Bcs001
n3wb
Bear with me here…..I’m still getting up to speed. So how are camera connections made with iDMSS? When using iDMSS, can the NVR or PC running BI still be reached remotely over the internet?
NVR or DVR with slow Internet
- Thread starter Bcs001
- Start date
iDMSS is the app that you will use to see the NVR (and thus the video streams), not the cameras.
But you can use iDMSS to see the cameras if you don't have an NVR (like the person that buys one camera and puts an SD card in it doesn't need an NVR).
But to add your device to iDMSS, you simply open it and type in the IP address of the device and put in username and password and the device is then on iDMSS.
However, once you add a VMS to your solution, whether it be an NVR or Blue Iris, then you are accessing the VMS platform via the associated app or platform for that device.
If you have Blue Iris, then you will use the Blue Iris app ($10) or the free UI3 platform that is native to Blue Iris. You will not use iDMSS at that point.
We isolate our NVRs or Blue Iris from the internet because we do not want our video feeds going to the Cloud servers via P2P. It is insecure and ripe for being hacked. So we view the system remotely by VPNing into our system.
This isn't the paid VPN that HIDES your IP Address. This is a VPN where you are the server and you VPN back into your home IP address range. This VPN is FREE. If you are paying for it, then it is hiding your IP address for porno and illegal streaming LOL.
Many routers such as ASUS have OpenVPN built into them.
But you can use iDMSS to see the cameras if you don't have an NVR (like the person that buys one camera and puts an SD card in it doesn't need an NVR).
But to add your device to iDMSS, you simply open it and type in the IP address of the device and put in username and password and the device is then on iDMSS.
However, once you add a VMS to your solution, whether it be an NVR or Blue Iris, then you are accessing the VMS platform via the associated app or platform for that device.
If you have Blue Iris, then you will use the Blue Iris app ($10) or the free UI3 platform that is native to Blue Iris. You will not use iDMSS at that point.
We isolate our NVRs or Blue Iris from the internet because we do not want our video feeds going to the Cloud servers via P2P. It is insecure and ripe for being hacked. So we view the system remotely by VPNing into our system.
This isn't the paid VPN that HIDES your IP Address. This is a VPN where you are the server and you VPN back into your home IP address range. This VPN is FREE. If you are paying for it, then it is hiding your IP address for porno and illegal streaming LOL.
Many routers such as ASUS have OpenVPN built into them.
Bcs001
n3wb
The more I start to understand these systems the more questions I have. Thanks for the education.
So the stuff I’m reading on the Dahua site about using port forwarding for remote access with iDMSS is not secure and you guys recommend VPN? My concern with VPN is the additional load on my already slow internet and getting any video to stream while I’m away from home. Not sure there is much I can do about that though.
Back to the setup, if I go with iDMSS and a Dahua NVR, Will all the cameras connect to the NVR initially (p2p?) and then iDMSS will connect to the NVR (not p2p) to give me full access to all cameras?
OpenVPN is very bare bones.
Before I knew any better and before I found this site, my NVR was doing the P2P and port forwarding nonsense and it was slow as can be viewing remotely. It actually got faster when I turned that crap off and went to VPN. Your camera feed not having to go to China and back is a time saver and makes up for the little bit of bandwidth hosting your own VPN.
You love to overthink things LOL.
You plug your NVR into the power and turn it on and set user/password.
Then you plug each camera in one at a time. You do not plug the next one in until the previous one is showing up. P2P is not used at all. If you power up all the cams at the same time, you will have nothing but IP conflicts and no video and will need to factory reset and start over.
See this:
ipcamtalk.com
Before I knew any better and before I found this site, my NVR was doing the P2P and port forwarding nonsense and it was slow as can be viewing remotely. It actually got faster when I turned that crap off and went to VPN. Your camera feed not having to go to China and back is a time saver and makes up for the little bit of bandwidth hosting your own VPN.
You love to overthink things LOL.
You plug your NVR into the power and turn it on and set user/password.
Then you plug each camera in one at a time. You do not plug the next one in until the previous one is showing up. P2P is not used at all. If you power up all the cams at the same time, you will have nothing but IP conflicts and no video and will need to factory reset and start over.
See this:
***PSA for those with a New DAHUA NVR with Built-in PoE switch
IF you have a Dahua NVR with built-in PoE switch... DO NOT follow instructions telling you to use the config tool or switch the IP of your cameras or initialize anything..! With NVR's typically with a -P designation (Built-n PoE switch - example: 4208-8P-4KS2) none of that is required and it...
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Bcs001
n3wb
Thanks. I’ll take the guidance here and do a little more reading. I’m definitely a rookie when it come network setup but with some help I can usually get things working.
Bcs001
n3wb
I've decided to go the Blue Iris/PC route with POE cameras. I have an old desktop PC that pretty much meets the hardware requirements described in the Wiki page. I can easilly add the 2nd NIC and additional HDD space and RAM if needed then if it doesn't perform just find a refurb.
I want camera feeds and alerts to go to my IOS devices while local. The discussion about using IDMSS sounded appealing and if I go that route do I need to use only Dahua cameras or is this not an issue because the APP communicates with the BI PC only? Also are there other apps to consider?
I'll walk the property today and start layout out the camera requirements. I know I'll need optical zoom and low light performance in a couple of places where there is almost no ambient light. What is the camera price point I should look at?
Thanks,
Bruce.
I want camera feeds and alerts to go to my IOS devices while local. The discussion about using IDMSS sounded appealing and if I go that route do I need to use only Dahua cameras or is this not an issue because the APP communicates with the BI PC only? Also are there other apps to consider?
I'll walk the property today and start layout out the camera requirements. I know I'll need optical zoom and low light performance in a couple of places where there is almost no ambient light. What is the camera price point I should look at?
Thanks,
Bruce.
As I mentioned in Post #22, if you go the BI route then you will not want to use IDMSS. I assure you the paid BI app or the free UI3 will be much more user friendly and more capable than IDMSS.
IDMSS does not talk to Blue Iris it only talks to Dahua cameras and Dahua NVR (well anything Dahua OEM). But it's functionality is really limited, especially without an NVR.
For cameras, you will be in the $150 to $250 range for fixed lens cameras. More if you add a PTZ to the mix.
You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera.
Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.
One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.
So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.
If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.
IDMSS does not talk to Blue Iris it only talks to Dahua cameras and Dahua NVR (well anything Dahua OEM). But it's functionality is really limited, especially without an NVR.
For cameras, you will be in the $150 to $250 range for fixed lens cameras. More if you add a PTZ to the mix.
You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera.
Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.
- 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm or the 4K/X - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
- 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
- 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
- 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
- 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
- 49225 PTZ - great auto-track PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.
One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.
So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.
If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.
sebastiantombs
Known around here
Let me jump in on this and try to illustrate what the differences are between LAN and internet.
Think of your LAN, Local Area Network, as a room. Anything in that room, on your LAN, can see and talk to each other with no problems. That includes Windows, browse drives on other computers, print documents to your network printer, access the video streams from an NVR, access the video feed from Blue Iris acting as a VMS (Video Management System). All of this goes on without the internet being involved in any way. In fact you can unplug the internet connection of your router and everything will still work normally on your local network, LAN, other than no surfing or streaming.
You will want internet access for your video stream, though. The internet is outside of that room that is you local network or LAN. That can be accomplished using P2P (Peer 2 Peer) or a VPN (Virtual Private Network). P2P is inherently more dangerous due to security problems like being potentially unencrypted and potentially easier to hack. Your devices are more open to hacking for denial of service attacks or, worse yet, stealing data from your computers or even installing ransomware on them with P2P. A VPN isn't too hard to get running and will provide a pretty decent level of security. No system is perfect, but a VPN is far closer than P2P. The speed of your internet connection is more than fast enough to handle a composite video stream of multiple cameras because the composite streams are at lower resolutions and bit rates to make it easier on limited bandwidth connections. I just checked and using the built-in interface for Blue Iris, UI3, I cam viewing 21 cameras using a bandwidth of abut 3Mb/ps.
Think of your LAN, Local Area Network, as a room. Anything in that room, on your LAN, can see and talk to each other with no problems. That includes Windows, browse drives on other computers, print documents to your network printer, access the video streams from an NVR, access the video feed from Blue Iris acting as a VMS (Video Management System). All of this goes on without the internet being involved in any way. In fact you can unplug the internet connection of your router and everything will still work normally on your local network, LAN, other than no surfing or streaming.
You will want internet access for your video stream, though. The internet is outside of that room that is you local network or LAN. That can be accomplished using P2P (Peer 2 Peer) or a VPN (Virtual Private Network). P2P is inherently more dangerous due to security problems like being potentially unencrypted and potentially easier to hack. Your devices are more open to hacking for denial of service attacks or, worse yet, stealing data from your computers or even installing ransomware on them with P2P. A VPN isn't too hard to get running and will provide a pretty decent level of security. No system is perfect, but a VPN is far closer than P2P. The speed of your internet connection is more than fast enough to handle a composite video stream of multiple cameras because the composite streams are at lower resolutions and bit rates to make it easier on limited bandwidth connections. I just checked and using the built-in interface for Blue Iris, UI3, I cam viewing 21 cameras using a bandwidth of abut 3Mb/ps.
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Bcs001
n3wb
Much appreciated. Thats great info to go along with the info in the wiki pages. Looks like my budget on cameras is going up substantially but that's ok,
I like the idea of my router hosting the VPN. I'm running an older Trednet TEW-818DRU with WIFI disabled since my WIFI is a couple of Ubiquiti APs that I plan to expand outdoors as run Cat6 to my camera locations. You say my internet speeds should be adequate but with Hughesnet satellite service the uploads speeds are very erratic and I believe the high latency affects affects downloads. Webpages load extremely slow and I cannot video stream Netflix without the stream freezing. I am able to use my employers VPN to work from home but again very slow and with long delays.
Since this is my only option I will just have to live with the delays. Can you suggest a router that you think would be a good choice? It doesnt need WIFI since I will disable it anyway. My plan would be to run one of the free VPN services recommended here to access the BI PC for alerts and to remote view video feeds.
Bruce.
Asus routers are the go to routers here as most of them have OpenVPN built right in.
If you set up the substreams and run UI3 on lower resolution, the bandwidth needed will go down to stream it as well. I have mine down to under 500Kbps and it works well for viewing the cams on a mobile device. Obviously if I solo a camera and mainstream it, it is a different story, but to have a look around if I get an alert and see what is going on it works fine.
I could never get DMSS to go that low. Like I said, the bandwidth to P2P and send it to China and back, coupled with the limited functionality of DMSS, meant I never/rarely looked at the feeds while away. BI just has that much more flexibility and functionality.
If you set up the substreams and run UI3 on lower resolution, the bandwidth needed will go down to stream it as well. I have mine down to under 500Kbps and it works well for viewing the cams on a mobile device. Obviously if I solo a camera and mainstream it, it is a different story, but to have a look around if I get an alert and see what is going on it works fine.
I could never get DMSS to go that low. Like I said, the bandwidth to P2P and send it to China and back, coupled with the limited functionality of DMSS, meant I never/rarely looked at the feeds while away. BI just has that much more flexibility and functionality.
sebastiantombs
Known around here
^^^ Asus routers, RT68 series and up, are the way to go. I'm thinking of replacing my RT68U, which is probably almost 10 years old, with something newer like the AX300 or the AX5700.
When I mentioned the bandwidth on UI3 I left out the fact that I'm running it at 2160p with a variable bit rate on my LAN. If I drop the resolution to 720p the bit rate drops to under 1Mb/ps and it can be dropped even further. At 360p its about 250 Kb/ps and still has reasonable video. Lower than that and the video gets pretty blocky and blurry but the bit rate can go as low as 25Kb/ps.
When I mentioned the bandwidth on UI3 I left out the fact that I'm running it at 2160p with a variable bit rate on my LAN. If I drop the resolution to 720p the bit rate drops to under 1Mb/ps and it can be dropped even further. At 360p its about 250 Kb/ps and still has reasonable video. Lower than that and the video gets pretty blocky and blurry but the bit rate can go as low as 25Kb/ps.
Bcs001
n3wb
I've started to consider camera location and how to get Cat 6 to each location, I know each camera needs a connection back to the BI PC thru a POE switch as shown here....
but can I add a second poe switch feeding back the first one for about 3-4 cameras? I have one spare Cat 6 line running to my garage and if I can add a second switch there, then the wiring is much easier for the cameras I want in that area.
Thanks,
Bruce.
but can I add a second poe switch feeding back the first one for about 3-4 cameras? I have one spare Cat 6 line running to my garage and if I can add a second switch there, then the wiring is much easier for the cameras I want in that area.
Thanks,
Bruce.
I have a total of 4 POE switches for my cams. Three of those feed into the fourth which then has a single line to the BI PC.
Bcs001
n3wb
I'm moving onto the next steps on choosing cameras. I think I'll take the recommendations here to buy 2 or 3 different ones that I know I'll need and test them in various locations before picking the rest. There is a lot of discussion about 4mp on 1/1.8" sensors and 2mp on 1/2.8" sensors. I'm not sure about choosing one over the other so maybe I can get a little guidance? I will have some locations where I'll have little to no ambient lighting and I'll need variable
optical zoom functionality:
Other locations with good lighting at night:
and some close up locations:
I'm thinking 2mp cameras for the poor lighting areas and 4mp where the lighting is ok?
optical zoom functionality:
Other locations with good lighting at night:
and some close up locations:
I'm thinking 2mp cameras for the poor lighting areas and 4mp where the lighting is ok?
tigerwillow1
Known around here
I think it's "settled science" that the 4mp 5442 series "beats the pants off" of the 2 mp cameras for low light sensitivity. In low light the 4K-X camera is even better, but not an option if you need IR illumination.
sebastiantombs
Known around here
I'd suggest that for the final installation, and maybe even while your testing, that you consider using external, or auxiliary, IR illumination. They're not particularly expensive and are very valuable where there is no light or very little light. Looking at your photos, and I'm jealous of the location(!), I think you'll be using them for longer views. I use them, extensively, and they can really improve night video significantly. I have a large one in the back yard where there is very little light and it lights up the whole yard, say 220x250, quite well. Links below. You may also want to consider remote mounting, as on trees, cameras and/or IR illuminators to give better coverage for that driveway.
In terms of night vision the 4MP, 1/1.8" sensor, is roughly the same as the 2MP, 1/2.8" sensor. The 4MP "wins" because of the higher resolution, but that does not disqualify the 2MP cameras at all. In terms of evolution the 4MP is the way to go. For testing purposes, I'd suggest the IPC5442T-ZE because it is an excellent, all around, workhorse camera.
A couple of night comparison shots, camera models are embedded in the shots -
Ooops, the first one is a IPC-T2231T-ZS, 2MP camera.
I included the 5442-T-AS-6mm to show the difference between a varifocal and a fixed lens in the 5442 line.
I use the first one in the back yard and the smaller ones on the corners of the house.
External IR
Blaster
Smaller IR
In terms of night vision the 4MP, 1/1.8" sensor, is roughly the same as the 2MP, 1/2.8" sensor. The 4MP "wins" because of the higher resolution, but that does not disqualify the 2MP cameras at all. In terms of evolution the 4MP is the way to go. For testing purposes, I'd suggest the IPC5442T-ZE because it is an excellent, all around, workhorse camera.
A couple of night comparison shots, camera models are embedded in the shots -
Ooops, the first one is a IPC-T2231T-ZS, 2MP camera.
I included the 5442-T-AS-6mm to show the difference between a varifocal and a fixed lens in the 5442 line.
I use the first one in the back yard and the smaller ones on the corners of the house.
External IR
Blaster
Smaller IR
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iwanttosee
Pulling my weight
What speed do you actually have?
My internet is advertised as 40mbps download and 3mbps upload speed but I actually get 55mbps download and 5.6mbps upload.
5.6mbps is plenty for me to have use OpenVPN on my phone to view my BlueIris server at home.
Satellite connection usually have high latency, so I don't know how that's going to affect you.
Bcs001
n3wb
I get pretty consistent downloads of ~35mb/s but uploads suck, anywhere between 0.5 and 3 mb/s depending on time of day. With the latency almost all webpages load with very long delays. I am running 3 Arlo Pro cameras right now and its can take anywhere from 10 seconds to never for video to load. I recognize that with Arlo it has to first be uploaded and then downloaded, thus the reason I'm setting up this system for local access.
However, the 5442 series only goes to 32mm optical zoom, so if someone needs more optical zoom, then they have to go to the 2MP Z12E fixed cam or go with a PTZ.
@Bcs001 - as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, you need to get the camera for the distance you are trying to cover and then get the best MP/sensor ratio for that distance. In some instances it will be a 2MP.
For example, in this photo, if you want to identify someone or a vehicle coming around that bend at that location, the 5442 fixed cam won't cut it and just guessing on distance, the Z4E won't either. You will need to PTZ it or go with a 2MP Z12E
