Installer came out for quote - said I need switch w/ 15w per port

[jayleoness]

So I have 4 Poe cameras that I need to have run through the house. I started out a little iffy on this guy when he asked what nvr I was going to use and I said blue iris and he didn’t know what that was, then when I told him it’s a software on my computer he said he doesn’t recommend that because you lose a lot of camera features when you don’t use the nvr that goes with them.


But that doesn’t meant there isn’t truth to this. But my main question is for my 4 cameras I ordered a Zyxel Poe switch 8 ports at 60w. Which is 7.5w per port. He tells me I should get a switch that has 15w per port. I forgot exactly his reasoning for this but it was something like the it cameras will draw more energy and risk frying something. Not sure exactly he kinda lost me. But is that recommended to have a switch at 15w per port


This guy fwiw is the owner of a security company that has been around for 30+ years and does the camera setups on a few hospitals and major businesses around here as well as a lot of residential work.

 

[SouthernYankee]

please provide ZYXEL POE part number

I am assuming that it is a ZtXEL GS1008HP. This is a 802.3at 802.3af with 60 watts total. This will handle up to 30 watts per port or a total of 60 watts for 8 ports. For 4 cameras it is 15 watts per camera average. If the cameras need 15 watts, which i doubt if the cameras are not PTZ.

For 4 cameras I would not worry, I would not use it for 8 cameras.

I recommend a netgear gs108LP. The power output is dependent upon the power supply used with the switch.

 

[fenderman]

So I have 4 Poe cameras that I need to have run through the house. I started out a little iffy on this guy when he asked what nvr I was going to use and I said blue iris and he didn’t know what that was, then when I told him it’s a software on my computer he said he doesn’t recommend that because you lose a lot of camera features when you don’t use the nvr that goes with them.


But that doesn’t meant there isn’t truth to this. But my main question is for my 4 cameras I ordered a Zyxel Poe switch 8 ports at 60w. Which is 7.5w per port. He tells me I should get a switch that has 15w per port. I forgot exactly his reasoning for this but it was something like the it cameras will draw more energy and risk frying something. Not sure exactly he kinda lost me. But is that recommended to have a switch at 15w per port


This guy fwiw is the owner of a security company that has been around for 30+ years and does the camera setups on a few hospitals and major businesses around here as well as a lot of residential work.

They guy is inept. Most fixed ip cameras draw 2-5w. Nothing will EVER fry because there is insufficient power.

 

[J Sigmo]

Cameras with built-in infra-red illuminators will draw more power at night when their IR switches on.

Also, motorized cameras, like PTZs (pan, tilt, zooms) can draw quite a bit of power when their motors are operating.

You should be able to look at the specifications for your cameras and find what their maximum power consumption is. Get a POE switch that can supply the power needed for each individual channel as well as the total power for all cameras combined.

You may not think you'll want to add any cameras, but you most likely will. And you may think you don't want a PTZ camera, or want to add separate IR illuminators, etc. But you may.

Based on my experience, I'd get a beefier POE switch. Or get several of these smaller ones. It is always better to have more power capacity than you will use because you don't really want to run a power supply at its full rated power, anyhow. It is likely to be more reliable if you run it well below what it's rated for.

Edit to add:

Don't you just love it when we come on here and give conflicting advice!

 

[bp2008]

While it is true that Blue Iris won't integrate as well with an IP cam as an NVR from the same brand would, that doesn't really matter in most cases. You'd just be setting up Blue Iris's motion detection and not caring about what the camera has built in.

As for power consumption, that switch is sufficient for typical loads from fixed cameras (not PTZ). The risk is if you connect more power-hungry things that add up to more than 60 watts, you might overheat and damage the switch or its power supply, or worse it could start a fire (this is always a possibility with electronics). That is assuming the switch isn't smart enough to shut off ports until it is below the limit. Good luck finding that feature on a spec sheet.

Here's a screenshot of my managed switch's output power for a whole bunch of fixed cameras (Hikvision and Dahua). It tells me there is 62.5 watts being used, and this spread across 18 devices. Granted, this is daytime. I don't have a screenshot of this at night.

 

[J Sigmo]

The fact that the guy hasn't heard of BI is something of a concern. I'd definitely go with BI before any NVR.

 

[bp2008]

The fact that the guy hasn't heard of BI is something of a concern.

Particularly because:

This guy fwiw is the owner of a security company that has been around for 30+ years and does the camera setups on a few hospitals and major businesses around here as well as a lot of residential work.

Long-established professionals often neglect to stay up-to-date in their field, whereas enthusiasts like you find in a forum like this are generally more aware of bleeding-edge technology like Blue Iris (it has only been around for about 20 years).

 

[J Sigmo]

I suspect that a lot of pro installers make money selling NVR systems, so there's that. And they don't want to be bothered tinkering with something like BI on a PC, where the user can really get things screwed up, and then want the installer to come out and straighten things out for them. This would not only be with regard to the security camera system, but also from the entire PC troubleshooting side of things. Big potential can of worms from an installer's point of view. Plus a lot of extra learning required of the installer guy.

I'd much rather have and use BI than any NVR. But as you say, I'll be willing to tinker with it on my own and come here for the advice I need when I screw things up or have questions.

I figure the NVRs are more of a "canned solution" that the installer can set up and then never deal with again. More "user proof" if you will.

If I was setting up a system for a friend or neighbor, I'd have to judge their ability, competence, and willingness to either work on it themselves or leave it alone before deciding whether or not to set them up with BI or an NVR.

 

[c hris527]

I have crossed paths with seasoned Installers who have never herd of BI and also some of the resellers who are making a living selling NVR's and cams. If I was a full time Installer and that's what I did for a living, the last thing I think I would want to do is study what I do all day in my spare time. Back to the OP's comments on the POE switch, I have made the mistake of undersizing what I thought was good at the time only to find out a year later I was adding a 16 port instead of a 8 port, The bigger it is, the less it has to work, the less heat and longer lifespan(In Theory). I would agree with what that Installer told him.

 

[bp2008]

If I was a full time Installer and that's what I did for a living, the last thing I think I would want to do is study what I do all day in my spare time

Yes, it does take a special breed I guess. Still, I have trouble respecting people who work in tech and won't stay up to date in their own field. I've been working with those types my entire professional career and they are a major drain on resources.

 

[TonyR]

Then there's the types that, rather than say they don't know, make up something just to hear themselves talk.
It's not a crime to not know all the answers, all the time.
I know what I know and like to think I now what I don't...and I have no problem admitting I don't but will offer to find out.

Reminds me of Clint Eastwoood's "Dirty Harry" on the SF dock as the corrupt police Lt. (Hal Holbrook) unknowingly drove off with the explosives on a timed detonator..."A man's got to know his limitations."

 

[jayleoness]

Thanks for all the responses. So my cameras power consumption says

IPC-T5442TM-AS
DC12V:2.1W 6.2W(LED on)
PoE:2.6W 7.2W(LED on)

In theory then on my 8 port 60w switch for 4 cameras I should be completely fine(7.5w per port). I do agree there is something to be said about over sizing for future unanticipated additions as well as less work for the switch, longer lifespan etc.

 

[fenderman]

Thanks for all the responses. So my cameras power consumption says

IPC-T5442TM-AS
DC12V:2.1W 6.2W(LED on)
PoE:2.6W 7.2W(LED on)

In theory then on my 8 port 60w switch for 4 cameras I should be completely fine(7.5w per port). I do agree there is something to be said about over sizing for future unanticipated additions as well as less work for the switch, longer lifespan etc.

Over sizing will not make it last longer, it will just cost you more for no reason. The guy is simply clueless.

 

[bp2008]

Here's a new set of wattages at night with IR on all but two cams (which I have in color mode). 91 watts total. Note how most are still under 5 watts.

 

[J Sigmo]

It sounds like the switch you have will run your four cameras quite comfortably. You'll be at half or less of its rated power.

But as someone who designed various electronics, including power supplies for a living, I must point out that heat is the enemy of electronic components, both semiconductors and passives such as electrolytic caps.

If you look at the manufacturers' MTBF ratings for electrolytics, for example, you will see that the lifetime curves are heavily dependent on temperature and ripple current.

Higher loading of switching power supplies raises temperatures and increases ripple currents. Thus, the MTBF for a switching PSU will be highly dependent on how heavily loaded the supply is.

Running any PSU, especially a switcher, at full power will shorten its life. Some manufacturers rate their supplies conservatively, while others may not.

Based on my experience, if I want longer life from any power supply, I will always run it conservatively, and also do whatever I can to keep it as cool as is practical.

Also, high quality caps are a must for switching power supplies. High ripple current ratings, low ESR at the switching frequency, and high temperature ratings are all important. Often, the rated lifetimes for electrolytic caps are disappointingly low.

In Selecting an Input Capacitor, Focus on the Ripple Current, ESR, and ESL | TECH INFO | ROHM TECH WEB: Technical Information Site of Power Supply Design

Jump down to the area where he discusses ripple current ratings and self heating in the electrolytic caps of the input circuit.

Anyhow, I'm not saying this guy was well-versed in his field. And it sounds like the switch you've got is well up to the task with your four cameras.

But my other experience is that I've had to buy several new POE switches because I ended up adding more and more cameras. If I had it to do again, I'd get a big one to start with.

 

[bp2008]

But my other experience is that I've had to buy several new POE switches because I ended up adding more and more cameras. If I had it to do again, I'd get a big one to start with.

Me tool. LOL. I had worked my way up to 4 of these 4-PoE TP-Link models in a stack in my garage.

Then I decided that was enough and I upgraded to a 24 port PoE switch with gigabit uplinks.

 

[J Sigmo]

I have ended up with an interesting variety of POE switches. I wish I'd gotten one like yours to start. But I have been able to use some of the smaller ones I ended up with to split out connections in several rooms. This worked out well, saving me from needing to pull long separate "home runs" from each camera that is instead served by these "nodes", if you will.

And I like having one small POE switch available just to power cameras temporarily, along with a USB Ethernet port, when I need to first set up and assign a permanent IP address to a new camera.

So it hasn't been entirely bad that I've ended up with all of these smaller POE switches.

None of the subnets I actually use happen to be the usual ones that cameras default to, so it's nice to have an otherwise unused ethernet port and POE gadget to power up and commission new cameras.

It is sort of surprising that none of the camera makers write their firmware to make use of BootP (bootstrap protocol) as their default startup mode. The PLC system I favor the most uses that for their I/O processors and controllers, and it makes it so easy and convenient to commission new units. It doesn't matter what subnet you connect to, the gadget you're setting up is visible and you can assign it an appropriate IP address, on your subnet or not. And you put the gadget into this BootP mode simply by performing a factory reset.

 

[alastairstevenson]

It is sort of surprising that none of the camera makers write their firmware to make use of BootP (bootstrap protocol) as their default startup mode.

I get where you're coming from - but that would defeat even the higher than average home user, who sometimes struggles even with a default IP address.
Fine with a commercial environment, and maybe a home environment with high-level tech support!

BootP can actually still be done on some of these embedded system devices, where the u-boot still has much of the original designed functionality, ie not Hikvision's locked-down versions.
I've used it to fire up different u-Image versions to save risking a brick by flashing it.
And booting the Pi over the LAN as well.