New Camera Shopping part 2

[srvfan]

So I am in the process of adding and replacing existing cameras. The cameras will be mounted under the soffit, roughy 7-8’ high. I am aware that that height is probably discouraged, but so far, it has worked decently for the existing cameras (plus, I really don’t want to mount anything to the wall of the house; just OCD). On the front of the house (where I am starting the project), I want to keep and eye on the driveway, road, and the property line which is roughly 15-20’ away. That measurement increases as you reach the corner of the house as the bulk of my property is on the side and to the rear of the house.
The road dead ends in front of my house, so there should not be a whole lot of worry about fast moving cars. However, I have had morons pop the curve and drive in the front yard to turn around in order to get back on road. The front of the house lacks light so I will definitely need IR.
My goal for the cameras is to identify the traffic coming up my road (vehicle or pedestrian). I would like to obtain facial characteristics, clothing color, vehicle make and tag numbers in case anything were to happen, such as a drunk moron popping the curb and driving thru my yard at night.
Based upon the overall consensus I have read in the forums, I have narrowed the selection down to two Dahua cameras; the HFW5442T-AS-LED and the HFW5442E-ZE. It seems as though the 5442E-ZE would provide the most illumination, but I am concerned about the motorized lens. It seems like it would take longer to get back in focus, plus if something happened at night, I may not be able to get to the camera in time to zoom in on the issue. The T-AS-LED at 3.6 mm seems to be a better option regarding overall focus. However, I would be sacrificing illumination at 66’ versus 164’.
Any thoughts or suggestions as to which camera could provide the most bang for the buck and application to my situation? Worse case scenario, I guess I could get both and try them side by side in each location to see which one shines the most.

 

[looney2ns]

The varifocal cameras are not designed to be used to zoom in and out all the time. They are used to set the field of view you need at time of install, then left alone.
You need to pick cameras for their specific useage,
Like a camera dedicated to capturing license plates, it's job is just that and nothing else.
The 5442 series of cams are great, pick the proper one for the intended job.
There are many lens options in that series. See the reviews of many of the selections on this web site.
Study this: Cliff Notes
And this attachment

 

[srvfan]

The varifocal cameras are not designed to be used to zoom in and out all the time. They are used to set the field of view you need at time of install, then left alone.
You need to pick cameras for their specific useage,
Like a camera dedicated to capturing license plates, it's job is just that and nothing else.
The 5442 series of cams are great, pick the proper one for the intended job.
There are many lens options in that series. See the reviews of many of the selections on this web site.
Study this: Cliff Notes
And this attachment

Thank you looney, I was not aware that the varifocals were just for focusing one time and done. Even though I will admit it, that definitely shows that I am a newb to cameras. A definite testimony to my experience being limited to Lorex plug and play crap.
And thank you for the pdf and reference to the cliff notes. I have used the wiki multiple times, but failed to read the cliff section. Will definitely slow down my hastiness and study both so I’m not wasting money.

 

[wittaj]

If you want the ability to zoom in and out you need a PTZ.

 

[sebastiantombs]

If you want license plates, that takes a dedicated camera, especially at night. the shutter speed needs to be high, even in your case, and all the camera can normally see is the license plate and head or tail lights. The rest of the frame is either black or too dark to be useable.

LPR

LPR

Licence Plate Reader cameras

ipcamtalk.com

Review-Dahua IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E AI Varifocal Bullet

Courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY at Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group And EmpireTech-Andy @ Amazon.com: Price Approximately $220US shipped via DHL...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[srvfan]

If you want the ability to zoom in and out you need a PTZ.

I just ran across a thread where someone showed auto track with a PTZ. Holy cow, that seems worth looking at and then using another camera designated for license plates. Definitely worth looking at.

 

[srvfan]

If you want license plates, that takes a dedicated camera, especially at night. the shutter speed needs to be high, even in your case, and all the camera can normally see is the license plate and head or tail lights. The rest of the frame is either black or too dark to be useable.

LPR

LPR

Licence Plate Reader cameras

ipcamtalk.com

Review-Dahua IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E AI Varifocal Bullet

Courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY at Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group And EmpireTech-Andy @ Amazon.com: Price Approximately $220US shipped via DHL...

ipcamtalk.com

Thank you. In review, it seems as though an lpr may not work in my situation. Unfortunately with my yard layout in relation to the road, I’m not sure an lpr would be practical. Probably the only clear shot I would get is if someone turned around in the neighbors driveway across the street. In that case, I could probably utilize one of my existing cameras and focus on that one area. However, it still may be worth considering during my planning.

 

[wittaj]

Yes, the PTZs are awesome and getting better all the time!

But what you are asking for above needs to be accomplished with several cameras, each selected and placed with a specific goal in mind.

Please review the great info above and pick the right camera for the right location.

Your comment "The T-AS-LED at 3.6 mm seems to be a better option regarding overall focus. However, I would be sacrificing illumination at 66’ versus 164’" shows how much you still need to learn LOL. No 3.6mm camera will give you usable footage for the police at 66 or 164 feet away. Plus once you take the camera off of auto shutter at night to actually be able to get usable video without ghost or blur, the ability to see anything useful at that distance is going to be zero because the faster the shutter to get clear images means more light is needed and thus the range of the camera is never what the specs say...

Look at this chart below - the person would need to be within 20 feet to recognize them with a 3.6mm lens. As I tell my neighbors with their 2.8 or 3.6mm cams on their house saying they can recognize people at the street, I am like that is only possible if you already know the person and be able to recognize them based on their walk, clothing, body type, etc., but put a total stranger in the frame and the picture will be fairly useless. I recognize most of the people I see on my 2.8mm overview cam, but a total stranger goes by and not much you could tell the police, maybe clothing color, but nothing to identify them.

None of my neighbors cameras provided usable footage when a door checker came through here. One guy had his car less than 10 feet from the camera and it was blur and ghost city with motion and was totally unusable. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but passed on the sidewalk by the street 50 feet away and it was my varifocal zoomed into a specific location that got the money shot that allowed him to be tracked down by police and my neighbors all got their stuff back.

You can detect someone at 75 feet and beyond and maybe be able to "recognize" them if you know them and can tell their body dimension, walk, etc., but will never be able to identify a stranger or have a good enough image to share with the police. And certainly not at night with a 3.6mm lens dialed in for no blur or ghost...

You would need probably around 30mm for identification at 66 feet. In cameras, a 3.6mm versus a 30mm results in a dramatic improvement over a distance.

And you will see because of that small lens size, that if you digital zoom, it is a pixel blurry mess real fast.

As far as LPR is concerned, you would be surprised how much offset angle you can go to and still get plates. Are you able to angle the camera such that it is aiming down the street a house or so down or is a tree in the way. Your statement "I would get it if someone turned around in the neighbors driveway across the street. In that case, I could probably utilize one of my existing cameras and focus on that one area." This would only be possible if you have enough optical zoom on the camera and you optically zoom in to that location. Unless that driveway is 10 feet away, you won't get it with even a 12mm lens. Are you able to read a plate of a car parked in your neighbors driveway? If not, you won't be able to read it in motion of someone turning around quickly.

 

[srvfan]

Yes, the PTZs are awesome and getting better all the time!

But what you are asking for above needs to be accomplished with several cameras, each selected and placed with a specific goal in mind.

Please review the great info above and pick the right camera for the right location.

Your comment "The T-AS-LED at 3.6 mm seems to be a better option regarding overall focus. However, I would be sacrificing illumination at 66’ versus 164’" shows how much you still need to learn LOL. No 3.6mm camera will give you usable footage for the police at 66 or 164 feet away. Plus once you take the camera off of auto shutter at night to actually be able to get usable video without ghost or blur, the ability to see anything useful at that distance is going to be zero because the faster the shutter to get clear images means more light is needed and thus the range of the camera is never what the specs say...

Look at this chart below - the person would need to be within 20 feet to recognize them with a 3.6mm lens. As I tell my neighbors with their 2.8 or 3.6mm cams on their house saying they can recognize people at the street, I am like that is only possible if you already know the person and be able to recognize them based on their walk, clothing, body type, etc., but put a total stranger in the frame and the picture will be fairly useless. I recognize most of the people I see on my 2.8mm overview cam, but a total stranger goes by and not much you could tell the police, maybe clothing color, but nothing to identify them.

None of my neighbors cameras provided usable footage when a door checker came through here. One guy had his car less than 10 feet from the camera and it was blur and ghost city with motion and was totally unusable. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but passed on the sidewalk by the street 50 feet away and it was my varifocal zoomed into a specific location that got the money shot that allowed him to be tracked down by police and my neighbors all got their stuff back.

You can detect someone at 75 feet and beyond and maybe be able to "recognize" them if you know them and can tell their body dimension, walk, etc., but will never be able to identify a stranger or have a good enough image to share with the police. And certainly not at night with a 3.6mm lens dialed in for no blur or ghost...

You would need probably around 30mm for identification at 66 feet. In cameras, a 3.6mm versus a 30mm results in a dramatic improvement over a distance.

And you will see because of that small lens size, that if you digital zoom, it is a pixel blurry mess real fast.

As far as LPR is concerned, you would be surprised how much offset angle you can go to and still get plates. Are you able to angle the camera such that it is aiming down the street a house or so down or is a tree in the way. Your statement "I would get it if someone turned around in the neighbors driveway across the street. In that case, I could probably utilize one of my existing cameras and focus on that one area." This would only be possible if you have enough optical zoom on the camera and you optically zoom in to that location. Unless that driveway is 10 feet away, you won't get it with even a 12mm lens. Are you able to read a plate of a car parked in your neighbors driveway? If not, you won't be able to read it in motion of someone turning around quickly.

Our road is a small private road in the county, and my driveway is extremely short. With the current placement of my Lorex camera (under soffit above the driveway), I can get a clear read of the make and model of vehicles as well as license plates on people that turn around in neighbors driveway. The license plate is a little fuzzy, but when I review on the NVR, I can make it out a lot of times. However, that is only in the day time, night time is a totally different story; cannot even see the plates in my driveway. Because of the layout of my extremely small front yard, I have no place to utilize an LPR outside of mounting to the mailbox or placing in the soffit on a corner. The layout of each lot in the neighborhood is bad, but I feel as though mine is the worst.
As far as “Your comment "The T-AS-LED at 3.6 mm seems to be a better option regarding overall focus. However, I would be sacrificing illumination at 66’ versus 164’" shows how much you still need to learn LOL”; I already admitted that in my reply to looney. In that reply I mentioned that I’m coming from the sole experience of a Lorex system of plug and play. From what I have read on cliff notes and wiki, I realize that I have to learn about more than just cameras, but about layouts and angles.

 

[wittaj]

But when do we usually need plates - at night... That is awesome that you can get the plates in the day. Try running a 1/2000 shutter at night and can you still read the plate in the driveway? Now granted that camera will be completely black and useless for anything else at night.

What is wrong with putting a camera on a corner of the house and a soffit and angled to get the road and a plate - that is what most of us do? Unless you have trees in the way, why can you not do this?



Oh I know you admitted you needed to learn more, so I just wanted to take the opportunity with something you specifically said and point out that what you mentioned (identifying at distance with a 3.6mm fixed length) is not going to happen - especially at night even with an auto shutter and that will give a great image, but be crap for motion when you need it.

And they are not that much more, so go with varifocals so that you can dial in the distance you are trying to cover. Just this month we have seen posts with people purchasing a 3.6mm and upset they cannot see faces at the street and another that purchased 3.6mm and asking if the lens can be switched out by him (the answer is yes you can LOL), but go with the varifocal and give yourself that flexibility to adjust it to what you are trying to cover.

 

[srvfan]

But when do we usually need plates - at night... That is awesome that you can get the plates in the day. Try running a 1/2000 shutter at night and can you still read the plate in the driveway? Now granted that camera will be completely black and useless for anything else at night.

What is wrong with putting a camera on a corner of the house and a soffit and angled to get the road and a plate - that is what most of us do? Unless you have trees in the way, why can you not do this?

View attachment 82731

Oh I know you admitted it, I just wanted to point out specifically with something that you mentioned to not go by what a camera specs it can see at night - in real life it is at least half that unless you go with an auto shutter and that will give a great image, but be crap for motion when you need it.

As far as the shutter at 1/2000 at night; admittedly, that is an example of failure on my part. Outside of setting motion areas, I pretty much left everything as auto. However, in my defense, the web GUI sucks for Lorex cameras. I was hoping to update firmware to Dahua but cannot find a way to do so with the cheap E891AB cameras. I quit using the Lorex NVR and ran straight into BI, so I have to rely on the web. The plugins they recommend are horrible and do not work, so it’s a long process to test each setting.
Placing a camera on the corner is normally not a big issue. I’ve got two corners I could potentially try, but the downspout on both corners are in bad spots. I use the Jim Odell method of having an aluminum bar to support the camera between the soffit channel and aluminum flashing. In order to get past the downspout issue, I would have to hang the camera at the very edge, and I’m concerned about the weight.
Going back to the layout of the small driveway and yard, if I use one corner, a lot of the camera FOV will be covered by my truck sitting in the driveway. If I use the other corner, I may miss a good shot due to the slope and curve in the road as well as the downspout issue mentioned before. It will just be a trial and error issue in my end, and that just aggravates me bc I normally have a detailed plan before I go into anything. I thought I was in good shape when I first got that cheap Lorex system. However with all the information regarding settings, camera specs, etc, I realize I’m in a whole other ballpark. That’s why I’m glad that you folks mention problems with just looking at specs and grabbing the first flashy camera that you see.

 

[wittaj]

Unless the Lorex camera is not a dahua brand, the web gui is identical to dahua LOL (well maybe something is left off as Lorex strips some out).

I use the aluminum bar and works just fine with the camera.

Yeah we have all been there...I started with a box kit (or 2, or 3 ) before I got smart LOL.

 

[srvfan]

Unless the Lorex camera is not a dahua brand, the web gui is identical to dahua LOL (well maybe something is left off as Lorex strips some out).

I use the aluminum bar and works just fine with the camera.

Yeah we have all been there...I started with a box kit (or 2, or 3 ) before I got smart LOL.

What I meant to say is that I cannot even view the camera on the web GUI. It just presents a message to install the web plugin, and even then, the picture is cut in half. Extremely hard to make a change to the setting and then try to go back to the plug-in to view the change. It just kills me the money I spent on the system, I could have bought a couple of good cameras and gone down the BI path. Thought I was getting a good deal at the time. This says it all

 

[sebastiantombs]

Try Pale Moon browser, the 32 bit version. I use that for my one, and only, POS SV3C that needs a plug-in.

 

[srvfan]

^^Will have to look into that. I can tell you this, once I get the cameras and the setup that completes my needs, I’m gonna find some sucker to whom I can sell this Lorex crap. Heck, by that time, I may even look at giving the pos away.

 

[Mark_M]

The varifocal cameras are not designed to be used to zoom in and out all the time. They are used to set the field of view you need at time of install, then left alone.

"All the time" is the key word here. "At the time of install, then left alone" is @looney2ns 's opinion on them. 'Usually' "at the time of install" is my contribution that that statement.
There is examples for VF cameras to change focal distance, but it's not for chasing someone down a driveway.

Example I come to is profiles for day and night;
An entranceway has a VF camera, during the day it takes a wide area of personnel entering. At night time the camera zooms in to a small opening of this entrance, to help capture better detail of someone entering after hours. Obviously this is very unique, not every situation has the point of interest in the centre of frame.
I couldn't use this example on my driveway because it's to the left of frame, I would need a PTZ. But if I spend the money on a PTZ I could of got two cameras.
Adjusting focus is a very particular scenario which not many people have. This is where I support looney2n's opinion.

Other uses is when your surveillance needs change. It might be a good investment to use a VF camera so you can move it's physical position later in it's lifetime. Maybe you upgrade and this 'old' camera is in the backyard.


A building complex I know of has majority of their cameras VF and PTZ's. Events happen and concerns shift to a different area.
Spares are all VF so they work anywhere a camera is replaced.

What I advice is not to be using VF for motion/alarm events. As Looney2n's, OP and others expect; the delay time to focus would miss the action. Seconding to that; is timing focus change to happen when no event is taking place.

If you want the ability to zoom in and out you need a PTZ.

Needs for a PTZ is more PT movements as well. For a corridor there's not need to PT, so a VF with zoom is enough.
There also comes size restrictions. Not everyone wants a large PTZ on their house.

It leads back in a circle to my statement above with "I would need a PTZ. But if I spend the money on a PTZ I could of got two cameras.". PTZs with auto tracking are awesome! But use enough fixed cameras to capture all the action first.
It is always annoying to look back at footage to find the PTZ looking in another direction, so have something to capture the whole area!!

 

[sebastiantombs]

My Reolink has already gone to the junk heap in the sky along with an SV3C. The second SV3C will follow once the weather lightens up here, to be replaced with a 5442T-AS/6mm. No more junk cameras here after that and I wouldn't foist that crap on my worst enemy.

 

[wittaj]

^^Will have to look into that. I can tell you this, once I get the cameras and the setup that completes my needs, I’m gonna find some sucker to whom I can sell this Lorex crap. Heck, by that time, I may even look at giving the pos away.

Speaking of Lorex LOL...I do not chat to my neighbors that I have cameras. Some have noticed, but most do not. When we had a break in here a couple years ago or so and the neighbors with cameras were talking how their great arlo, ring doorbell, Lorex, Foscam, and reolinks (all 2.8mm or 3.6mm lenses) captured that something happened but the police couldn't find any useful video from them (one had their car broken into and his camera is less than 10 feet from his car) and they were chatting how this is just an accepted fact from camera systems. I just stood there smirking to myself.

One of them joked that my cameras probably didn't catch anything since I don't have a car on the driveway and they skipped me. I let them see what my cameras captured and they were blown away. The money shot that got all their stolen stuff back was my varifocal 50 feet away zoomed in to a spot on the sidewalk at the street where the perp walked past and my LPR got their plate. They were shocked my 2MP cameras were blowing away their 4K cameras...and one with sense started buying cameras like mine since they would work with his Lorex DVR. He was all ticked that his $1,300 Lorex 4k box kit not even 6 months old was being beat by my older 2MP cameras LOL, but he recognized now what is preached on this site about not chasing MP and went with 2MP varifocal cams to replace his 4K cams...

 

[srvfan]

Speaking of Lorex LOL...I do not chat to my neighbors that I have cameras. Some have noticed, but most do not. When we had a break in here a couple years ago or so and the neighbors with cameras were talking how their great arlo, ring doorbell, Lorex, Foscam, and reolinks (all 2.8mm or 3.6mm lenses) captured that something happened but the police couldn't find any useful video from them (one had their car broken into and his camera is less than 10 feet from his car) and they were chatting how this is just an accepted fact from camera systems. I just stood there smirking to myself.

One of them joked that my cameras probably didn't catch anything since I don't have a car on the driveway and they skipped me. I let them see what my cameras captured and they were blown away. The money shot that got all their stolen stuff back was my varifocal 50 feet away zoomed in to a spot on the sidewalk at the street where the perp walked past and my LPR got their plate. They were shocked my 2MP cameras were blowing away their 4K cameras...and one with sense started buying cameras like mine since they would work with his Lorex DVR. He was all ticked that his $1,300 Lorex 4k box kit not even 6 months old was being beat by my older 2MP cameras LOL, but he recognized now what is preached on this site about not chasing MP and went with 2MP varifocal cams to replace his 4K cams...

Yep, the fact of not chasing MP is now drilled into my head. This much I have learned and now know after all these forums, lol. Only problem with you letting them see what you captured, is now they may expect you to monitor the neighborhood so they don’t have to spend the money to upgrade.

 

[wittaj]

Yep, the fact of not chasing MP is now drilled into my head. This much I have learned and now know after all these forums, lol. Only problem with you letting them see what you captured, is now they may expect you to monitor the neighborhood so they don’t have to spend the money to upgrade.

Yep...one of the reasons why I don't like telling neighbors! But the opportunity to rub in the one's know it all face every time an incident happens and I ask them if their expensive arlos caught anything is worth it LOL. We get our fair share of door checkers and his cams have yet to provide useful video.

And it caused the one with Lorex to update and two neighbors without cameras to get good cameras from Andy here, so I guess that is a win. Andy appreciates the business lol.