New Camera Shopping part 2

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
Andy could tell you the mount for sure for this camera, but it looks close to this one:


You could also remove part of the soffit, install this on the rafter and then cut a small whole in the soffit and place back up.

Here was how someone else did it:

Awesome, thanks for the resources! The bracket seems the way to go. Of course I would have to try and get some kind rubber grommet or silicone to seal up the edges of the hole. Either way good stuff. Thanks for all the help.
 
As an Amazon Associate IPCamTalk earns from qualifying purchases.

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
PFB300C ceiling mount +PFA111 PTZ adapter. This part can cut off to short the length.

View attachment 83656
Thanks Andy. I will definitely look into should I decide to go the PTZ route. I just purchased the cam below off Amazon to cover the front left corner of my house in order to capture some video of vehicle traffic on the street. Once I finish researching the front of my house, I’ll probably be in touch with you to discuss further purchases.
Loryta IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E
 

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
Alright, I’m back to possibly get more recommendations. I’ve got an IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E on the front left corner angled to the road to capture license plates and identify vehicles that come up and down the road. My next point of action is to cover my drive way and the road in front.
According to the dimensions I obtained from the ip calculator, the camera on the front left of the garage (facing directly down the driveway and to the right) would roughly have a horizontal FOV of 56 and a distance of ~64 feet.
The camera on the right front side of the garage (facing in the same direction as the license plate cam, but covering driveway) has roughly the same dimensions as previous cam; 61 HFOV with a distance of 69 feet.
In short, my neighbor directly across the street has decided to move. Now, I have to worry about potentially more riff-raff moving in. No matter who the neighbor is, I want to make sure I get complete coverage of the front of the house for whenever I have to go back out of town for extended periods. I would like for use to have the ability to provide a decent description of any individual in these parameters, as well as vehicle information.
I figured the requested HFoV and distance measurements would prove to be rather impossible. On top of that, the only light source in the front is a small LED utility pole light located in the backyard of the house to the left across the street. In other words, super low light conditions.
I have tried to add cameras into the calculator one at a time based on the previous suggestions. However, I cannot find a decent image on the simulated person/license plate based on the PPF. It seems as though the 5442s would not provide a good solution. I may be wrong, the simulations on the calculator may not be a good reference, but that’s all I have at the present. I would like to attempt a turret solution, just b/c I do not want to broadcast the existence of cameras to the new neighbors, but having a turret is not an absolute. Thoughts?

1615044383593.png
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,428
Reaction score
47,540
Location
USA
Have you dialed in the LPR cam in to capture plates? In most instances we can only run B/W with a fast 1/2000 shutter to get plates and all we see are head/tail lights and plates and nothing else? It shouldn't be used as a person overview cam also, although you may get some of that during the day.

To cover the driveway and the road you will need 3 cameras - on on either side of the garage in a cross-cross pattern and then one for the road. To cover the front of the house across the street will be another camera for IDENTIFICATION purposes. If all you need to do is be able to see something is happening but not be able to ID them, then you can probably get away with a camera that is focused for the street with that front of the house in the background.

Take a look at this chart to help explain. To identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that is a popular camera choice, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera. Realistically, it is more like 10 feet or less.

1604638118196.png


Personally I have found that IDENTIFY is a lot smaller number than these charts say, but I am a fan of zoom and details! On the flip side, I have found that for my neighbors that I recognize their shape, walk, gait, etc. can be recognized much further than the tables say.

Further, each one of these fixed cams are focused for what each manufacturer deems the correct distance with which to use the camera....which means further out it will be blurry and why you cannot digital zoom an 8MP camera and get details farther out. A 2MP varifocal optically zoomed to that area 55 feet away will blow away an 8MP 3.6mm fixed lens installed in the same location and trying to digitally zoom in to the same area 55 feet away.

This reason alone is reason why people should recognize that a fixed lens isn't the see all, be all camera! But neither is a varifocal camera because that is optically focused for the target area and the target area for IDENTIFICATION purposes isn't a large footage number like people think it is.

So that focus distance these cameras have does mean that further away will be blurry and close up will be blurry. And they differ based on the optics and sensors in them. Personally I have found the Dahua to be better for a larger distance range than the Hikvision, but someone else may feel opposite. But if you have the wrong lens in the wrong place, that is when we experience less than optimal results.

And what you will find then is at night, unless you have A TON of light, these distances further out will be cut back tremendously. Maybe in the day you can recognize 55 feet out, but it may cut back to 20 feet at night. We have to run faster shutters to eliminate blur and the faster the shutter, the more light needed.

With so little light, your cameras will be in B/W with IR. Do not be sold on marketing phrases like ColorVu, Darkfighter, Full Color, etc. as all cameras need light. Now an overview camera set to auto shutter that has it slow to allow a lot of light in so that you can run it color to be able to recognize clothing and car color is fine, but recognize auto shutter will result in motion blur and possible ghosting.

That is why many of us have multiple cameras, each one selected for an intended purpose and dialed into the area we are trying to cover. Too many people make the mistake of trying to have one camera do too much. One camera, regardless of how great the specs and performance is, cannot be the be all, see all camera.

 

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
Have you dialed in the LPR cam in to capture plates? In most instances we can only run B/W with a fast 1/2000 shutter to get plates and all we see are head/tail lights and plates and nothing else? It shouldn't be used as a person overview cam also, although you may get some of that during the day.

To cover the driveway and the road you will need 3 cameras - on on either side of the garage in a cross-cross pattern and then one for the road. To cover the front of the house across the street will be another camera for IDENTIFICATION purposes. If all you need to do is be able to see something is happening but not be able to ID them, then you can probably get away with a camera that is focused for the street with that front of the house in the background.

Take a look at this chart to help explain. To identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that is a popular camera choice, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera. Realistically, it is more like 10 feet or less.

1604638118196.png


Personally I have found that IDENTIFY is a lot smaller number than these charts say, but I am a fan of zoom and details! On the flip side, I have found that for my neighbors that I recognize their shape, walk, gait, etc. can be recognized much further than the tables say.

Further, each one of these fixed cams are focused for what each manufacturer deems the correct distance with which to use the camera....which means further out it will be blurry and why you cannot digital zoom an 8MP camera and get details farther out. A 2MP varifocal optically zoomed to that area 55 feet away will blow away an 8MP 3.6mm fixed lens installed in the same location and trying to digitally zoom in to the same area 55 feet away.

This reason alone is reason why people should recognize that a fixed lens isn't the see all, be all camera! But neither is a varifocal camera because that is optically focused for the target area and the target area for IDENTIFICATION purposes isn't a large footage number like people think it is.

So that focus distance these cameras have does mean that further away will be blurry and close up will be blurry. And they differ based on the optics and sensors in them. Personally I have found the Dahua to be better for a larger distance range than the Hikvision, but someone else may feel opposite. But if you have the wrong lens in the wrong place, that is when we experience less than optimal results.

And what you will find then is at night, unless you have A TON of light, these distances further out will be cut back tremendously. Maybe in the day you can recognize 55 feet out, but it may cut back to 20 feet at night. We have to run faster shutters to eliminate blur and the faster the shutter, the more light needed.

With so little light, your cameras will be in B/W with IR. Do not be sold on marketing phrases like ColorVu, Darkfighter, Full Color, etc. as all cameras need light. Now an overview camera set to auto shutter that has it slow to allow a lot of light in so that you can run it color to be able to recognize clothing and car color is fine, but recognize auto shutter will result in motion blur and possible ghosting.

That is why many of us have multiple cameras, each one selected for an intended purpose and dialed into the area we are trying to cover. Too many people make the mistake of trying to have one camera do too much. One camera, regardless of how great the specs and performance is, cannot be the be all, see all camera.

To be honest, I have not even had a chance to hang it yet. I plan on doing that after a funeral today and optimizing it over the next few days/nights.
For the criss cross pattern, I do have the LPR pointed to the left, and then 2 other cameras in the front of the garage as you mentioned. Actually, I currently also even have a camera (Lorex) on the left front corner of the middle partition of the house painted to left. Technically, that should provide me with three views of the driveway and road in front of the house. When I was testing out a camera from Andy last month, I placed it on the front corner of the left to simulate. From the picture below, it gathered light really well and still provided the BW option if needed. Keep in mind this was just in auto settings at the time. Thinking I could place these on the corners of the garage like I am wanting. Again, I was hoping to go with a turret so it would not be as noticeable. I believe this was the IPC-HFW5422T-ASE.
1615047208408.jpeg
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,428
Reaction score
47,540
Location
USA
Dang that is a bright light. But you will notice that once you take it off of auto settings, your range will drop tremendously. The goal is to IDENTIFY not observe. Auto is good to see far out, but identification goes to crap especially in lower light conditions. Even with that bright light if a total stranger walked up to your vehicles and door checked, they would be a blur.

What about running a camera out to your mailbox? You could hide one in that easily.
 

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
Yes, I love those new LED lights as they are very bright. Plus, the cam was pointed directly at it. You are right, I tested that cam in several directions, to include my desired in this post, and motion did create a blur. I wound up placing this cam on the back of the house which looks directly at a light like this. I was able to adjust the setting for better picture, but noticed it is still not good enough to identify.
The mailbox is out of the question at the current time. I’ve thought about it before, but I have no good way to hide it. I would also like to steer away from installing a pole/post in the yard. I could get away with that in the back, but not crazy about the front.
Starting to wonder about a PTZ again, but man, those things are huge. But heck, if I had to criss cross cameras, might as well go that route and use a Lorex cam as spotter. Again, I would like to remain inconspicuous and not have the neighbors think I’m a perv.
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,428
Reaction score
47,540
Location
USA
Paint the PTZ to match the house and they will never notice. I have more cameras and PTZs than I care to admit to and very few notice them.

You would be surprised how oblivious people are. My neighbor on a corner lot has a fence running parallel to the public sidewalk so the fence is literally a few feet off of the sidewalk. He has cameras mounted on each corner (4 feet high) to record people going up and down the sidewalk and gets great shots BTW. They have never been touched in over 2 years.

Just ask @Holbs that has had a crazed fan knife his tires and put glue on his keypad despite multiple cameras and did this repeatedly over a course of several months and eventually was able to get a restraining order on her...I love the picture of her looking right at the camera and still glueing up his keypad (sorry Holbs LOL)...but like she didn't even attempt to cover up the camera with glue so she could continue her damages less than two weeks later...

1615047327754.png
1615047275063.png


 
Last edited:

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
I'll cite my three rules of cameras -

Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

I'll also add that it is "best practice", from a security standpoint, to install cameras so that they are looking back at the adjacent camera. This gets them coming or going and insures you can see if anyone tries to sneak up on them to disable them. If I were you I'd add another camera, or two, on the front at the extreme right in the drawing you posted above. You're leaving a big open area unprotected without doing that.
 

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
Yes, I love those new LED lights as they are very bright. Plus, the cam was pointed directly at it. You are right, I tested that cam in several directions, to include my desired in this post, and motion did create a blur. I wound up placing this cam on the back of the house which looks directly at a light like this. I was able to adjust the setting for better picture, but noticed it is still not good enough to identify.
The mailbox is out of the question at the current time. I’ve thought about it before, but I have no good way to hide it. I would also like to steer away from installing a pole/post in the yard. I could get away with that in the back, but not crazy about the front.
I'll cite my three rules of cameras -

Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

I'll also add that it is "best practice", from a security standpoint, to install cameras so that they are looking back at the adjacent camera. This gets them coming or going and insures you can see if anyone tries to sneak up on them to disable them. If I were you I'd add another camera, or two, on the front at the extreme right in the drawing you posted above. You're leaving a big open area unprotected without doing that.
I currently have that area covered, but with junk cameras. I plan on covering the entire front side and replacing existing cameras, but I’m having to chop into small sections (like the garage and driveway) as I work through budget constraints. My next section will be working on the middle partition of the house for the immediate front yard, and then next phase will be covering the sides of the house, then finally, the back. And you’re right on target; cameras are addictive. My wife laughs every time I pull this site up bc she knows there’s another purchase in the near future.
 

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
If I need to place this information in another post/section, please let me know. Alright, so here is the HFW5241E-Z12E I have currently set up for license capture. I've noticed that during the day, the picture seems to skip; for example in the clip below, there appears to be a staggering of time. The main reason for posting this, is to attempt to dial in the camera for day settings. On this clip, I cannot read the license plate too well, even on my BI computer (not even attempting with the app). On other pics, I can make out the plate information, but cannot tell the county listing or sometimes the state.
I am admittedly utilizing the auto settings for the day time, and know that I will definitely have to adjust for the night. However, I would like to focus on the day for the current time. In addition to the clip, I will post screenshots of my settings from the Picture and Exposure tabs for the day.
1615228174067.png1615228205890.png
View attachment FrontLeft.20210308_090000_1.mp4
 

looney2ns

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Messages
15,521
Reaction score
22,657
Location
Evansville, In. USA
If I need to place this information in another post/section, please let me know. Alright, so here is the HFW5241E-Z12E I have currently set up for license capture. I've noticed that during the day, the picture seems to skip; for example in the clip below, there appears to be a staggering of time. The main reason for posting this, is to attempt to dial in the camera for day settings. On this clip, I cannot read the license plate too well, even on my BI computer (not even attempting with the app). On other pics, I can make out the plate information, but cannot tell the county listing or sometimes the state.
I am admittedly utilizing the auto settings for the day time, and know that I will definitely have to adjust for the night. However, I would like to focus on the day for the current time. In addition to the clip, I will post screenshots of my settings from the Picture and Exposure tabs for the day.
View attachment 84224View attachment 84225
View attachment 84226

You need more zoom.
Rarely will a camera give you it's best performance with settings at Default. also your angle is too sharp.
 

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
You need more zoom.
Rarely will a camera give you it's best performance with settings at Default. also your angle is too sharp.
I'm right there with you sir. The picture you see was just the initial placement for the camera. I plan on rotating the cam more to the left today after I get home in order to get more of the driveway. Would that be the best direction to resolve the angle issue you mentioned?
Below is a screenshot of the zoom and focus tab. I have adjusted the zoom in button to about the 3/4 mark. As I make adjustments to that, the focus line automatically moves with it. However, what in the world is the Speed drop down box? It has a selection of 1, 5, 20, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out what that is.
Sorry, for all the questions. I have tried to read through Cliff notes and the wiki, but my time has been greatly consumed with increased training I have been having to take. I'm trying to get all of this taken care of, b/c I have a feeling that another extended trip out of town is in my near future.
1615229594185.png
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,428
Reaction score
47,540
Location
USA
X2 more zoom. You need to zoom in to the frame to about this or even tighter. Can you angle it any more up the street to the left as far as you can but still keep the area under 175 feet or less? I think you get to about that driveway and you will be able to start reading plates. But do not be afraid of zoom. Remember the sole purpose for this camera is to read plates and nothing else, so you want the plate to be as large as possible on the screen. You need at least a 1/2000 shutter.

1615229507131.png

How is your network ran - are cameras going through the wifi router or completely isolated from the internet?

What is your FPS and iframes? What code and is codec on? Drop it to 15 FPS and iframe of 15 and H265.
 
Last edited:

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,428
Reaction score
47,540
Location
USA
I'm right there with you sir. The picture you see was just the initial placement for the camera. I plan on rotating the cam more to the left today after I get home in order to get more of the driveway. Would that be the best direction to resolve the angle issue you mentioned?
Below is a screenshot of the zoom and focus tab. I have adjusted the zoom in button to about the 3/4 mark. As I make adjustments to that, the focus line automatically moves with it. However, what in the world is the Speed drop down box? It has a selection of 1, 5, 20, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out what that is.
Sorry, for all the questions. I have tried to read through Cliff notes and the wiki, but my time has been greatly consumed with increased training I have been having to take. I'm trying to get all of this taken care of, b/c I have a feeling that another extended trip out of town is in my near future.
The speed drop down box is how fast it moves from one setting to the next. You want to be on 1 when fine tuning.

You will need this to be on 1 when finding out the actual zoom and focus number. You will then also want to use the sunrise/sunset utility a member here created to force this camera to the right focus and zoom for day and night. If you have this set on 20 or 5, then your focus and zoom number will be to that nearest number and then your zoom and focus will be off.

You will need to run 1/2000 shutter at night and will need to turn the camera into B/W during the day to find the focus number to input into the utility or else at night your camera will be trying to focus all night because the image is too dark.
 
Last edited:

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
X2 more zoom. You need to zoom in to the frame to about this or even tighter. Can you angle it any more up the street to the left as far as you can but still keep the area under 175 feet or less? I think you get to about that driveway and you will be able to start reading plates. But do not be afraid of zoom. Remember the sole purpose for this camera is to read plates and nothing else, so you want the plate to be as large as possible on the screen. You need at least a 1/2000 shutter.

View attachment 84227

How is your network ran - are cameras going through the wifi router or completely isolated from the internet?

What is your FPS and iframes? What code and is codec on? Drop it to 15 FPS and iframe of 15 and H265.
OK, I have adjusted the zoom a little more. I think I have it close to what you cropped, but I will not know for sure until I can get home and adjust. I also adjusted the day settings to a mode of Shutter Priority, and set the shutter at 1/2000 per your recommendations.
Below is a screenshot of the video stream settings. I have the encoding set at H.264 as I have BI hardware accelerated decoding set up as Intel, and my CPU is an i5-4590.
As far as the network; the cameras are on their own separate network, and that network is isolated from the internet. The only access to the cameras is through the network on which my BI server sits.
1615230598081.png
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,428
Reaction score
47,540
Location
USA
30FPS is way too high. Even though the camera is "capable" of it, the little CPU is maxing out and that is the cause of the stutter. Drop it and the iframe to 15FPS. You can probably drop the bitate down a bit as well. 8192 should be fine.

All we care about is getting the plate, we do not care if the video is smooth or not. In fact, movies on the big screen are shot at 24FPS, so we certainly do not need above that for surveillance cameras.

I run my Z12E at 10 FPS. It is the shutter speed that captures the plate, not how many FPS there are.

In general, anything over 15FPS for these types of cameras are overkill.
 

srvfan

Getting comfortable
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
618
Reaction score
2,356
Location
USA
30FPS is way too high. Even though the camera is "capable" of it, the little CPU is maxing out and that is the cause of the stutter. Drop it and the iframe to 15FPS. You can probably drop the bitate down a bit as well. 8192 should be fine.

All we care about is getting the plate, we do not care if the video is smooth or not. In fact, movies on the big screen are shot at 24FPS, so we certainly do not need above that for surveillance cameras.

I run my Z12E at 10 FPS. It is the shutter speed that captures the plate, not how many FPS there are.

In general, anything over 15FPS for these types of cameras are overkill.
Roger that, thank you. I have adjusted to 15FPS on both and dropped bit rate to 8192. Now, to get home and change the angles!:)
 
Top