Choosing 16ch POE 4K NVR - please help clear up confusion

[Dave88LX]

I am looking at the 16ch NVRs through LTS and Nelly's (I don't have the knowledge or experience to buy direct through China/Ali, and I'm OK with that).

I'm not sure if 12MP is going to be necessary for my needs or if I'll be running any. The areas requiring the most camera power would be covering the shed out back, and covering the street in both directions for license plates. I posted a couple pics below to help decide if 12 MP is something that I would need to consider.

LTS has Pro+ and Enterprise level.
Appears the Enterprise (4K/8MP LTN8816K-P16) offers more storage capacity and more Alarm In/Out over the Pro+ (4K/8MP LTN8716K-P16). Nothing else really jumps out at me spec-wise. What am I missing?

If I opted to run up to 12MP and up to 32GB storage, then I would be looking at Pro+ LTN8616-P16, or Enterprise LTN8916-P16.

Nelly's has what looks to be comparable models with the 4K/8MP NSN-616(4K)-16P (same as LTS LTN8716K-P16) , and the 12MP NSN-7164K-16P (same as LTN8916-P16).

If they are in fact the same models, do the Nelly's systems offer anything over the LTS systems for the cost difference that I'm missing or not understanding?

Thank you so much!







I will also want the same thing going in the other direction to the left. Exact placement on the house will depend on where exactly the tree in my front yard lines up with the shot I'm trying to get, but this is just an example.

 

[mat200]

Hi Dave,

I'm new to this, and so I will just provide a reference to the Dahua OEM model many of us have picked up from Andy @EMPIRETECANDY a member of this forum so you can add it to a comparison and contrast with the other 2 models you are considering.

Dahua NVR5216-4KS2 / NVR5216-16P-4KS2

Have fun

 

[tigerwillow1]

I started with the LTS Enterprise nvr and switched to the Dahua 5216-4ks2. To be sure, they both have their bugs. I think the Dahua is the better choice. Just my opinion.

 

[Dave88LX]

I hadn't looked at Dahua options. Can you tell me what you like about those over these? I'll check them out, thank you.

 

[tigerwillow1]

At the time I had the LTS nvr, the firmware was many months behind the Hikvision versions in terms of features and bug fixes, and the nvr was unusable for my purposes (notice the qualifier "my purposes", as it may have been ok for others). Since that time LTS has come out with an update that addressed a lot of this, but that experience has permanently poisoned my attitude toward the resellers. The LTS PC client would not run more than an hour on my Win 7 system without crashing. I got around this by using the Hikvision ivms4200 client. There were multiple releases available and after combing through them I found one that didn't crash. By contrast, the Dahua smartPss client has never crashed on me. The LTS system let me set exposure and bit rate combinations that don't work. Just no video with no explanation. Dahua won't let me set combinations that don't work. With the 4MP EXIR cameras I tried, the comparable Dahua cameras were far superior in terms of feature content and image quality. Again I need to qualify that this isn't a blanket statement for all of the different camera families. This was just my experience. The short version is that both company's products are full of bugs, it's just that I can do my job ok with Dahua's, and couldn't with the other. The only feature I found where Hikvision/LTS is ahead is the virtual host feature.

 

[mat200]

Hi Dave,

There's a lot to pick up and learn here. Here's a quick summary of what I have been reading

1) NVRs - not perfect - but works well enough - i picked this route w/a NVR with built in POE switch because it was faster for me than waiting for a deal on a POE switch, a windows PC to run Blue Iris, and buying Blue Iris software. When I was purchasing I didn't see great deals on a POE switch so this saved me money.

2) Get the NVR which matches your camera's OEM / brand ( Hikvision cameras - get a Hikvision NVR. Dahua Cameras get a Dahua NVR ) This is because each has advanced features ( Dahua calls them IVS ) which uses their own ( either Dahua's or Hikvision's ) APIs between the cameras and the NVR to communicate.

3) Blue Iris - a LOT of people here really like it as an option. Suggestion is to purchase a used windows i5/i7 PC to run it, and of course you would also need a POE switch, as well as purchasing the Blue Iris software.

4) It is possible to run a hybrid solution with both NVR and Blue Iris - so buying an NVR now does not mean you have to give up the NVR if you decide to also get Blue Iris running.
( this is actually a good option - especially imho if you want to store your videos in multiple locations )

If you're comfortable with windows PCs and have the time you may also want to look at Blue Iris as an option. If you're in a hurry like I was perhaps getting an NVR will allow you to set up this quicker.

 

[Dave88LX]

That's tough. I read good and bad about both Hik and Dahua. Of course after you pick one, then it's a matter of which reseller/rebrand to buy.
Throw Security-Camera-Warehouse in the mix too. So many.
Still reading. Lots of reading.

 

[mat200]

That's tough. I read good and bad about both Hik and Dahua. Of course after you pick one, then it's a matter of which reseller/rebrand to buy.
Throw Security-Camera-Warehouse in the mix too. So many.
Still reading. Lots of reading.

Hi Dave,

What are your requirements? ( indoor, outdoor, daytime, nighttime, urban, home, work,... )
What are you looking to accomplish with a security camera system?

Looks like mostly looking to cover your home and ID potential suspects.

Probably the most important aspect of the project is getting the proper camera locations wired and the wiring job.

Once that is done you can easily upgrade or add to your IP camera network.

I found out that pulling N+1 wires to each location to be very useful ( N = the number of wires you think you need today ) as there is now a spot or 2 I would like to add a 4K camera to augment my Dahua starlight cameras. Ideally cameras would both have high res and be superb low light performers, however that isn't possible due to physics so right now I am thinking a mix of 4k and starlight cameras would represent a good compromise.

Originally I had more issues with night time delinquents, and now after watching numerous home invasion, package theft, and robbery videos realize that many people are gone during the day and thus their homes are vulnerable to day time attacks. Thus why I like the idea of 4K cameras for coverage during the day time as well as the starlights. ( iirc Hikvision also recently came out with a low light series )

I would even consider higher res cameras - however their price points are still significant for me.

Thank You

 

[Dave88LX]

Hi Dave,

What are your requirements? ( indoor, outdoor, daytime, nighttime, urban, home, work,... )
What are you looking to accomplish with a security camera system?

Yes...to most.
Mostly outdoors. A couple spots indoors where I'd cover my entryways. Something inside the garage to cover the doors/windows.
Cameras facing up and down the street to catch cars/license plates during daytime AND nighttime.
......(We live in a nice area but there's slimeballs who come out to play at night. Dozen+ unlocked cars in the neighborhood had things stolen out of them.
Camera covering the shed out back. Eventually Camera in the shed when I run power/ethernet out there.
Camera covering the front door and back door.
Camera covering the driveway and garage doors.
I'm sure there will be others as I think and expand, but those are the main things.

Intent is to have the quality high enough that suspects can be identified, not just see that someone was there. I understand that quality parts are not cheap.

I'm a network guy by trade so familiar with running cable and wiring/pinning Cat5e/Cat6 in commercial settings (drop ceilings, raised floors). Unsure how I'll do yet here. Eaves would be a PITA to get to with the attic insulation. I'll have to research if it's feasible to use the siding or channeling.

I see people love the Dahua Starlight cameras. I don't know if that's reason enough to build the whole system Dahua-centric or if Hik-based systems have a comparable camera.

So you guys are running a 4K for daytime PLUS a Starlight covering the same areas for nighttime?

I appreciate all the input!

 

[mat200]

..

I see people love the Dahua Starlight cameras. I don't know if that's reason enough to build the whole system Dahua-centric or if Hik-based systems have a comparable camera.

So you guys are running a 4K for daytime PLUS a Starlight covering the same areas for nighttime?

I appreciate all the input!

Hi Dave,

4K / 8MP cameras are fairly new as an "affordable" option as are the Dahua Starlight models.

I have not yet added a 4K camera. I have seen some great images and samples here by various members and believe that to be able to meet the requirements to be able to ID out at further distances from my walls that I would need to add at least a couple to help meet that ID distance need as I have no good choke point in front of the house.

The starlight varifocal turret which many people here like is about $170 and 1080p / 2MP. It does a great job with night time imaging, and a good job for the daytime. However, a 4K / 8MP camera gets about 2x the ID distance range. Example a 90 degree 4K ( 8MP ) camera will have about 25 feet to 100ppf, while a 2MP will be about 12.5 feet, or to get the 2MP camera to have 25 foot ID range we have to cut the angle in 1/2 = 45 degrees in this case.

To get the same horizontal pixel coverage I would need 2x more 2MP cameras vs the 4K ( 8MP ) cameras - provided that each pixel is effectively captured/used.

Now, during the day - we can basically see the 4K and 2MP starlight cameras getting each of those pixels effectively captured/used.
As we hit low light conditions / night time - the current non-starlight / non-low light camera quickly start to lose efficiency in terms of successful pixels captured/used - and that 4K camera which looks so good during the day starts to suffer.

Naturally it would require a lot of cameras to get full coverage, and UNFORTUNATELY - the police have told me that if a camera does not capture an event, OR if there is no witness of an event then the evidence is at best circumstantial and they are less likely to do anything about it.

Thus I would recommend getting enough coverage to ensure you have a high chance to ID a suspect as well as capture any act which maybe harmful to you and your property.

Also why I am considering additional 4K cameras to my mix of starlights to help increase ID distance and coverage during the day or under better lighting conditions.

.. bottom line.. need more cameras... ( front of house is completely open with significant vehicle and foot traffic - thus numerous approaches and difficult to cover as there is no choke point )

lol, good thing i pulled extra cat6/cat5e

 

[Dave88LX]

Great information.

I will say there is a lot of Dahua-love on this site from what I see so far, especially the Starlight cameras.

Is that because of the cameras or the NVRs? Are the Hik and Dahua NVRs pretty comparable in the same class?

Is the source listed above the best/main source for Dahua around here? I don't know anything about him/his business/his longevity or anything like that.

I remember milkisbad/LTS was here a while back when I first started reading, not sure if he is still around on here.

So much more reading to do.

 

[Dave88LX]

Hi Dave,

I'm new to this, and so I will just provide a reference to the Dahua OEM model many of us have picked up from Andy @EMPIRETECANDY a member of this forum so you can add it to a comparison and contrast with the other 2 models you are considering.

Dahua NVR5216-4KS2 / NVR5216-16P-4KS2

Have fun

Looked a bit at Empire's offerings and this NVR. My biggest concern I think with this one is if 12TB is going to be enough storage space.

I like the specs of this one which will do 12MP cams if I ever needed them? 32TB storage, and 320 Mbps incoming bitrate.
NVR5416/5432/5464-16P-4KS2 | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

 

[mat200]

Looked a bit at Empire's offerings and this NVR. My biggest concern I think with this one is if 12TB is going to be enough storage space.

I like the specs of this one which will do 12MP cams if I ever needed them? 32TB storage, and 320 Mbps incoming bitrate.
NVR5416/5432/5464-16P-4KS2 | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

FYI - I heard you can add 8TB HDD to the newer NVRs from members here who have tested 8TB HDDs

 

[mat200]

Hi Dave,

Lots to learn.

Dahua vs Hikvision - I came here originally more pro Hikvision - not knowing much.. needing low light camera solutions - and Dahua beat Hikvision to a reasonable product - the starlight turrets - thus I went Dahua. Had Hikvision had a solution at the time I was looking it would have required me to spent more time deciding which to go with.

Please check out @giomania 's notes, he has also make a document out of his notes, when I have time I'll try to remember the link he gave me, in the meanwhile checkout:
Dahua Starlight Varifocal Turret (IPC-HDW5231R-Z)

I have also made which are a summary of a lot of the reading I've been doing here,:
Looking for some advice and direction!

Have fun

 

[Dave88LX]

FYI - I heard you can add 8TB HDD to the newer NVRs from members here who have tested 8TB HDDs

OK I see that now on Dahua's page, AliExpress page doesn't reflect that yet.

Is there much of an application/need for the 12MP stuff for a homeowner? What use would it have, or is it something to think about for any sort of future-proofing?

 

[giomania]

Link in my signature for my "notes".

 

[Dave88LX]

Link in my signature for my "notes".

Good God! So much incredible information buried 154 pages deep into a post. Should be stickied!

Did a quick skimming for now, will read more in-depth later. One thing I caught quick is it's making me rethink my desire for a POE-based NVR.

 

[Dave88LX]

I see that 12MP cameras are starting around $800+. I guess I can take worrying about that factor out of the "hard requirements" of an NVR. The storage capacity of them is what's pushing me towards a X416 system over an X216.
See the bottom chart (NOT total cumulative, just 10 per) for the three different camera types, assuming running 10 of the same (which I won't, but trying to ballpark. Is 30 days storage about the correct goal?

5X16 = 12MP
4X16 = 4K/8MP

 

[mat200]

FYI - current Dahua 4K cameras are able to handle up to 15fps in 4K res, so that will save you some storage space with out too much loss of critical frames.

 

[Dave88LX]

FYI - current Dahua 4K cameras are able to handle up to 15fps in 4K res, so that will save you some storage space with out too much loss of critical frames.

For some reason I was thinking it captured 30fps...so I did some more reading.

What spec is telling of that?
NVR5208/5216/5232-4KS2 | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Record Rate: 320Mbps
Bit Rate: 16kbps~20Mbps for per channel

Recorded fps a function of the camera itself, is it? Up to the recording bitrate of the NVR to determine how many channels @ that Mbps it can handle?

I see the spec now on an 8MP camera:
Aliexpress.com : Buy 2017 New 8MP 4K WDR IR Bullet Network Camera IPC HFW5830E Z Without Dahua logo, free DHL shipping from Reliable network camera suppliers on Empire Technology Co., Ltd

• 15fps@4K(3840×2160),25/30fps@3Mp(2304×1296)