Camera recommendations for Europe

[luk8899]

The typical "go to" cameras recommended on the forum are either completely unavailable in Europe or the prices are absolutely bonkers (yes, $2K for a Dahua IPC-HF7442F-Z-X that sells for $330 in US).

In fact if it's any camera with larger pixel sizes the prices start at $1500 and only go up from there, even for old 2M ones. So it makes no sense so buy them.

But having large sensor size is not the only way you can get better night time quality. Another method is having a large objective lens. It seems the only well priced cameras with large objective lenses are those hanging sphere cameras with huge optical zooms like 90x. They usually come with imx415 (so only 1/2.8 sensor) and cpus support 30fps at 4k, various so so ai features like human tracking, but the real reason why bought them are objective lenses up to 30mm and sometimes focusing infrared Illumination as well so you can use them for identify pretty well. The usual price is $200~$300, fast ptz, poe built in of course and two way audio. Usually hikvision firmware.

I've been testing two of them for quite a while and I'm about to buy 4 more. Tell me why I should buy something else please . I'm not posting any links because the usual sites are full of them.

 

[steve1225]

The typical "go to" cameras recommended on the forum are either completely unavailable in Europe or the prices are absolutely bonkers (yes, $2K for a Dahua IPC-HF7442F-Z-X that sells for $330 in US).

In fact if it's any camera with larger pixel sizes the prices start at $1500 and only go up from there, even for old 2M ones. So it makes no sense so buy them.

But having large sensor size is not the only way you can get better night time quality. Another method is having a large objective lens. It seems the only well priced cameras with large objective lenses are those hanging sphere cameras with huge optical zooms like 90x. They usually come with imx415 (so only 1/2.8 sensor) and cpus support 30fps at 4k, various so so ai features like human tracking, but the real reason why bought them are objective lenses up to 30mm and sometimes focusing infrared Illumination as well so you can use them for identify pretty well. The usual price is $200~$300, fast ptz, poe built in of course and two way audio. Usually hikvision firmware.

I've been testing two of them for quite a while and I'm about to buy 4 more. Tell me why I should buy something else please . I'm not posting any links because the usual sites are full of them.

1. we never recommend 7442-X as go to camera.. it's camera for ANPR / Parking space management / heavy Video Meta Data / or any other PRO AI use...

2. price of cams from official Dahua channels in EU / Poland are inflated 3x to give up to 70% rebate for installers.. Plus import duty, 23% VAT and commission for Dahua Poland and resellers ..

3. the base recommended models on the forums are different variants of WizMind-S 5442-S3 (54IR in Andy shop) (lots of AI, only IR, fixed lens or varifocal 1-3x zoom ZE/ZHE or tele 3-9x zoom varifocal Z4E) and TIOC-PRO WizMind 3449H-AS-PV-PRO (Color4M in Andy Shop) (only IVS, dual light IR + white, white can be activated by humans/cars, speaker/siren, only fixed lens)...

4. you can order all those cams at prices from EmpireTech | Security Protection | Security Cameras & NVRs contacting by DM with Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY)... 2-3 weeks delivery time using tax free way or 1 week using normal way.. done multiple times for smaller and bigger order - zero problems..

 

[wittaj]

+1 above. Go with Empiretech.

 

[mat200]

The typical "go to" cameras recommended on the forum are either completely unavailable in Europe or the prices are absolutely bonkers (yes, $2K for a Dahua IPC-HF7442F-Z-X that sells for $330 in US).

In fact if it's any camera with larger pixel sizes the prices start at $1500 and only go up from there, even for old 2M ones. So it makes no sense so buy them.

But having large sensor size is not the only way you can get better night time quality. Another method is having a large objective lens. It seems the only well priced cameras with large objective lenses are those hanging sphere cameras with huge optical zooms like 90x. They usually come with imx415 (so only 1/2.8 sensor) and cpus support 30fps at 4k, various so so ai features like human tracking, but the real reason why bought them are objective lenses up to 30mm and sometimes focusing infrared Illumination as well so you can use them for identify pretty well. The usual price is $200~$300, fast ptz, poe built in of course and two way audio. Usually hikvision firmware.

I've been testing two of them for quite a while and I'm about to buy 4 more. Tell me why I should buy something else please . I'm not posting any links because the usual sites are full of them.

Hi @luk8899

Many of us on this forum have purchased our Dahua OEM cameras from Andy, EmpireTech and do recommend him.

DO see what he can offer, and hopefully the VAT / Tariffs / Taxes are within reason for you in Poland. ( do let us know )

I know in the USA things have gotten crazy on Tariffs.

 

[Iemand91]

2-3 weeks delivery time using tax free way or 1 week using normal way.. done multiple times for smaller and bigger order - zero problems..

Didn't know he had 2 different shipping methodes.
All things from him came delivered in about a week to The Netherlands with often a ~€10 import cost (from the shipping company; via a letter through the post about a week later)

 

[steve1225]

Didn't know he had 2 different shipping methodes.
All things from him came delivered in about a week to The Netherlands with often a ~€10 import cost (from the shipping company; via a letter through the post about a week later)

how long ago was that?
in past small value packages (up to declared 30-40 Euro) was tax free..

now in EU, shipments up to 150Euro can use simple method - you or sender must pay VAT (20-25% depending of country) for them...
for shipment above 150Euro You must do full customs - which usually ends with import duty + VAT + fee for courier/customs company...

 

[Iemand91]

how long ago was that?
in past small value packages (up to declared 30-40 Euro) was tax free..

now in EU, shipments up to 150Euro can use simple method - you or sender must pay VAT (20-25% depending of country) for them...
for shipment above 150Euro You must do full customs - which usually ends with import duty + VAT + fee for courier/customs company...

To be fair; I haven't bought anything from Andy lately, it's all camera's I won with the lotteries.
Including his last lottery.

I don't think I have any paperwork of these import costs still around, but I can check tomorrow.

 

[luk8899]

Thanks for your replies. I'll get in touch with Andy once I research these cameras a bit more but I expect shipping costs to be a bit of a show stopper, especially if I wanted to get just one or two initially (for 5+ I imagine shipping on a per camera basis is not that bad).

Then over here you're charged VAT not just on the product. Which is the same if I bought anything locally, but on shipping as well. So let's say $200 of shipping becomes $270 by the time VAT and handling charge is added.

Last time I checked I think it was last year. Perhaps this has changed (hopefully for the better not worse).

Surprisingly to many the actual tarrifs are very reasonable (1% or 2%, I recently paid 2.7% - on a fiber fusion welder from China, about $10 and then ups charged me $20 for submitting the paperwork I had to fill, and they submitted it with an error that doubled my VAT charge so now I'll be sending papers back and forth for weeks before I get it sorted). However, talking about VAT as it was a tariff is incorrect, because if I go to a local shop I pay the same VAT.

 

[steve1225]

Thanks for your replies. I'll get in touch with Andy once I research these cameras a bit more but I expect shipping costs to be a bit of a show stopper, especially if I wanted to get just one or two initially (for 5+ I imagine shipping on a per camera basis is not that bad).

Then over here you're charged VAT not just on the product. Which is the same if I bought anything locally, but on shipping as well. So let's say $200 of shipping becomes $270 by the time VAT and handling charge is added.

Last time I checked I think it was last year. Perhaps this has changed (hopefully for the better not worse).

Surprisingly to many the actual tarrifs are very reasonable (1% or 2%, I recently paid 2.7% - on a fiber fusion welder from China, about $10 and then ups charged me $20 for submitting the paperwork I had to fill, and they submitted it with an error that doubled my VAT charge so now I'll be sending papers back and forth for weeks before I get it sorted). However, talking about VAT as it was a tariff is incorrect, because if I go to a local shop I pay the same VAT.

I never paid for shipping ordering from Andy to Poland or Portugal...
As I told - Andy can send cams tax free - only problems this method require 2-3 weeks and tracking is only for last part in Europe (they looks like shipment from EU)..

 

[luk8899]

I've a had a look in Andy's shop.These 1/1.2 sensor cameras sure are interesting. But I have one question.

Do they work with IR Illumination? I don't want any white light Illumination. I see there are none offered with IR Illumination built in, but that is relatively easy to swap I imagine.

However, I suspect there are none offered with IR because this large sensor is only available with built in IR filter. Which is a complete show stopper for me.

Before anyone asks why etc. I live out in the country. I'd like not to have any unnecessary light pollution. Also unnecessary light at night is actually attracting crime around here rather than the opposite. All my yard lights are motion activated. All my existing cameras use IR at night (except one that I bought by mistake that is essentially useless at night without it's light).

 

[steve1225]

No, 1 gen Sony Starvis 1/1.2" sensor used in those cam don't see IR..

That cam have many problems (limited Depth of View - bokeh effect - very high digital sharpening which increases a lot of noise - compression artifacts).

This is also very old construction (video processing is 2 gen back of WizColor cams)..

We don't recommend those any more as go to cam..

 

[luk8899]

No, 1 gen Sony Starvis 1/1.2" sensor used in those cam don't see IR..

That cam have many problems (limited Depth of View - bokeh effect - very high digital sharpening which increases a lot of noise - compression artifacts).

This is also very old construction (video processing is 2 gen back of WizColor cams)..

We don't recommend those any more as go to cam..

but wait... didn't you say:

3. the base recommended models on the forums are different variants of WizMind-S 5442-S3 (54IR in Andy shop) (lots of AI, only IR, fixed lens or varifocal 1-3x zoom ZE/ZHE or tele 3-9x zoom varifocal Z4E) and TIOC-PRO WizMind 3449H-AS-PV-PRO (Color4M in Andy Shop) (only IVS, dual light IR + white, white can be activated by humans/cars, speaker/siren, only fixed lens)...

4. you can order all those cams at prices from EmpireTech | Security Protection | Security Cameras & NVRs contacting by DM with Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY)... 2-3 weeks delivery time using tax free way or 1 week using normal way.. done multiple times for smaller and bigger order - zero problems..

(emphasis added)

Unless by "base models" you meant what you said in your latest post.

So would it be true to say there are basically no 4K IR sensitive cameras that would feature low light sensitivity comparable to these 1/1.2 sensors for visible light?

Lets say I decide low light performance is more important than MP and go for 4MP. You mentioned WizzMind-S 5442-S3 as the base model. What would be a good model in this category (where IR and low light black and white sensitivity is most important to me). Other important features are: depth of focus, prefferably no bokeh/other artefacts, quick exposure adjustment so a flashlight doesn't blind it for a minute, good image quality.

Features that are nice to have but not that important: local storage, AI (I do all my processing server side)

Almost all my cameras currently have Sony IMX415 sensors and I use IR illumination a lot. I've ordered two (no name) 1/1.8 4MP cameras in the past just to see if they are better in low light conditions than imx415, but it doesn't seem so in my circumstances (but that may be a bit unfair as only one is IR illuminated and the IR it has is pretty weak).

 

[steve1225]

but wait... didn't you say:

(emphasis added)

Color4M not Color4K

Andy did a few mistakes doing own name schemes - this is one... Under Color naming scheme there are now 3 different generations of cams..

Color4K is Full Color 5849, Color4M is TIOC PRO 3449-PRO..

So would it be true to say there are basically no 4K IR sensitive cameras that would feature low light sensitivity comparable to these 1/1.2 sensors for visible light?

No... only 1/1.8" sensors and worse night performance that 4Mpx models...

Lets say I decide low light performance is more important than MP and go for 4MP. You mentioned WizzMind-S 5442-S3 as the base model. What would be a good model in this category (where IR and low light black and white sensitivity is most important to me). Other important features are: depth of focus, prefferably no bokeh/other artefacts, quick exposure adjustment so a flashlight doesn't blind it for a minute, good image quality.

All 5442-S3 models are the same (in context of sensor and video processing)..
You choose:

• between chassis: bullet vs turret - bullet for vertical mount, have 2x more IR diodes, turret for horizontal / under soffit mount
• lenses:
  • fixed 2.8/3.6 don't have optical zoom and are a little brighter,
  • varifocal ZE/ZHE offers optical zoom like 0.5 to 2x on iPhone, this lens is losing light when you zoom - 2x on ZE is much darker than 0.5x,
  • varifocal Z4E offers zoom like 2x to 6x and this lens is bright...

Can you wait a few weeks???..

Andy next week should have a few testing pieces for new WizColor 5449-PRO, which will be replacement for 2 gen old Full Color 5xx9 cams.

It will be mixture of WizMind-S 5442-S3 (all AI functionality + powerful SOC/CPU, selection of fixed and varifocal ZHE but not Z4E lenses) and TIOC-PRO 3449-PRO (dual IR + white, 4 LEDS both in bullet and turret, white activated by motion, speaker/siren, much open F1.0/F1.2 aperture to gather more light, newest WizColor AI video image processing)... Only 1/1.8" sensor for all resolutions....

Features that are nice to have but not that important: local storage, AI (I do all my processing server side)

Almost all my cameras currently have Sony IMX415 sensors and I use IR illumination a lot. I've ordered two (no name) 1/1.8 4MP cameras in the past just to see if they are better in low light conditions than imx415, but it doesn't seem so in my circumstances (but that may be a bit unfair as only one is IR illuminated and the IR it has is pretty weak).

Show images of your conditions..
if there is no light - all cams will work in IR mode...

WizMind-S / Full COlor / Wiz Color do a lot for night conditions - but there must be some light - street lights, garden lights etc - to work, especially in Color mode...

Big plus for Wiz Color cams is that they have dual light - IR can work for all night, but when camera will detect human / vehicle it can switch to white light and color mode.. Works very well...