Service hardware requirements for 8-10 4K (8mp) cameras

[atom631]

Hi,

My current Blue Iris V5 server is runnning an i5-2500K, 8Gb DDR Ram and a 2TB WD Red storage drive. It is powering 6x Hikvision 3mp cameras and 1x Amcrest 3mp Cam (for indoor). Blue Iris itself has never given me any issues. My Hikvision camera on the other hand never really had a good image, especially at night.

Im looking to replace all my Hikvision cameras with Amcrest 4K turret cams. Im going with Amcrest because they seem to integrate really nicely with my Ring Alarm Pro security system. I currently have a Reolink and one of the Hikvisions hooked up to Ring and they are sluggish whereas the Amcrests refresh the screenshot every 30sec and when I bring up the live feed it only takes 2-3 seconds vs Reolink and Hikvision taking 30 sec+

With that - Is my currenty server specs adequate enough to run 8x 4K Amcrest cams plus the 1x 1080p Amcrest indoor cam? If not, what should I be looking to spec out?

 

[wittaj]

It comes down to your settings. If you took advantage of every optimization in the wiki, including substreams, it may work, but keep in mind a 2500 is pretty old. But old machines can still be capable as this POST shows.

If you decide to upgrade, look for an i5-8500 as that will give you the best flexibility for the future.

Further, keep in mind that Amcrest 4K will be 4K cameras stuffed on a sensor designed for 2MP and a 2MP camera would be better, especially at night. Maybe you have a lower end Hik that is the same and overstuffed MP on a small sensor.

In addition, Ring needs a 1080P or lower resolution to integrate with it, so you would have to downgrade anyway (or use the substream).

It is best to pick a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio if you care about night performance. Chase sensor size, not MP.

 

[atom631]

@wittaj Thank you for this. Essentially, if I need to get a new processor, then I need a new motherboard and RAM also at the very least. This has me wondering if maybe I should just go the NVR route. I dont have a need to tinker or add any additional cameras to my home other that what I described above. so a 16ch NVR would work fine for me. Do you recommend a specific one?

Also - as for the cameras - this is good know. So basically, 4K is waste since the sensor is made for 2.1MP. Are there any 4K cameras that will give me excellent night vision, integrate well with Ring (need this functionality for my family - young kids and wife that cant be bothered with having several apps to manage) and are decently priced (say 100-150?)

 

[wittaj]

You will find that all NVRs are not created equal and the cost to get an NVR to handle 7 or 8 cameras will cost more than a computer LOL.

Keep in mind that Ring can only work with 1080P and lower cameras, so why waste the money for higher MP cams only to downrez them?

Ring requirements are 1080P or less and ONVIF compliant, so something like Dahua and Dahua OEM (Empiretech/Loryta, Amcrest, Lorex) or Hikvision and Hikvision OEM cams would be good choices.

There is no 4K camera on the market with an ideal sensor for under $200, so any 4K camera you find for less than that will be on a smaller sensor.


Any 4K camera on smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor will be horrible for night vision.

Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera. The camera you are looking at was designed for 2MP, so when they pop an 8MP lens on it, the processor is still the same and has to work harder. In some situations that is problematic.

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor:

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

 

[atom631]

@wittaj wow. that is a significant difference.

So, is the sweet spot 4mp and 1/1.8" sensor for image quality vs hardware overhead? If so, what camera would you recommend ?

Also - as for Ring - im not really using it to do anything other than live stream the cameras for my family to see. So I know the cameras typically have 2 streams and It would be better for me to point the sub stream to Ring, but I havent figured out how to do that yet. I do have a 512gb sd card slotted into the alarm pro base station for some captures, but i fully expect to rely on Blue Iris or an NVR to do the actual recording.

 

[wittaj]

Yes, to many 4MP is the sweet spot for these types of cameras.

Folks are finding that the 4K cameras with the larger sensor produce a much better image, but the depth of focus is rather small and things tend to be blurry expect for an ideal distance.

The 5442 series cameras are the king of the hill cameras.

5442-ZE varifocal

and the

5442 fixed lens

Yeah, as long as you can feed the substream to Ring, then you can go with a higher MP cam.

 

[atom631]

@wittaj thank you. These prices are within reason. Do you think if I went with these, my BI Server should still be updated?

Also - what exactly will the varifocal lens do for me over the fixed? Will it zoom on something if it detects motion further in the distance?

 

[wittaj]

The only way to know for sure is to try it. If you are using substreams, I think you will be ok.

The varifocal allows you to set the field of view for the area you want to IDENTIFY someone.

Varifocal is a set it and forget it camera. It does not zoom in and out based on motion - that is a PTZ.

The fixed lens offers you the ability to see wider field of views, but the IDENTIFY distance is a lot closer to the camera.

A varifocal lens allows you to IDENTIFY at further out distances, but that comes at the cost of a smaller field of view.

A well defined system will have both - fixed lens for wide angle OVERVIEW purposes and the varifocals optically zoomed in to pinch points for IDENTIFY at distance.

See this thread showing the differences.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[fenderman]

@wittaj Thank you for this. Essentially, if I need to get a new processor, then I need a new motherboard and RAM also at the very least. This has me wondering if maybe I should just go the NVR route. I dont have a need to tinker or add any additional cameras to my home other that what I described above. so a 16ch NVR would work fine for me. Do you recommend a specific one?

Also - as for the cameras - this is good know. So basically, 4K is waste since the sensor is made for 2.1MP. Are there any 4K cameras that will give me excellent night vision, integrate well with Ring (need this functionality for my family - young kids and wife that cant be bothered with having several apps to manage) and are decently priced (say 100-150?)

Should definitely go NVR. Then when you are dissatisfied you can come back and we can discuss your options.

 

[looney2ns]

Study here: Cliff Notes
The cameras in that list are outdated, but all the other info is good.

Read the many many reviews that are here.

 

[looney2ns]

You can get excellent replacement Pc's for BI under $200 these days.
One example for $115.00 See here
The newer ones, would probably be more energy efficient than what you have now.

 

[atom631]

You can get excellent replacement Pc's for BI under $200 these days.
One example for $115.00 See here
The newer ones, would probably be more energy efficient than what you have now.

Thank you. I was also thinking, I have an older gaming PC that I was going to sunset, but perhaps I can convert it to my BI server. It has an i7-4770k, 16Gb ram and its running a GTX 980ti GPU (if somehow i can take advantage of hardware acceleration). its not a very efficient machine, but im sure its better than my current server. what do you think?

 

[wittaj]

Hardware acceleration isn't needed anymore. That was only needed back before substreams were introduced. The substreams allowed other CPUs without QuickSync to be used. For kicks I disabled it and deleted the driver and my system ran fine LOL.

A GPU is only needed if you plan to go heavy on CodeProject instead of using the built-in AI of the cameras. But many are showing the CPU version of CodeProject is more stable than the GPU version, so you should be fine with a 10th gen processor.

Around the time AI was introduced in BI, many here had their system become unstable with hardware acceleration on (even if not using DeepStack or CodeProject). Some have also been fine. I started to see that error when I was using hardware acceleration several updates into when AI was added.

This hits everyone at a different point. Some had their system go wonky immediately, some it was after a specific update, and some still don't have a problem, but the trend is showing running hardware acceleration will result in a problem at some point.

However, with substreams being introduced, the CPU% needed to offload video to a GPU (internal or external) is more than the CPU% savings seen by offloading to a GPU. Especially after about 12 cameras, the CPU goes up by using hardware acceleration.

My CPU % went down by not using hardware acceleration.

But if you use HA, use plain intel and not the variants.


A 4th generation is still very capable.

My humble i5-4590 still humming along with 30+ cams:

I see people posting about their i7-xxxx system bogging down with less than 10 cameras so I wanted to update my setup. I have ~33 cams running on my BI system: HP Elitedesk 800 G1 tower i5-4590 @ 3.3GHz 16GB ram 12TB total purple drives for storage 30+ total cams currently - 22 cams visible in...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[fenderman]

Thank you. I was also thinking, I have an older gaming PC that I was going to sunset, but perhaps I can convert it to my BI server. It has an i7-4770k, 16Gb ram and its running a GTX 980ti GPU (if somehow i can take advantage of hardware acceleration). its not a very efficient machine, but im sure its better than my current server. what do you think?

You're willing to invest several hundred in an NVR but not into a PC?

 

[atom631]

You're willing to invest several hundred in an NVR but not into a PC?

Well no, if a $115 PC will do the trick, that certainly seems like a better option. Originally my thought was if I need a new processor/motherboard/ram then it would be in the 600-700 range.

however truth be told, BI is a bit overwhelming for me with my very limited knowledge (as you can tell by this thread). Ive had my BI server running since 2015 with little issue. I know I never fully optimized it, which may be why my Hikvision cameras (btw - this the model# for them: DS-2CD2032-I ) never really seemed to do the job. They have a very limited FOV, and seem basically useless at night. I also have an issue now with 2 of them where they dont automatically switch between day/night mode. So i just keep them on nightmode the whole time (so they are permanently black and white). I have not been able to figure out how to correct this. I also lose remote access connectivity every few months which requires me to go in and figure out why DNS/no-ip isnt working and try to re do it.

 

[Mike A.]

which may be why my Hikvision cameras (btw - this the model# for them: DS-2CD2032-I ) never really seemed to do the job. They have a very limited FOV, and seem basically useless at night.

Naaa... that's not you or BI. I had some of those same cams. They just kind of suck. Yes, very poor at night. Don't recall any problem with them switching but did have the IR filter fail on a couple so it might seem that way.

 

[steve1225]

You will find that all NVRs are not created equal and the cost to get an NVR to handle 7 or 8 cameras will cost more than a computer LOL.

latest Dahua NVR-5xxx-EI can decode (to live view) 16 cameras at 4mp. Cost about 300-400 usd/euro (without POE). If you need to decode more it can use sub streams…

 

[wittaj]

latest Dahua NVR-5xxx-EI can decode (to live view) 16 cameras at 4mp. Cost about 300-400 usd/euro (without POE). If you need to decode more it can use sub streams…

Exactly...you proved my point.... I can get a more than capable i5-8500 computer for less than $200USD and be far better and cheaper than the NVR...

 

[atom631]

I just ordered one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07S47VXGY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

to try out. Im not sure I need varifocal yet, still need to read more. Im more concerned with whats happening no further than 20-30' from the camera on my property (and i only have 1/2 acre) and I think a wider FOV would be more beneficial to me.

Ill read throug the wiki to try an optimize my current server. if my CPU is really struggling, Ill pick up one of those used desktops and move BI and my 2TB WDD drive over.

can someone give me a brief lesson on sub-streams? I thought I understood what it was (ability to view the stream at a lower res w/o actually doing any recoridng) but now Im not so sure. How would I enable something like the Ring Alarm system to read the substream and not the main stream? Do I need to create a 2nd user account on the camera and only give that account access to the sub stream?

 

[steve1225]

Exactly...you proved my point.... I can get a more than capable i5-8500 computer for less than $200USD and be far better and cheaper than the NVR...

you are comparing used computers from second hand to a new NVR.
Plus using windows OS and windows app with all quirks and stability problems vs standalone networked device (based on Linux) designed to run 24/7.
Comparing very advanced cctv app with thousands options hidden at different dialog / menu systems and lots tinkering to proper setup vs easy to use and start solution created to work in Dahua ecosystem.
Computer which will eat 100-200 wats of power vs NVR which use 30-40 watt .