Decent 4K PoE Cameras

[Royal2000H]

I've looked through the Wiki and I know that a lower MP camera is often recommended instead of 4K, especially for night performance. But for my use case, I think 4K/image quality does make sense.
Probably need 4-5 cameras, half indoor/half out into condo courtyard with some lighting (so not a big yard or street). Camera should have microphone..

A main contender I've looked at is the Reolink RLC-820A (linked), but it seems like there may be some controversy/dislike of Reolink cameras on here.
So I'm wondering, if not that, what other suggestions people have. Willing to spend more but not insanely more.

I've also looked at Costco Lorex cameras such as this and this.

I know Dahua/Hikvision are favorites but not sure which models and better than these?

 

[wittaj]

Lorex and Amcrest are both re-branded Dahua cams with features stripped out of them to appeal to the masses - i.e. plug and play.

Do a search on the forum for those kits as well as Reolink. They will never perform well at night and certainly not at 100 feet at night despite the "claim". Actually most cameras will not work at the rated "IR" distance except for maybe a nice still shot - add some motion and that distance drops exponentially. Here is the most recent person that purchased them and returned them after seeing them in action: Am I calculating this right? MP/s

Others have a standard message with links to cameras to consider, so I will let them respond to the camera question, but here is my standard response on box kits.

You will quickly be disappointed in those which I believe are 2.8mm cameras, especially at night.

Too many people get fascinated with 4K and the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" and such can provide and chase megapixels. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 Lorex cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4K Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results - fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4K...

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive kit system is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him.

Look at this chart below - the person would need to be within 13 feet to recognize them with a 2.8mm lens. As I tell my neighbors with their 2.8 mm cams on their house saying they can recognize people at the street, I am like that is only possible if you already know the person and be able to recognize them based on their walk, clothing, body type, etc., but put a total stranger in the frame and the picture will be fairly useless. I recognize most of the people I see on my 2.8mm overview cam, but a total stranger goes by and not much you could tell the police, maybe clothing color, but nothing to identify them.

You can detect someone at 75 feet and beyond and maybe be able to "recognize" them if you know them and can tell their body dimension, walk, etc., but will never be able to identify a stranger or have a good enough image to share with the police.

You would need probably around 32mm for identification at 75 feet. In cameras, a 2.8mm versus a 32mm results in a dramatic improvement over a distance.

And you will see because of that small lens size, that if you digital zoom, it is a pixel blurry mess real fast.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

A decent 4K, Check the IPC-HDW5831R-ZE
If has good budget for ultra smart models if bullet is good for using.
Check IPC-HFW7842H-Z

 

[Jessie.slimer]

Yes, look at sensor size and minimum lux specs if you plan on using it at night. A 4mp camera with a 1/1.8 sensor is much better than an 8mp (4k) camera with a 1/1.8 sensor. Reolink and other junk cameras rely on the average consumer not knowing any better. They assume more mp is better.

You will need a lot of light to get good usable video at night from a 4k camera with a small sensor.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Welcome to the land of video surveillance lunatics. There are a lot of people here with a lot of experience and expertise. They are well worth listening to and taking advice from.

Above all do not chase megapixels. You're not producing a Hollywierd Epoch, you're trying to identify someone who, perhaps, is doing some damage or stealing from you. 8MP at 30FPS sound really great, in reality it is basically useless at night unless you light the place up like it's a stadium for a night game.

My standard welcome - (repeats for emphasis)

Start out by looking in the WiKi in the blue bar at the top of the page. There's a ton of very useful information in there and it needs to be viewed on a computer, not a phone or tablet. The Cliff Notes will be of particular interest although the camera models listed there are a generation old at this point. The best way to determine what kind of camera you need in each location and where each location should really be is to buy one varifocal camera first and set up a test stand for it that can be easily moved around. Test using that, viewing using the web interface of the camera, during the day and at night. Have someone walk around behaving like a miscreant and see if you can identify them. There is also information for choosing hardware and securing the system along with a whole bunch of other good stuff.

Don't chase megapixels unless you have a really BIG budget. General rule of thumb is that a 4MP camera will easily outperform an 8MP camera when they both have the same sensor size. Reason being that there are twice as many pixels in the 8MP versus the 4MP. This results in only half the available light getting to each pixel in an 8MP that a pixel in the 4MP "sees".

A dedicated PC doesn't need to be either expensive to purchase or to run. A used business class machine can be had from eBay and various other sources. The advances made in Blue Iris make it easily possible to run a fairly large system on relatively inexpensive hardware which also makes power consumption low, as in under 50 watts in many cases. The biggest expenses turn out to be hard drives for storing video and a PoE switch to power the cameras and, of course, the cameras themselves.

Three rules
Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.

Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance. Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance. Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

Read the reviews here, most include both still shots and video.

Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

The 5442 series of cameras by Dahua is the current "king of the hill". They are 4MP and capable of color with some ambient light at night. The 2231 series is a less expensive alternative in 2MP and does not have audio capabilities, no built in microphone, but is easier on the budget. The 3241T-ZAS has similar spcs as the 2231 and has audio. There are also cameras available from the IPCT Store right here on the forum and from Nelly's Security who has a thread in the vendors section.

5442 Reviews

Review - Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret

Review-OEM Loryta IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal 4mp camera (Dahua)

IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal from @EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret Varifocal Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $200.00...

ipcamtalk.com

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

All, thanks to Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY ) we have a new 4MP AI camera for testing. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This camera is using the OEM model number of IPC-B5442-ZE which is the equivalent of the Dahua IPC-HFW5442-ZE for reference. The IPC-B...

ipcamtalk.com

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ Turret

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $160 Link to camera...

ipcamtalk.com

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Turret, Full Color, Starlight+)

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+)

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Andy's Email: kingsecurity2014...

ipcamtalk.com

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Bullet Network Camera

Review: OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Pro AI Starlight Full-color Fixed Bullet

Many thanks once again to Andy @EMPIRETECANDY we have for testing the OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Starlight+ Full Color bullet. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This is a fixed 3.6mm bullet (Pro AI) series with the 1/1.8” sensor. It has no built in...

ipcamtalk.com

2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal

Again courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY EmpireTech Andy we have a new cam to look over. Its a new model in Dahua's new Lite H265 Series of cam's. Available for purchase here: Aliexpress.com - Online Shopping for Electronics, Fashion, Home & Garden, Toys & Sports, Automobiles and more Price is approx...

ipcamtalk.com

3241T-ZAS Review

Review-OEM IPC-T3241-ZAS 2mp AI Lite series Varifocal

IPC-T3241-ZAS from EMPIRETECANDY 2MP WDR Turret Varifocal AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Purchase in the IPCT Store Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price...

ipcamtalk.com

Less expensive models -

Budget Dahua Cams or china alternatives under $100?

Well here we go. I dont see anywhere more approriate to discuss this. Ive been messing around with putting together a cctv system for close to 3 years now. Ive bought everything i needed and also bought 2 cheap cams from a third party seller on walmart. Those cams cost me a grand total of $50...

ipcamtalk.com

VPN Information Thread

VPN Primer for Noobs

The internet is a force of nature; no video surveillance system made was designed to be exposed to those forces.. NEVER FORWARD PORTS to your NVR or Cameras, doing such things not only exposes you to severe security problems, but everyone else on the internet too.. Hackers dont want your video...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[mat200]

I've looked through the Wiki and I know that a lower MP camera is often recommended instead of 4K, especially for night performance. But for my use case, I think 4K/image quality does make sense.
Probably need 4-5 cameras, half indoor/half out into condo courtyard with some lighting (so not a big yard or street). Camera should have microphone..

A main contender I've looked at is the Reolink RLC-820A (linked), but it seems like there may be some controversy/dislike of Reolink cameras on here.
So I'm wondering, if not that, what other suggestions people have. Willing to spend more but not insanely more.

I've also looked at Costco Lorex cameras such as this and this.

I know Dahua/Hikvision are favorites but not sure which models and better than these?

Welcome @Royal2000H

Those Lorex cameras sold at Costco have smaller sensors than what many of us like.

Do look for discussion in the threads on those cameras

Reolink is greatly disliked by members for numerous valid reasons, which also should be well documented in various threads.

 

[Parley]

Excellent points in the above posts. I am in the market for 4K cameras but the larger sensors are just not there yet except for my PTZ camera with the 4/3" sensor. At least with something in my price range.

 

[Royal2000H]

Thank you all for your responses. I really appreciate the time you each took to give a comprehensive response.

@wittaj What you've mentioned here regarding lens is a recurring thing I've seen here, thank you for mentioning it. I'm fortunate that I'm trying to cover relatively simple things. Cameras indoor don't need that much distance and my cameras outdoor are going into condo's courtyard so they too don't need all that much distance. I also don't need too crazy field of view for the same reason. But I take your point about the posts about Reolink's flaws. I must've been unjustly swayed by positive reviews.

@EMPIRETECANDY Thank you for that. Yes I think I'm more about turret/dome style than bullet style. I do, however, like the smart features. Will need to see which cameras to go with. The Dahua catalog is so big.

@Jessie.slimer @sebastiantombs You're both right though that the flashy marketing of 4K pictures has worked on me. The images look so nice especially compared to the old style surveillance images that are so off-putting. Especially for the indoor cameras, it's hard for me to fathom how a lesser MP camera comes out with a better picture. But you guys are the experts so I'll take your word. I did a search for the 5442 cameras on Dahua's website and got 32 cameras back. Will need to take the time to look at all of them and the linked reviews to see where to go with this. I'd say I will also need to compare to the 4K cameras (like the Dahua 4Ks @EMPIRETECANDY suggested) but it sounds like unanimously everyone says not to go with 4K.

Are the smart features listed on the cameras any useful (such as Face detection) or are they useless and everyone just relies on software solutions such as Blue Iris and AI connections to that?

 

[sebastiantombs]

I use both the camera AI and motion detection in BI. I've had mixed results with people/vehicle recognition but IVS, either tripwire or intrusion, works very well. I use schedules to switch between BI motion detection and IVS from the cameras or just create a clone camera in BI and use one for IVS and the other for BI motion.

It's not that 4K won't give a better picture during the day. They are handicapped at night though due to the sensor size. Remember too, you're not producing a Hollywierd Epoch here, you're trying to do surveillance.

 

[samplenhold]

But for my use case, I think 4K/image quality does make sense.

You really have not defined your 'use case'. I believe in fit-for-purpose camera selection. You have to define what your expectations are for your cam system. Are there locations that you just want a pretty picture of the view since it is so nice? Do you only want to track folks across the area but not know who they are, as in an overview cam? Or do you have specific spots, that after your security analysis, you can say are areas of concern to the point that you want to be able to describe a perp that enters that area with enough detail that the police could identify the perp and use the video evidence to make a conviction?

Each one of these 'use cases' are different and the requirements of a camera for each situation would be different. So the real question you need to ask yourself is 'what am I trying to achieve'? With that defined, the next step is to list specific requirements needed to achieve that goal. Once those requirements are set, you find the camera that best fulfills those requirements within your budget. That is called a security camera plan.

Say you were going to buy a motor vehicle. Well you need to choose which one of the thousands of vehicle out there. How would you decide? They all have seats, wheels, some kind of a motor, and will get you where you are going. But some will only seat two people. How many people do you need to seat? What is your preference for gas or electric? Do you need to haul a trailer? Etc. All of this relevant information is needed to define the requirements for that vehicle. You would not buy a Smart Car to tow a 9000# fifth wheel RV.

The same thing goes for cameras. You would not get a 4K 2.8mm on a 1/3" sensor if you want to get good enough video for the police to use in a conviction of a perp who smashes you car window at 3am. You would not get a cam that has no IR if you want night recording in low light. You would not get a cam for LPR at 120 feet with a maximum lens of 12mm.

 

[brianegge]

Are the smart features listed on the cameras any useful (such as Face detection) or are they useless and everyone just relies on software solutions such as Blue Iris and AI connections to that?

As far as the Lorex kits go, they are useless for triggering alerts. They are sometimes helpful when reviewing a timeline.

 

[Royal2000H]

Thank you for the replies, I'm so sorry for the long delay in response. I had some things that prevented me from getting back here.

@samplenhold To further expand on my use, at least at first, I expect to set up 3-4 cameras inside the home and 2-3 outdoor, all PoE. (Later I may need to add another outdoor location that I can't run ethernet to, but we can ignore for now). The outdoor are into the shared complex/courtyards that do have some ambient lighting at night and do not need too much distance. The indoor are into a condo, nothing too big. That's why I was under the impression I could "get away" with 4K and reap the rewards of nice picture without too much loss at night due to the limited need for crazy low-lighting or distance. But yes, ability to identify someone in case of an incident is the ideal. So if 4K does not achieve that with the location types I described, then no need for 4K. I could theoretically switch out some LIFX light bulbs to LIFX+ IR bulbs to assist the indoor cameras at night when lights are off. But if the built-in IR is good enough then that's great. I do want microphone.

I fully buy the points about avoiding brands like Lorex that strip features down. Would love more guidance into which specific models to get. For example with the recommended Dahua 5442 series, there are so many within the series, I'm a little lost in which direction to go.

 

[MYKMACSJ]

Hikvision DS-2CD2347G1-LU

Hikvision ColorVu DS-2CD2347G1-LU 4MP Outdoor Network Turret Camera with Spotlight & 2.8mm Lens

Buy Hikvision ColorVu DS-2CD2347G1-LU 4MP Outdoor Network Turret Camera with Spotlight & 2.8mm Lens featuring 2688 x 1520 Resolution at 30 fps, Auto Spotlight Illuminates up to 98', 2.8mm Fixed Lens, 109° Horizontal Field of View, Built-In Microphone, microSD Slot Supports up to 128GB, RJ45...

www.bhphotovideo.com

I currently have 5 colorvu cameras, they work great.

 

[Royal2000H]

@MYKMACSJ Thanks for the recommendation. It helped lead me to some comparison reviews that I think led me to narrow down onto the Dahua 5442 series. One of the big things steering me that way over the Hikvision you mentioned is the physical size difference of the cameras. The Dahuas seem way less intrusive.

Now I'm trying to decide which 5442 to get.
Looking at some of @EMPIRETECANDY popular models... Between IPC-T5442TM-AS and IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED, if I understand correctly: it seems the former has IR while the latter does not but has LEDs to compensate as well as probably better color night vision when out of IR mode (even with LED off). Given that I don't think I love the camera turning on LEDs (except maybe in one location in the outdoor back), I'll probably avoid the LED model.

Now, between IPC-T5442TM-AS and IPC-T5442T-ZE, I'm kinda stuck. I don't actually know what lens size I need, so varifocal seems to make sense right? Other than being more expensive, any downside to going with the varifocal model? I read somewhere it may let less light in - any truth to that? Is the varifocal noticeably physically bigger?

Thoughts? Any other models I should be looking at?

 

[dudemaar]

I believe the IPC-T5442TM-AS has a slightly better night vision than IPC-T5442T-ZE ,? but you would need to determine what fixed lens size to get for the IPC-T5442TM-AS (2.8, 3.6, 4, or 6mm) Whereas with the Varifocal you can just adjust between 2.8 - 12mm. I suppose if you used the IVPM calculator you could determine approx what lens size you would need. IPVM Camera Calculator V3

or you could order a varifocal first and use that to determine your focal length for other cameras using the ipcamtalk test rig, then order some fixed lensed cameras for those locations.

 

[samplenhold]

I was a fan of using a varifocal to calculate the fixed lens you needed. It worked great for me using the old 5231 turret varifocal back in 2018. This year I used that old cam to determine what fixed lens T5442TM-AS cams to get and was very happy with how that worked out.

Then I got the T5442 varifocal and was comparing it to the 6mm 5442 fixed lens and found that the calculations did not work. See the thread below. BTW In my driveway setting I really did not see much difference in the fixed versus varifocal quality in low light.

Comparison of a Fixed Lens and a Varifocal Lens Camera's FOV

I was testing out a new Dahua T5442T-ZE 2.7-12mm Varifocal camera (from @EMPIRETECANDY ) and was going to compare it's performance to the Dahua HDW5231R-ZE and the HDW5431R-ZE cameras, which are 2.7-13.5mm varifocals, along with the T5442TM-AS fixed lens at 6mm camera. The HDW5431R-ZE has been...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Royal2000H]

Then I got the T5442 varifocal and was comparing it to the 6mm 5442 fixed lens and found that the calculations did not work.

Interesting. And funny that that it worked across different models but not across varifocal vs fixed 5442.
Guess I can't go down the path @dudemaar suggested of using a varifocal to figure out which fixed I need.

Would be interesting to see side-by-side comparisons of the varifocal vs fixed in low light. (Glad to hear you aren't seeing decreased performance from the varifocal @samplenhold )

 

[samplenhold]

Would be interesting to see side-by-side comparisons of the varifocal vs fixed in low light

I am planning a thread on that. But it will have to wait a while as I am not at home for a few weeks.

 

[austwhite]

I know this is a little bit of an older thread and the OP has likely well and truly made a decision.
Budget probably plays the part in a purchase more than anything else.
If you look at budget cameras, and multiple reviews on YouTube and other sites, the Reolinks, at the price point, are actually good cameras. I can speak from experience owning 4 RLC-520's.
They don't have all the features and they only do H264, but quality of the image for a camera at that price point is hard to beat. I think the at that price point is the key to this.
If you are not particularly worried about price, then of course the Reolink doesn't stack up against some of the more expensive brands. I never quite understood the Reolink bashing on this forum considering how many reviews there are of them where they win out in their price bracket.
Just had to put that out there.
There is a certain hype about 4K (8MP) camera's. Personally, when comparing cameras, budget 4K's definitely are not worth it compared to budget 5MP camera's.
I would go a decent HikVision or similar at 5MP before I went down the 4K route.

Just my opinion

 

[Royal2000H]

I hadn't made a decision yet because I'm notoriously slow to pull the trigger and I'm also quite busy at work.
I'm probably going to go with a Dahua 5442 though.

It's difficult because I had this plan to get the Reolinks that would plug in PoE to a Reolink NVR with 24/7 recording and then maybe do event recording onto my Synology NAS (DS920+). I think having 24/7 recording of cameras will be a lot on the NAS that also hosts Plex, Sonarr, etc.
Now that I'll be going with the Dahuas, I don't know what NVR to go with. I assume the knee-jerk response here will be to go with a Blue Iris system, but then that's a whole rabbit hole to go down (what PC?, etc) and another system to have to keep up to date with.

I would love some AI recognition (person detection, etc) but when I checked the threads on that several months back, they seem to require one of various 3rd party tools that seemed to be in flux in long term compatibility.

 

[sebastiantombs]

All I can say is that even though I'm so cheap I squeak when sitting still, I wouldn't waste a dime on a Reolink camera again. Once was twice too often.