Opinions on Cloud based video surveillance systems ?

The Automation Guy

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Actually, I lost a local WD drive (containing other stuff, still under warranty) when I used BI on a home desktop computer; I believe all the constant 24/7 disk-writes did it.

The only .bvr files left/accessible are those that I had pushed to the Microsoft OneDrive Cloud before the local disk demise.
Were you using an enterprise hard drive designed specifically for the constant 24/7 writing that servers and CCTV systems produce or were you using a regular hard drive that isn't designed for this use because it was significantly cheaper?

Personally I use cheaper "consumer grade" drives. I choose this because I feel that nothing captured on my CCTV system is so important that I can't afford to loose it. If there is footage that is important to archive, I back it up to other systems. That being said, I'm not going to complain to the internet when my hard drive fails prematurely due to the excessive wear and tear on it when I know that using an enterprise quality hard drive is the correct drive for this application.
 

wittaj

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Precisely my point earlier: home/consumer grade hardware is not going to cut it for BI use. All this (including the drive-mirroring mentioned earlier) is making it look like a enterprise/server-class setup.

Did someone say they were using an old laptop for BI?? Gotta wonder how that is working out..
Again, you are reading too much into it. Very few of us have an enterprise/server class setup. Most of us bought a tower desktop off ebay. Some will throw a WD purple in it and some don't and use whatever harddrive the computer came with.

Home/consumer grade hardware can cut it. Any NVR someone purchases with an included hard drive is a consumer grade hard drive.

Drive mirroring is optional. Enterprise drives are optional. I took the cheap consumer grade hard drive out of my NVR and added it to my computer and it works just fine.

For someone that is moving from a Ring system that has maybe a few cameras. a laptop can work.

Many here run BI with a laptop just fine. We do not recommend it, but it doesn't mean it won't work. When I demo'd BI, I did it on a laptop and it was fine.

One can set up Blue Iris to send a quick 10-second video to their cloud provider of choice when alerts happen if someone is that paranoid.

We get it, you love your Ring and you are the typical consumer Ring targets that feels overwhelmed about buying a computer and loading BI onto it or setting up an NVR. Ring has made it simple in that regard, but that simplicity comes at a performance in video quality cost.

People have got a system going for $200 bucks. That doesn't sound like enterprise/server class setup to me. How much is Ring per year? In a couple years, the Ring subscription would have paid for the computer and the rest is pocketed.
 

wittaj

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@Natey2 - you seem to be focusing on the @Teken types of this site that have full-blown, Tier 1 server class gear like his picture here LOL

1651107888866.png

When in reality, most of us have a system that looks more like this:

1651108159464.png

Nobody is going to look at this picture and be like that is an enterprise server system there. It looks just like any computer you can buy at Best Buy....

And every once in awhile, someone finds a great deal like @Firefighter that picked up an Optiplex 7040 for $30 at a government auction.

We have people that run BI just fine on older computers, laptops, NUCs, etc. and many use them to watch Netflix, surf the web and check email, etc.

We strongly suggest that people get a dedicated computer for it, but people will try it with what they got and if it works, fine.

Does your Ring provide for 24/7 recording....nope.

I guarantee you that cloud based systems have more downtime than us running locally. A couple months ago those with high end Axis cloud based solution went days without access. And Ring goes down periodically as well.

Our 24/7 recording ensures we don't miss anything. Most of the time my neighbors cloud based systems miss the entire event and they cannot playback what isn't recorded.

Further their system, and every night image posted on the NextDoor type platforms, has yet to provide video quality close to what most of us get here.

Sure a drive may poop out eventually, but most of us here have years of uninterrupted recording. I have spare drives laying around that I can replace in minutes if one goes out.

And of course the option does exist to store video to a cloud provider, whether it be Blue Iris Cloud or one drive or any other cloud based service out there. And this is better than a cloud-based system because this is simply the repository of video and is not needed for the cameras to work, unlike many cloud based cameras.
 

fenderman

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Precisely my point earlier: home/consumer grade hardware is not going to cut it for BI use. All this (including the drive-mirroring mentioned earlier) is making it look like a enterprise/server-class setup.

Did someone say they were using an old laptop for BI?? Gotta wonder how that is working out..
I have over 20 Blue Iris systems. They are all running on either Dell optiplex or HP elite desk / pro desk business pcs. They are not servers they have no redundancies they work just fine. I've had one power supply failure on an optiplex that has been running since 2013 and failed sometime in 2020. This thing has been running 24/7 and most of its life actually at a very high load of 50 to 60% because this was prior to the substream option in Blue Iris. All the other systems most of which are 2014 4th generation Intel based processors have been running with no issues. Additionally all but a 3-4 these systems has the original drive recording video. Understand that the reason most folks get the surveillance drives is because the pc comes with a small .5 - 2tb drive. They want 4-8tb. At that point the price difference between a surveillance drive and any other drive is minimal. Some folks OPTIONALLY drive mirror or spit cameras among drives. Do you have redundancies for your internet connection, your router, your AC power, your ring powersupply? I loose power an internet several times a year, I literally cannot remember my last hard drive failure.

You are completely clueless and at this point it seems like you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts.
These HP and Dell Business machines are basically the same as the home units but for the fact that they run Windows pro and make disc swapping and servicing easier.
Speaking of laptops, I had a Lenovo laptop running for about 6 years running blue iris. It was a refurbished unit so it had been previously used. The purpose of this unit it was a cheap solution for a reception desk. I ran can HDMI replicator off it to display the cameras in another room as well. When it did fail it was only the screen that failed the unit itself works fine. I replaced it with another very used laptop and it's been running fine ever since. So while Blue Iris on a laptop is not recommended particularly because it can easily be taken, it does work especially since Blue Iris introduced significant efficiency with substreams.
 
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The Automation Guy

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Precisely my point earlier: home/consumer grade hardware is not going to cut it for BI use. All this (including the drive-mirroring mentioned earlier) is making it look like a enterprise/server-class setup.

Did someone say they were using an old laptop for BI?? Gotta wonder how that is working out..
I have to agree with Fenderman. At this point, you are either the dumbest motherfucker around, or the biggest troll. Either way, it's time to say goodbye to you.
 

TonyR

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Precisely my point earlier: home/consumer grade hardware is not going to cut it for BI use. All this (including the drive-mirroring mentioned earlier) is making it look like a enterprise/server-class setup.
Having been a member of IPCT for almost 8 years that is not my take on an equipment grade for running BI well and reliably.

All PC's and their hardware need to chosen and/or upgraded to run certain software and to perform their assigned task efficiently and reliably. They also need stable, reliable power and be properly vented/exhausted and kept clean internally, as excessive heat not only can slow the CPU, but can contribute to early HDD failure and accelerate capacitor failures. This applies to any and all PC's regardless of their duty or what software they are running.

After having been a BI user for 9 years and having built and placed a dozen BI servers of non-enterprise grade in businesses and homes since 2014, at no time have I experienced ANY failures of ANY of them except one: In 2020 I loaned an old Dell Inspiron 530 that was 13 years old to a client with BI on it to see if he liked using BI over his NVR. Since it was an experiment on MY budget I let it write video clips to the WD Blue 500GB hard drive. The drive was already 6 years old (the original Samsung died in 2014) and he had ran it for almost 2 more years when the 8 year old WD Blue failed. IMO, not too bad for an old HDD that was NOT purpose-built for the rigors of surveillance duty.

I realize that my experience with only a dozen BI servers is not the definitive word on the issue but since 2014 I have read many, MANY other users' experiences and issues on IPCT and do not recall that a significant number had problems with BI running on non-enterprise hardware, just the expected poor performance and reliability of not using surveillance-rated HDD's for the video clips.

For a BI install the only strict requirement for me is to install a WD Purple to write the video clips to and when the opportunity comes up, put Windows 10, BI and the BI "db" folder on a Samsung 860 or 870 EVO SSD.
 
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wittaj

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Cloud-based systems rely on their system not going down and your internet not going down.

I am sure most of us have lost internet for a period of time. Local based solutions continue operating during that time.

All one needs to do is look up on downdetector or any other type website and find when Ring or your ISP has been down. Heck even Rings own Status system has shown outages 3 times just this month. It appears they average at least 3 incidents per month.

Meanwhile, most of us with local systems have experienced zero downtime. Yeah we have the occasional member that posts their HDD pooped out or some other issue, but it is localized to one person.

Just pulled it up for Ring....interesting comments LOL (none of which any of us with local systems experience):

1651149737121.png
 
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Teken

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@Natey2 - you seem to be focusing on the @Teken types of this site that have full-blown, Tier 1 server class gear like his picture here LOL

View attachment 126477

When in reality, most of us have a system that looks more like this:

View attachment 126482

Nobody is going to look at this picture and be like that is an enterprise server system there. It looks just like any computer you can buy at Best Buy....

And every once in awhile, someone finds a great deal like @Firefighter that picked up an Optiplex 7040 for $30 at a government auction.

We have people that run BI just fine on older computers, laptops, NUCs, etc. and many use them to watch Netflix, surf the web and check email, etc.

We strongly suggest that people get a dedicated computer for it, but people will try it with what they got and if it works, fine.

Does your Ring provide for 24/7 recording....nope.

I guarantee you that cloud based systems have more downtime than us running locally. A couple months ago those with high end Axis cloud based solution went days without access. And Ring goes down periodically as well.

Our 24/7 recording ensures we don't miss anything. Most of the time my neighbors cloud based systems miss the entire event and they cannot playback what isn't recorded.

Further their system, and every night image posted on the NextDoor type platforms, has yet to provide video quality close to what most of us get here.

Sure a drive may poop out eventually, but most of us here have years of uninterrupted recording. I have spare drives laying around that I can replace in minutes if one goes out.

And of course the option does exist to store video to a cloud provider, whether it be Blue Iris Cloud or one drive or any other cloud based service out there. And this is better than a cloud-based system because this is simply the repository of video and is not needed for the cameras to work, unlike many cloud based cameras.
Don't know how I got roped into this conversation - but. :thumbdown: This is just a hobby for me like the vast majority of people here. A distinction should be made that with almost everything in life there is a slow and steady progression to do better.

Many of the forum members will simply buy a Ring and stop.

While others will see the value or the lack thereof and realize devices like Ring were a good starting point to get something in the home that was easy to deploy and integrate.

Nothing beats quick & easy for the 99.99999% of the population.

As noted up above, the other side of the coin is where people start to do more research. Some even come to IPC and find out the video security market is a whole new level of awesome that will provide higher performance while offering great value.

Many at that point stop as this new found capability outstrips the Ring type hardware easily a hundred fold.

Than, there are those who just like technology, like to tinker, push the envelope, in everything they do. :lmao:

I don't want anyone who reads my replies or see's something I've shared (personal photo's) to believe this is done to brag or to say Do This.

It's not, I share this information because it gives others a glimpse of the possibilities. Should they wish to go that extra mile to achieve more resiliency, redundancy, and fail over. Many of the people just in this thread know the value of the used Enterprise market has to offer and the value that can be obtained.

So, no . . .

Nobody has to buy new or spend tens of thousands of dollars to obtain Tier 1 network hardware! :thumb: I've been extremely lucky over the years in obtaining hardware pennies on the dollar via Surplus, Government Auctions, and the used markets like eBay.

I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, never won the lottery, but am extremely patient.

Regardless of all of the above working in a very serious Enterprise / Military background that supports millions of servers & power related systems. I wanted to try my hand at home because if it works in Enterprise it's surely going to work and be over the top at home! :rofl:

Just some quick photo's of many projects that seemed to be never ending in my home:

This is a small 15U server cabinet just getting deployed to house the 4th isolated and independent network in my home. At the time of this photo I was just completing the first stage of wiring. I had to stop there as the next step of power validation testing was underway. At the top of the rack is APC SPD power bar and below that is a ATS (Automatic Transfer Switch).

Both of the 120 VAC lines are tied to very large APC UPS battery packs.

The tests involved killing power to measure and validate the transfer time and to confirm the actual run time based on the load present. All of this had to be done dozens of times as other systems provide load shedding and power management to insure there is never more than 30% load.



There are four 42U server cabinets that house the bulk of the network infrastructure in a secure room in my home. This is one of the four server cabinets back in the day just getting a dry fit. As stated earlier one of my big hobbies is my network infrastructure.

My goal as it is at work is to insure high availability, resiliency, backup, and complete fail over. All four racks mirror the hardware you see here minus some incorporate custom made / designed hardware only seen in the military.



I don't worry about running out of power when the lights go out. As when the POCO goes off line all of the critical systems are backed by a online pure sine wave UPS system(s). There are, you guessed it, four of these massive banks and two other really large LifePo4 packs that provide isolated power for a fail safe system.



All of the above is to give enough time for a smooth transition to a NG generator for long term power. A forth isolated system is hybrid solar array that supplies power to a huge LifePo4 battery bank. Seen here this is one of the two isolated solar arrays that is capable of generating 10 KWH per day. More than enough to recharge the battery banks that provide the needed back up.



All of this is and was done to insure Local First vs Cloud First and 99% of the things I use or rely on is locally accessible and managed. If there is something that relies on the cloud that device is a Nice to have but it won't impact me if it goes away etc. I am heavily invested in Home Automation and the primary driver for me is to have the most energy efficient home I can.

As such I've spent my entire life finding ways to save money all the while enjoying the comforts of home and not have to give up the nice to have's Below is just another example of my next generation of energy management to help reduce my energy consumption.

Instead of a 40 ~ 250 watt computer system these consume a mere 2 ~ 10 watts a piece!



At the end of the day people should do what they feel meets their needs. If its a Ring sure why not, if its something more capable like Dauhua / Hikvision - Go for it.

Just enjoy what you have and if you ever get that itch to do better you know the place to ask! :thumb:

Rock On . . .
 

wittaj

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I brought you in @Teken because your system is what I think of when I hear enterprise/server class system!

I wanted to simply point out that one can do as much or as little to accomplish local based surveillance. It's a hobby to you and you pick stuff up cheap, so why not. We all have our hobby that people think we are nuts with LOL.

I bet your system is online and operational at a higher percentage than cloud-based providers!
 

Teken

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I brought you in @Teken because your system is what I think of when I hear enterprise/server class system!

I wanted to simply point out that one can do as much or as little to accomplish local based surveillance. It's a hobby to you and you pick stuff up cheap, so why not. We all have our hobby that people think we are nuts with LOL.

I bet your system is online and operational at a higher percentage than cloud-based providers!
I was really just kidding around about getting roped in. :rofl: Thought it was funny to see an email for a thread I never replied or monitored for come into my inbox. Had to take a look and saw your reply and thought some clarity should be offered to the members here.

You're correct my uptime is extremely high as seen here:

There are dozens of network monitors that help manage and track the health status of all the infrastructure such as the security camera's.



Others monitor the other systems that help keep the home comfortable and safe.



Other network monitors cover critical fail over systems that must be 100% reliable in their operations. This image capture is from a hard shut down test underway. To help me validate how long this condition would exist before it was captured and relayed to me and for other systems to react and kick in.



Other systems have a dual use role to provide live, intermediate, and long term historic recall of events.



This image capture was for one of six locally deployed NTP GPS Servers so I don't have to rely on any outside connection like the Internet. I was monitoring the CPU usage and the temperature at that moment to see what a specific load had and the results of were on the hardware.

 

wittaj

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That is higher than Ring, one of the few that actually report their uptime %

1651172811487.png
 

Teken

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That is higher than Ring, one of the few that actually report their uptime %

View attachment 126544
Those who monitor do so because that's the only way to know what's happening. You'll always hear lots of people say I think everything is OK, That's just a blip and won't ever happen again

Anyone who has ever been involved with something that is mission critical knows. Feelings don't mean anything and only imperial facts matter. As such, really smart people came up with paid ware and lots of awesome free ware (Open Source).

So, almost anyone can use the same to provide them the FACTS, not feelings . . . :thumb: Again, I'll stress all of the things I do is because my life experiences, background, and training. Pushes me to use all the great tools available to all of us for use today. As noted up above 99.9999999% of the population don't ever think about accurate time keeping on their computer systems.

That's fine as it rarely ever impacts them in a material way.

Then, there are the avid users who use Windows Time that is on by default in almost every computer today. Then, there are the super keen who say that's not good enough and install and deploy their very own software based NTP Server! :cool:



Than, you have the crazy nerds like me who say I don't want to rely on the Internet. I'll just prop up my very own Stratum 1 NTP GPS Enabled hardware to obtain PPS (Pulse Per Second) uS time! :lmao: The image you see below are five of six locally managed NTP GPS enabled time servers that obtain their uS time from the four different GPS satellites: GPS, BeiDou, GLONASS, Galileo

The one system which indicates Outlier is a wireless system under test. Even though the time metrics aren't as awesome compared to the other four. This system is and was designed to be completely off grid, isolated, and is intended to provide that Nth degree of fail over.

Lightning, power outage, network outage, has no impact on this specific time server.

 

johnfitz

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This is just a hobby for me like the vast majority of people here.
That answers a question I've had that's really been nagging me just getting into this stuff... Thanks
 

johnfitz

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A "hobby" which happens to produce an extremely valuable output: video proof and evidence.
It's funny that you say that because that's my conundrum... I'm really just trying to get as far as the R in DORI... a really good R and I'll be satisfied... so I feel like I'm just a hobbyist here :)
 

fenderman

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Yep, there's a reason they have different HDD product lines. Besides their Purple line (for NVR-type use), their Black (gaming) and Gold (enterprise?) lines can probably handle that too.

WD could decline warranty on other drive lines (Blue and Green - mostly for home use; not sure about Red) subject to NVR-type (constant 24/7 disk-writes) use, depending on how this limitation clause of theirs is interpreted:

"
• The product was not used in accordance with Western Digital specifications and instructions.

• The product was not used for its intended function (for example, desktop drives used in an Enterprise environment).
"
Nonsense. What do you think folks were using before surveillance drives that are a very recent introduction (2014)? WD had an audio video drive but I assure you no one was using those drives in DVR's and NVR's. You are simply misinformed or lying.
Besides, My 20+ blue iris systems all most all of which have the original oem drives for video storage I manage over 100 pc's many with hdd that backs up the ssd in the system. I have never had a drive failure. I have never in my lifetime overseeing hundreds of pcs had to make a warranty claim for a drive. Drive failure is extremely rare and when/if the do fail its when are very new or very old.
That said the warranty on your ring camera is 1 year. lol.
 
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It's funny that you say that because that's my conundrum... I'm really just trying to get as far as the R in DORI... a really good R and I'll be satisfied... so I feel like I'm just a hobbyist here :)
I am retired. I sort of have lots of time. But I travel a lot too. This HAS become a hobby for me (some say obsession). I really enjoy most aspects of the hobby, especially helping folks here. The hobby aspect of it got me into LPR. I was very satisfied with my system before I got into LPR so I thought 'why not?'.
 
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I am retired. I sort of have lots of time. But I travel a lot too. This HAS become a hobby for me (some say obsession). I really enjoy most aspects of the hobby, especially helping folks here. The hobby aspect of it got me into LPR. I was very satisfied with my system before I got into LPR so I thought 'why not?'.
Pretty much same here, this foray was purely a need for me, and my personality drove me to satisfy that need in the best manner possible. It has turned into a side-hobby, but the value of its presence and my need for it remain primary. LPR was also the pinnacle of awesomeness for me, I'm pegging plates in both directions on my street with very high success rate, I haven't calculated the percentage, but the only ones I don't get are either non-reflective or just degraded older plates.
I'd venture to say the bigger aspect to the IP cam hobby for me at this point is frequenting this forum numerous times daily to keep tabs on technology, learning, other people's projects, and the occasional drama.
 
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In the beginning, I bought all the wrong equipment. I mean I was using an HP laptop and cameras with Chinese firmware. I thought things were okay until I found this forum. What an eye opener.

Now, I have a Dell i7-10700 with a 2060 gpu (repurposed from another job so more expensive than I needed). Nearly all cameras are from @EMPIRETECANDY and all UniFi networking hardware.
 
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