I need to return my defender sentinel, need advice

kanyons

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My mom just purchased a defender sentinel from Costco for 350 bucks. I installed the whole thing using POE. But the systems total crap. She gets false notifications all night long and half the cameras don't pick up motion from time to time.

I'm looking for advice for a new system. From the research I've done on this forum it looks like I want to go with Hikvision, Dahua or some non OEM of these.

I'm looking for a system that 16 channels, eight cameras, AI, 2A audio and something with some really good sensors to not pick up false detections.

Any suggestions? I saw someone talking about empire tech. Is that a good place to purchase some cameras and NVR?

I think my budget is $1,000 to $4,000
 

looney2ns

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Yes, Empiretech is a great solution for cameras. He sells OEM Dahua cams.
A great all around camera at this time is this: EmpireTech IPC-T54IR-ZE-S3 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP IR Starlight Vari-focal Tur

But, you need to choose the camera that fits the job.

NVR: EmpireTech NVR16CH-16P-2AI 16 Channels 1U 16PoE 2HDD Network Video Rec

Or use this and a used PC to create your own NVR: Blue Iris - Video Security Software

You need to decide exactly what you need to accomplish with the cameras.

Some of the camera models are outdated in this, but the other info is relevant: Cliff Notes.
 

mat200

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My mom just purchased a defender sentinel from Costco for 350 bucks. I installed the whole thing using POE. But the systems total crap. She gets false notifications all night long and half the cameras don't pick up motion from time to time.

I'm looking for advice for a new system. From the research I've done on this forum it looks like I want to go with Hikvision, Dahua or some non OEM of these.

I'm looking for a system that 16 channels, eight cameras, AI, 2A audio and something with some really good sensors to not pick up false detections.

Any suggestions? I saw someone talking about empire tech. Is that a good place to purchase some cameras and NVR?

I think my budget is $1,000 to $4,000
FYI - adding more info on the system originally picked up, not seeing a lot on specs


From the Costco Page on Defender Sentinel

Defender Sentinel 4K Ultra HD POE Wired 1TB NVR Security System With 8 Metal Cameras, Smart Human Detection, Color Night Vision & Mobile App

1704838862183.png
1704838970487.png
 

kanyons

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I ended up going with Amcrest. I got this NVR and a few different cameras. I got this before I saw any replies. Did I go over board of make any stupid mistakes? Any suggestions on best ways to set them up on my computer, TV and phone,

Amcrest 4K 32-Channel AI NVR (16-Port PoE) Smart NVR, Facial Recognition, Facial Detection & Vehicle Detection - Supports 32 x 4K IP Cameras, Supports up to 2 x 16TB HDD (Not Included) NV4232E-16P-
and this Western digital hard drive
Western Digital 10TB WD Purple Pro Surveillance Internal Hard Drive HDD - SATA 6 Gb/s, 256 MB Cache, 3.5" - WD101PURP


two of these:
Amcrest Dual-Lens 4K (2 x 2K) AI Outdoor Security Turret IP POE Camera, 8MP (2 x 4MP) @25fps, 0.0002lux@F1.0, 164ft Color Night Vision, Vehicle/Human Detection, Mic, Siren, IP4M-T1044EW-AI
four of these:
Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) IP POE AI Camera, 4K @30fps, 98ft Night Color Vision F1.0, Security Outdoor Turret Camera, Vehicle & Human Detection, Active Deterrents, Built in Microphone, IP8M-DT3949EW-3AI

two of these:

Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) Outdoor Security IP Turret PoE Camera, 3840x2160, 98ft NightVision, 2.8mm Lens, IP67 Weatherproof, MicroSD Recording (256GB), White
 

kanyons

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Yes, Empiretech is a great solution for cameras. He sells OEM Dahua cams.
A great all around camera at this time is this: EmpireTech IPC-T54IR-ZE-S3 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP IR Starlight Vari-focal Tur

But, you need to choose the camera that fits the job.

NVR: EmpireTech NVR16CH-16P-2AI 16 Channels 1U 16PoE 2HDD Network Video Rec

Or use this and a used PC to create your own NVR: Blue Iris - Video Security Software

You need to decide exactly what you need to accomplish with the cameras.

Some of the camera models are outdated in this, but the other info is relevant: Cliff Notes.
Thank you very much for all this info. There is a lot here and some very good stuff.
 

wittaj

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Wow so someone posting a reply 9 minutes after your initial post was too long of a wait and you went and bought a different system that probably still won't do what she wants...Did you type this post while walking into Costco and was too anxious and bought something else from Amazon while in Costco LOL.

You bought Amcrest, which is made by Dahua, but usually with lower quality sensors and materials to keep cost down as you are now paying for an Amcrest logo with a 1-800 number that most people find are useless.

The NVR you bought is 32 channel but is capped at 200Mbps (80Mbps when AI function enabled), so NO WAY you would get close to 32 cameras on that NVR unless they are all lower resolution and lower bitrates. Heck if you ran the eight 4K cameras you bought at max spec the NVR won't handle it...

You bought all fixed lens cameras, so unless you are installing them all no higher than 8 feet tall, anything past 10-15 feet will not be able to IDENTIFY. If you put on 2nd floor, all you will see is tops of heads and hoodies.

The IP4M-T1044EW-AI only works well in backlit conditions and even then the image will be a little fuzzy. Plus if she doesn't have enough visible light or refuses to run the built-in white LED lights, the camera will be blind as it doesn't see infrared.

The IP8M-DT3949EW-3AI will also suffer if not enough light because it cannot see infrared. Any camera labeled as Full Color still needs light!

And that camera is active deterrence with blue/red lights. The red/blue flashing lights are more gimmicky and are certainly not a deterrent. With any ambient light you won't see the red/blue flashing unless you are looking right at the camera. And it is on a sensor designed for 2MP, so it will struggle at night.

And then the UltraHD 4K is 8MP on a sensor designed for 2MP, so it will need 4 times the light of a 2MP to produce the same brightness of an image.

The other thing that you mom will probably despise of the two-way audio as those cameras are more gimmicky than reality. It is much more like a walkie-talkie push button and talk and release button type action and it can have a several second lag.

Certainly not the best to have a conversation - more like yelling "get the f off my lawn" LOL.

A doorbell camera is a much better choice to have a conversation like experience.

I figure no sense in telling you how to set them up with your phone, TV, computer because you will put these bad boys up and realize that they still don't meet what you want and will send them back.

You fell for the more megapixel is better trap. A 2MP system would perform much better unless you have stadium quality light.

You need to decide the ultimate goal for this system. You can't have it all.

Ease of use with an app?
OBSERVE or IDENTIFY quality?
Two-way talk?

If your mom isn't very tech capable, then you probably need to stick with a consumer grade system like an Arlo or Ring or Nest that has an easy to use app. The image quality at night will not be good and most motion will be a blur, but those companies invest on making the app experience easy. The two-way audio will also be slightly better using their apps.

See this thread that shows the importance of focal length and not chasing MP. This also includes the most commonly suggested cameras based on performance day and night.

 

TonyR

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+1^^.
I don't recall reading any posts in my 9-1/2 years on IPCT of anyone else seemingly in such a hurry.
That being said, best of luck with your purchase, install and level of satisfaction. :cool:
 
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kanyons

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Wow so someone posting a reply 9 minutes after your initial post was too long of a wait and you went and bought a different system that probably still won't do what she wants...Did you type this post while walking into Costco and was too anxious and bought something else from Amazon while in Costco LOL.

You bought Amcrest, which is made by Dahua, but usually with lower quality sensors and materials to keep cost down as you are now paying for an Amcrest logo with a 1-800 number that most people find are useless.

The NVR you bought is 32 channel but is capped at 200Mbps (80Mbps when AI function enabled), so NO WAY you would get close to 32 cameras on that NVR unless they are all lower resolution and lower bitrates. Heck if you ran the eight 4K cameras you bought at max spec the NVR won't handle it...

You bought all fixed lens cameras, so unless you are installing them all no higher than 8 feet tall, anything past 10-15 feet will not be able to IDENTIFY. If you put on 2nd floor, all you will see is tops of heads and hoodies.

The IP4M-T1044EW-AI only works well in backlit conditions and even then the image will be a little fuzzy. Plus if she doesn't have enough visible light or refuses to run the built-in white LED lights, the camera will be blind as it doesn't see infrared.

The IP8M-DT3949EW-3AI will also suffer if not enough light because it cannot see infrared. Any camera labeled as Full Color still needs light!

And that camera is active deterrence with blue/red lights. The red/blue flashing lights are more gimmicky and are certainly not a deterrent. With any ambient light you won't see the red/blue flashing unless you are looking right at the camera. And it is on a sensor designed for 2MP, so it will struggle at night.

And then the UltraHD 4K is 8MP on a sensor designed for 2MP, so it will need 4 times the light of a 2MP to produce the same brightness of an image.

The other thing that you mom will probably despise of the two-way audio as those cameras are more gimmicky than reality. It is much more like a walkie-talkie push button and talk and release button type action and it can have a several second lag.

Certainly not the best to have a conversation - more like yelling "get the f off my lawn" LOL.

A doorbell camera is a much better choice to have a conversation like experience.

I figure no sense in telling you how to set them up with your phone, TV, computer because you will put these bad boys up and realize that they still don't meet what you want and will send them back.

You fell for the more megapixel is better trap. A 2MP system would perform much better unless you have stadium quality light.

You need to decide the ultimate goal for this system. You can't have it all.

Ease of use with an app?
OBSERVE or IDENTIFY quality?
Two-way talk?

If your mom isn't very tech capable, then you probably need to stick with a consumer grade system like an Arlo or Ring or Nest that has an easy to use app. The image quality at night will not be good and most motion will be a blur, but those companies invest on making the app experience easy. The two-way audio will also be slightly better using their apps.

See this thread that shows the importance of focal length and not chasing MP. This also includes the most commonly suggested cameras based on performance day and night.

Wow so someone posting a reply 9 minutes after your initial post was too long of a wait and you went and bought a different system that probably still won't do what she wants...Did you type this post while walking into Costco and was too anxious and bought something else from Amazon while in Costco LOL.

You bought Amcrest, which is made by Dahua, but usually with lower quality sensors and materials to keep cost down as you are now paying for an Amcrest logo with a 1-800 number that most people find are useless.

The NVR you bought is 32 channel but is capped at 200Mbps (80Mbps when AI function enabled), so NO WAY you would get close to 32 cameras on that NVR unless they are all lower resolution and lower bitrates. Heck if you ran the eight 4K cameras you bought at max spec the NVR won't handle it...

You bought all fixed lens cameras, so unless you are installing them all no higher than 8 feet tall, anything past 10-15 feet will not be able to IDENTIFY. If you put on 2nd floor, all you will see is tops of heads and hoodies.

The IP4M-T1044EW-AI only works well in backlit conditions and even then the image will be a little fuzzy. Plus if she doesn't have enough visible light or refuses to run the built-in white LED lights, the camera will be blind as it doesn't see infrared.

The IP8M-DT3949EW-3AI will also suffer if not enough light because it cannot see infrared. Any camera labeled as Full Color still needs light!

And that camera is active deterrence with blue/red lights. The red/blue flashing lights are more gimmicky and are certainly not a deterrent. With any ambient light you won't see the red/blue flashing unless you are looking right at the camera. And it is on a sensor designed for 2MP, so it will struggle at night.

And then the UltraHD 4K is 8MP on a sensor designed for 2MP, so it will need 4 times the light of a 2MP to produce the same brightness of an image.

The other thing that you mom will probably despise of the two-way audio as those cameras are more gimmicky than reality. It is much more like a walkie-talkie push button and talk and release button type action and it can have a several second lag.

Certainly not the best to have a conversation - more like yelling "get the f off my lawn" LOL.

A doorbell camera is a much better choice to have a conversation like experience.

I figure no sense in telling you how to set them up with your phone, TV, computer because you will put these bad boys up and realize that they still don't meet what you want and will send them back.

You fell for the more megapixel is better trap. A 2MP system would perform much better unless you have stadium quality light.

You need to decide the ultimate goal for this system. You can't have it all.

Ease of use with an app?
OBSERVE or IDENTIFY quality?
Two-way talk?

If your mom isn't very tech capable, then you probably need to stick with a consumer grade system like an Arlo or Ring or Nest that has an easy to use app. The image quality at night will not be good and most motion will be a blur, but those companies invest on making the app experience easy. The two-way audio will also be slightly better using their apps.

See this thread that shows the importance of focal length and not chasing MP. This also includes the most commonly suggested cameras based on performance day and night.

I didn't realize somebody had replied so quickly. I was forced to make a decision 2 hours after my post. I knew that amcrest was a Dahua hardware and that's why I went with them. I didn't realize they put inferior sensors in them.

I wish I had more time to do some research but I can't spend 10 hours going down a rabbit hole. That being said, I thank you for your Long thought I'd reply and priceless information. The reason I bought three separate cameras was so I can test them out And I plan on returning the ones that don't work for here.

As far as empiretech goes, I reached out to them but didn't get a reply before I was forced to purchase something. If I do decide to go with the NVR I purchased am I able to add OEM Dahua cameras from empiretech in the future or do I have to stay with amcrest cameras.
 

mat200

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I ended up going with Amcrest. I got this NVR and a few different cameras. I got this before I saw any replies. Did I go over board of make any stupid mistakes? Any suggestions on best ways to set them up on my computer, TV and phone,

Amcrest 4K 32-Channel AI NVR (16-Port PoE) Smart NVR, Facial Recognition, Facial Detection & Vehicle Detection - Supports 32 x 4K IP Cameras, Supports up to 2 x 16TB HDD (Not Included) NV4232E-16P-
and this Western digital hard drive
Western Digital 10TB WD Purple Pro Surveillance Internal Hard Drive HDD - SATA 6 Gb/s, 256 MB Cache, 3.5" - WD101PURP


two of these:
Amcrest Dual-Lens 4K (2 x 2K) AI Outdoor Security Turret IP POE Camera, 8MP (2 x 4MP) @25fps, 0.0002lux@F1.0, 164ft Color Night Vision, Vehicle/Human Detection, Mic, Siren, IP4M-T1044EW-AI
four of these:
Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) IP POE AI Camera, 4K @30fps, 98ft Night Color Vision F1.0, Security Outdoor Turret Camera, Vehicle & Human Detection, Active Deterrents, Built in Microphone, IP8M-DT3949EW-3AI

two of these:

Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) Outdoor Security IP Turret PoE Camera, 3840x2160, 98ft NightVision, 2.8mm Lens, IP67 Weatherproof, MicroSD Recording (256GB), White
Hi @kanyons

Looks like you picked up a couple of the nicer Amcrest cameras ..

FYI - screen captures here for reference, as often things seem to change on Amazon's pages ..

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1704909103475.png

1704909045559.png
1704909133198.png
1704909182799.png
 

wittaj

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Keep in mind there is quite a bit setting up for these cameras to reach their full potential and if you are that under the gun in getting a system up and running, any of the pro-sumer type systems are probably not going to work out for you. Amcrest would fall more in that line of cameras than a true plug-n-play system and you will end spending a lot of time buying and returning cameras.

These type of cameras are not plug-n-play if you want to get the best out of them.

Don't be fooled by thinking it is a good camera because it produces a good static image.

Sure it will show a nice bright static image at night and you will think wow it looks like the sun is out, but then motion will be a blur.

The first thing you will need to do is set shutter speeds at 1/60s or 1/120s and gain at 50. Once you do the image gets a lot darker.

The faster the shutter speed, the more light that is needed.

Shutter speed is how you get the clean captures of people at night. If a camera is left on default/auto they will be ghosts and blur motion.

Now many people don't like that the image is darker because then you can't see as far out either.

So then they go back to auto/default settings.

At that point, you might as well go with a consumer grade true plug-n-play system like a Ring, Nest, Arlo, Blink, etc.

So I again ask, what is the primary purpose of the cameras - to allow your mom a quick and easy way to simply see what is going on around the property and who is at the front door, or is it for that PLUS the ability to IDENTIFY and go back to video and get clean captures of the perps?

We don't usually recommend the consumer grade cameras and systems, but sometimes they meet the goal of the system.
 

wittaj

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Here is a recent example someone posted with an example of a camera similar to the Amcrest 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor (common combination for a budget camera) versus 8MP on the proper sized sensor - which image looks better to you?



1696541548403.png






1696541571013.png




Of more importance is that the top picture is default settings, so a horribly slow shutter of maybe 1/12 so any motion would be a blur. The 2nd picture is a 1/100 shutter and will get a clean capture. The faster the shutter speed, the more light that is needed. That bottom picture at 1/100 shutter is impressive. If the top camera was set to a 1/100 shutter it would be a very dark image.


Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera. The camera you are looking at is designed for 2MP, so when they pop an 8MP lens on it, the processor is still the same and has to work harder. In some situations that is problematic.
 

wittaj

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And yes any cameras from Empiretech will work with the Amcrest NVR. Just keep in mind that the NVR is a budget NVR so as I mentioned, you could exceed that NVR capability with all 4K cameras.

And the cameras are not plug-n-play. Most of us spend hours dialing in the settings to get the clean capture of a perp at night under low light conditions.

Many people here with higher MP systems have to run more than 1 NVR because 1 NVR cannot handle them all despite being X channels.
 
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bigredfish

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The NVR isnt bad, but it wont run 32 cameras. As long as you use good cameras with AI enabled ON the CAMERA not using the NVR AI, you should be fine with say 12 or so 4MP cameras.
Access, storage or forwarding at 256 Mbps (180 Mbps when AI function enabled).

Good on the WD Purple's

The dual lens 4mP cameras with 1/1.8" sensors should be fine -
though as mentioned, they may need supplemental exterior light and they cant see IR

The 8MP turret on the 1/2.8" sensor and active deterrence with blue/red lights - not so much. return these

The 8MP turrets with IR and 1/2.7" sensors, - nah. Replace these with Dahua 5442 variable focus turrets
 

kanyons

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The NVR isnt bad, but it wont run 32 cameras. As long as you use good cameras with AI enabled ON the CAMERA not using the NVR AI, you should be fine with say 12 or so 4MP cameras.
Access, storage or forwarding at 256 Mbps (180 Mbps when AI function enabled).

Good on the WD Purple's

The dual lens 4mP cameras with 1/1.8" sensors should be fine -
though as mentioned, they may need supplemental exterior light and they cant see IR

The 8MP turret on the 1/2.8" sensor and active deterrence with blue/red lights - not so much. return these

The 8MP turrets with IR and 1/2.7" sensors, - nah. Replace these with Dahua 5442 variable focus turrets
One of the problems my mom is having with her current system The defender sentinel is it takes a long time to load the images on her phone. Is this due to it being a crappy NVR with 8 megapixel cameras? Because if that's the case I think I definitely want to go to different route, and get some four megapixel cameras that you recommended. Maybe a better NVR as well.

When it comes to AI on the camera and AI on the NVR, I thought that they both had to have the same capabilities for it to work That's why I went with what I did.
 

bigredfish

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Its complicated but generally speaking the NVR has to have the capability to understand and record the AI on the camera, (my 5 year old non-AI NVR can record and use 90% of what AI features that new/current cameras can put out) but some NVRs also have the capability to do limited AI on the NVR itself even if the camera doesnt have the capability.

My personal opinion is AI on the NVR just makes a mess of things assuming you already have AI capable cameras, and it reduces throughput dramatically.

The Dahua 5442 series 4MP are currently the gold standard. The newer 4K cams with 1/1.2" sensors are even better picking up light but at a cost. No IR, no variable focus, limited focus range
 
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bigredfish

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On the load time thing, lost of possible reasons. First the network itself, and is she trying to stream main 4K stream video? gonna be a lag due to the phone itself. Most apps stream the substream and allow you to view the main stream but you dont want to try and load 4 8MP main stream cams on a phone no.
 

wittaj

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+1 above - if you are trying to stream anything but lower res substreams, it can bring a system to it's knees.

I would assume her current system is using substreams as that is the only way for cheaper NVRs to be cost-competitive, so that would lean towards network issues you should try to solve first as better cameras and NVR won't fix that.

By images do you mean alert images or ability to pull up video - and is the lag while home on wifi or away from home or both?
 
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mat200

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One of the problems my mom is having with her current system The defender sentinel is it takes a long time to load the images on her phone. Is this due to it being a crappy NVR with 8 megapixel cameras? Because if that's the case I think I definitely want to go to different route, and get some four megapixel cameras that you recommended. Maybe a better NVR as well.

When it comes to AI on the camera and AI on the NVR, I thought that they both had to have the same capabilities for it to work That's why I went with what I did.
Check if your mom is using the local LAN to get the images .. or if she is using the cell phone network
 
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