Which device(s) are actually performing analytics?

[nathandclements]

So I'm here because I appear to be having some ONVIF compatibility problems between my new NVR and a random smattering of old/off-brand IP cameras, and some of the googling and forum reading I've done has left me with a big question.

Which device(s) are actually performing video analytics?

In ye olden days of analog cameras and DVR's, you just hooked up a video feed and the DVR handled all the motion sensing and whatnot. Is that not the case with NVR's and IP cameras?

I was able to connect my ONVIF cameras to my new Wisenet ARN1610S NVR and they display video, and I can record and playback. But it refuses to let me setup any sort of analytics. No motion detection, tamper detection, etc. In looking through manuals and talking to a few people, everything asks "is motion detection enabled in the camera?" or stuff about mapping ONVIF events to NVR events. So it's seeming to me that the video analytics (at least of the ARN-1610S) are non-existent? It's somehow just relying on in-camera analytics?

If this is true, this just seems like an interoperability nightmare. I was under the impressing that if both devices were ONVIF compliant, they'd "just work" together.

Hoping someone can enlighten me a bit, because Google isn't getting me there.

 

[wittaj]

To ensure full compatibility, it is best to match brand of NVR and cameras.

While ONVIF is supposed to make it easier to mix/match, the truth of the answer is depends.

Even though they may both be ONVIF compatible, that simply means it will pull in the video stream.

Advanced features may not be compatible and may not work.

Even as a standard, there is no "standard" that every manufacturer follows.

Audio rarely follows a standard. Things like AI triggers, heat mapping, people counting, etc. rarely follow a standard.

In reality, ONVIF is a paid designation, so a camera can set up their protocol however they want, but if they belong to ONVIF, they can slap ONVIF on their stuff. Some manufacturers are better than others at providing a standard that can be used with other devices.

https://www.onvif.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/onvif-brand-standards-20220315.pdf

 

[nathandclements]

To ensure full compatibility, it is best to match brand of NVR and cameras.

While ONVIF is supposed to make it easier to mix/match, the truth of the answer is depends.

Even though they may both be ONVIF compatible, that simply means it will pull in the video stream.

Advanced features may not be compatible and may not work.

Even as a standard, there is no "standard" that every manufacturer follows.

Audio rarely follows a standard. Things like AI triggers, heat mapping, people counting, etc. rarely follow a standard.

In reality, ONVIF is a paid designation, so a camera can set up their protocol however they want, but if they belong to ONVIF, they can slap ONVIF on their stuff. Some manufacturers are better than others at providing a standard that can be used with other devices.

https://www.onvif.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/onvif-brand-standards-20220315.pdf

So is this how all NVR's typically work now, or are there systems that have analytics built-in, and are therefor more widely compatible with various cameras? Looking at B&H at various NVR's it was very unclear.

 

[wittaj]

If you read the NVR specs closely, they will give two sets of numbers on rated performance - one if the cameras are doing the heavy lifting and one if the NVR does - but you will find that most NVRs cannot do all the heavy lifting and the analytics would be confined to just a few channels.

If you want a system that you can mix and match camera brands and have the system do the analytics then you need to look at something like Blue Iris with a computer.

 

[alastairstevenson]

I was able to connect my ONVIF cameras to my new Wisenet ARN1610S NVR and they display video, and I can record and playback. But it refuses to let me setup any sort of analytics. No motion detection, tamper detection, etc. In looking through manuals and talking to a few people, everything asks "is motion detection enabled in the camera?" or stuff about mapping ONVIF events to NVR events.

Not all ONVIF-compatible cameras generate ONVIF events - it depends on what version and ONVIF feature the camera has implemented.

A simple way to test what events if any the cameras generates is to use 'ONVIF Device Manager'

ODM - Browse Files at SourceForge.net

Device Manager for ONVIF-based Network video devices.

sourceforge.net

The PC needs to be on the same network as the cameras and have an IP address in the same range as the cameras.
Presumably your cameras are on the NVR PoE ports, in which case ODM may be able to access the cameras if you connect the PC to an unused PoE port.
If not, you'll need to connect the camera to the LAN and power it separately.
The assumption here is that the NVR PoE ports are standards-compliant and will not provide power without a valid PoE handshake.

Give ODM some valid logon credentials (top left of the window) and it should find the cameras automatically and show lots of useful information.
If the camera generates motion events for example, you will be able to see them in the Events page.
If no motion events show - there will be nothing to trigger motion recording in the NVR apart from what any NVR analytics may provide.

 

[mat200]

So I'm here because I appear to be having some ONVIF compatibility problems between my new NVR and a random smattering of old/off-brand IP cameras, and some of the googling and forum reading I've done has left me with a big question.

Which device(s) are actually performing video analytics?

In ye olden days of analog cameras and DVR's, you just hooked up a video feed and the DVR handled all the motion sensing and whatnot. Is that not the case with NVR's and IP cameras?

I was able to connect my ONVIF cameras to my new Wisenet ARN1610S NVR and they display video, and I can record and playback. But it refuses to let me setup any sort of analytics. No motion detection, tamper detection, etc. In looking through manuals and talking to a few people, everything asks "is motion detection enabled in the camera?" or stuff about mapping ONVIF events to NVR events. So it's seeming to me that the video analytics (at least of the ARN-1610S) are non-existent? It's somehow just relying on in-camera analytics?

If this is true, this just seems like an interoperability nightmare. I was under the impressing that if both devices were ONVIF compliant, they'd "just work" together.

Hoping someone can enlighten me a bit, because Google isn't getting me there.

welcome @nathandclements

"In ye olden days of analog cameras and DVR's, you just hooked up a video feed and the DVR handled all the motion sensing and whatnot. Is that not the case with NVR's and IP cameras?"

That is the power of IP devices like IP PoE cameras .. they can do a lot of the compute and then signal the NVR .. that is the compute moves to the edge devices.

The NVR can also do compute .. however the idea is that the IP cameras themselves can do much of the typical work ..

of course, this complicates things as ONVIF does not advance as quickly as Dahua's or Hikvision's own APIs .. and the NVR needs to understand those APIs .. thus the general rule, try to match the NVR / Camera OEMs as well as their "smart" levels / tiers .. yes, it does get complicated.

 

[nathandclements]

Not all ONVIF-compatible cameras generate ONVIF events - it depends on what version and ONVIF feature the camera has implemented.

A simple way to test what events if any the cameras generates is to use 'ONVIF Device Manager'

ODM - Browse Files at SourceForge.net

Device Manager for ONVIF-based Network video devices.

sourceforge.net

The PC needs to be on the same network as the cameras and have an IP address in the same range as the cameras.
Presumably your cameras are on the NVR PoE ports, in which case ODM may be able to access the cameras if you connect the PC to an unused PoE port.
If not, you'll need to connect the camera to the LAN and power it separately.
The assumption here is that the NVR PoE ports are standards-compliant and will not provide power without a valid PoE handshake.

Give ODM some valid logon credentials (top left of the window) and it should find the cameras automatically and show lots of useful information.
If the camera generates motion events for example, you will be able to see them in the Events page.
If no motion events show - there will be nothing to trigger motion recording in the NVR apart from what any NVR analytics may provide.

I have an overkill wallmount netwrok rack with PoE switches on a UPS that all my network stuff, including cameras, goes to. Using ODF was one of the first things I did, and 3 out of the 5 cameras I'm using show up and I can see events. What's even more annoying is I can see events in the Wisenet Mobile app, and I can see a lit of events in the Playback function of the NVR. But I have no ability to do any events setup on the NVR itself.

It is clear at this point that the reason the NVR was so affordable is because it doesn't do very much. I see it specifically states (Compatible with ONVIF S), which I now know just means streaming. eyeroll I don't really want to use cameras from strictly that manufacturer, so I guess I'll be looking at other solutions, like Blue Iris. I was just hoping to have an easy rack-mount solution that didn't require me to dedicate a lot of time and brain power to.

Before I go down the BI rabbit hole, can it do the following stuff:
Motion detection, license plate recognition, face detection, line cross detecting, from any video source? Even rtsp?
Send me notifications on my phone when motion is detected?
What about audio from cameras?

 

[wittaj]

Yes BI can do all of that and much more. Line cross detecting isn't as simple as drawing a line, but the motion detection options in BI are numerous and can be modified to fit just about any scenario.

It can generally accept video from any source other than cams that are proprietary like Ring, Arlo, Nest, etc. Some have found some hacks, but Ring for example won't let a video feed stay live for more than 15 minutes before it shuts it down. But then again none of us would be using those proprietary type cameras anyway.

It has a free trial, so download it on a windows PC, hit demo, add a camera and start playing.