which is cheaper than a comparable NVR. Like any hobby, can you get carried away - yes - and we do have folks here with dedicated rooms for their system, but most here do not. And many here use the computer for other things too like Netflix and email and work just fine.

We get it, you like your Ring system and feel the need to justify its cost. Good for you. Some people are scared of a computer and want that simple plug it in, download the app and scan a QR code and be done with it. Just hope you never have an incident where you needed the system to catch a clean image because then you will see the simplicity comes at that cost.

And as I said in the other post, if someone is wanting to do that type of simplicity system with a better Dahua or Hik camera, the opportunity is there and many here do just that with cameras costing less than Ring and provide better video.

Many here have Dahua OEM cams set up as DHCP and they downloaded the DMSS app and scanned the QR code and now have a cheaper and better camera alternative to Ring without the annual Ring fee. They bought 4 cameras at $110 each and a $40 POE switch ($480 total plus) instead of four $250 Ring cameras ($1,000) and then at some point if they choose can decide to take that $520 savings and buy a refurbished computer for $200 and $60 for BI and still have some money left over.

 

[sebastiantombs]

I wonder if you've ever been in a real data center. A switch and a PC with two NICs plus some hard drives for video storage don't even approach a data center. It all comes down to what you're really trying to accomplish. If you want useable video it does take some hardware, not a data center though. If you want the feeling that you're doing something, virtue signaling in other words, a Ring system is perfect for you.

 

[samplenhold]

Y'all realize that the OP has not been on since post #7 way back on March 16th, the original post date?