Camera Conflicts

[nitwit]

Greetings. I'm having problems with three new Amcrest indoor cams (ip4m-1041W) that I recently added to BI. I have no trouble adding them however I can not have them enabled at the same time. One works with no problems at all but when I enable a second one my system starts to bog down a little. If I enable 3 at a time BI becomes useless. The other cams start randomly dropping off with no signal, video transmission becomes delayed and ptz response becomes extremely slow. The Amcrest cams remain working properly with the exception of a very slight delay in video response. The other cameras will regain signal and responsivness as soon as I disable 1 or 2 of the Amcrest cameras. It does not make a difference which one(s) I disable.

I have about a dozen cameras currently on the system, some cheap, some expensive. I have tried adding different brand cameras and they do not duplicated these issues. I've tried with decoder compatibility checked, framerates are matched, IP's are static and I have disabled hardware acceleration and all substreams. The cameras that lose signal are also difficult/buggy to reach through browser ui, until I disable one or more Amcrest cams inside of BI.

All cams are connected via wifi and the problem persists on 3 different routers.

Coincidentally, I have another system at another property that is behaving exactly the same with the addition of the same cameras.

It seems like I'm missing something (probably simple) but I can't figure it out. It's almost like some kind of frequency interference. I would greatly appreciate if any of you pros could enlighten me a little!

 

[wittaj]

I was first going to say it was an IP address conflict or a computer being overloaded....but then you mention wifi....

Wifi and cameras do not go together.

There are always ways if you don't want to run an ethernet cable.

You need power anyway, so go with a powerline adapter to run the date over your electric lines or use a nano-station.

Maybe you are fine now one day with wifi cams, but one day something will happen. A new device, neighbors microwave, etc.

Cameras connected to Wifi routers (whether wifi or not) are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent, especially once you start adding distance. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

So the more cameras you add, the bigger the potential for issues.

Many people unfortunately think wifi cameras are the answer and they are not. People will say what about Ring and Nest - well that is another whole host of issues that we will not discuss here LOL, but they are not streaming 24/7, only when you pull up the app. And then we see all the people come here after that system failed them because their wifi couldn't keep up when the perp came by. For streaming 24/7 to something like an NVR or Blue Iris, forget about it if you want reliability.

 

[fenderman]

This is an ip address conflict.

 

[nitwit]

I was first going to say it was an IP address conflict or a computer being overloaded....but then you mention wifi....

Wifi and cameras do not go together.

There are always ways if you don't want to run an ethernet cable.

You need power anyway, so go with a powerline adapter to run the date over your electric lines or use a nano-station.

Maybe you are fine now one day with wifi cams, but one day something will happen. A new device, neighbors microwave, etc.

Cameras connected to Wifi routers (whether wifi or not) are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent, especially once you start adding distance. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

So the more cameras you add, the bigger the potential for issues.

Many people unfortunately think wifi cameras are the answer and they are not. People will say what about Ring and Nest - well that is another whole host of issues that we will not discuss here LOL, but they are not streaming 24/7, only when you pull up the app. And then we see all the people come here after that system failed them because their wifi couldn't keep up when the perp came by. For streaming 24/7 to something like an NVR or Blue Iris, forget about it if you want reliability.

Thanks for the reply and I couldn't agree more, wired is much better. Some are wired at my other location but it's not as feasible at the one in question. I will say that even with the risks of wifi connections, this system has been very solid and stable until the addition of the new cams.

 

[nitwit]

This is an ip address conflict.

It seems like that but I have ip's static on both the cameras and on the router. I just double checked cams, BI and router and these three cams are occupying their respective ip, as well as the others occupying theirs. I also just tried to log into each cam via web interface and they all work fine. It's only when I enable more than one, inside of BI. I checked all other devices connected and ones that aren't connected but have ip assignments...i can't find a conflict.

 

[TonyR]

To echo what @wittaj said, consider a powerline adapter (PLA) such as this ==>> TP-Link AV1000 Powerline Ethernet Adapter(TL-PA7017P KIT)- Gigabit Port, Plug and Play, Extra Power Socket for Additional Devices, Ideal for Smart TV

I used one like it for 3 years without a hiccup until lightning fried it.

That being said, I have 3 non-critical duty, Amcrest IP2M-841's running wirelessly with terrific, but not perfect stability. I attribute most of their stability to being on their own Asus wireless router, configured as an AP-only (static LAN IP, DHCP disabled) and no other devices on that AP but those 3 cams. Typically, they will go offline for about 30 seconds every couple of weeks or so but again, they are non-critical (FlagCam, 2 petcams).

 

[SouthernYankee]

I have posted this before.
I did a WIFI test a while back with multiple 2MP cameras each camera was set to VBR, 15 FPS, 15 Iframe, 3072kbs, h.264. Using a WIFI analyzer I selected the least busy channel (1,6,11) on the 2.4 GHZ band and set up a separate access point. With 3 cameras in direct line of sight of the AP about 25 feet away I was able to maintain a reasonable stable network with only intermittent signal drops from the cameras. Added a 4th camera and the network became totally unstable. Also add a lot of motion to the 3 cameras caused some more network instability. More data more instability.
The cameras are nearly continuously transmitting. So any lost packet causes a retry, which cause more traffic, which causes more lost packets.
WIFI does not have a flow control, or a token to transmit. So your devices transmit any time they want, more devices more collisions.
As a side note, it is very easy to jam a WIFI network. WIFI is fine for watching the bird feed but not for home surveillance and security.
The problem is like standing in a room, with multiple people talking to you at the same time about different subjects. You need to answer each person or they repeat the question.

Test do not guess.

For a 802.11G 2.4 GHZ WIFI network the Theoretical Speed is 54Mbps (6.7MBs) real word speed is nearer to 10-29Mbps (1.25-3.6 MBs) for a single channel

 

[nitwit]

I have posted this before.
I did a WIFI test a while back with multiple 2MP cameras each camera was set to VBR, 15 FPS, 15 Iframe, 3072kbs, h.264. Using a WIFI analyzer I selected the least busy channel (1,6,11) on the 2.4 GHZ band and set up a separate access point. With 3 cameras in direct line of sight of the AP about 25 feet away I was able to maintain a reasonable stable network with only intermittent signal drops from the cameras. Added a 4th camera and the network became totally unstable. Also add a lot of motion to the 3 cameras caused some more network instability. More data more instability.
The cameras are nearly continuously transmitting. So any lost packet causes a retry, which cause more traffic, which causes more lost packets.
WIFI does not have a flow control, or a token to transmit. So your devices transmit any time they want, more devices more collisions.
As a side note, it is very easy to jam a WIFI network. WIFI is fine for watching the bird feed but not for home surveillance and security.
The problem is like standing in a room, with multiple people talking to you at the same time about different subjects. You need to answer each person or they repeat the question.

Test do not guess.

For a 802.11G 2.4 GHZ WIFI network the Theoretical Speed is 54Mbps (6.7MBs) real word speed is nearer to 10-29Mbps (1.25-3.6 MBs) for a single channel

The part that is annoying me is the fact that it's only THESE specific cameras doing it...i've added 4 other cameras at one time without issue. crappy ones too...a couple of old boavisions, some no-name cam and even an old pos foscam that was sunburnt and had bugs and mud all over it. Everything remained fine with those but turn on 1 or 2 amcrest and everything tanks. Funny you mention bird feeders as 2 of the cameras are actually just for bird feeders an a couple more for other critters, but I still want them to work.

 

[wittaj]

At some point the network becomes saturated and it sounds like you are beyond that point.

Maybe the others don't transmit as much to cloud as the amcrest.

The amcrest are 4MP and the others you have are probably a lot less.

Go the other way around - disconnect all the other cameras and add these 1 by 1.

But as you saw above in his test, after four 2MP cams were added, it became unstable. So your 1 4MP cam is basically two 2MP cams...

 

[nitwit]

At some point the network becomes saturated and it sounds like you are beyond that point.

Maybe the others don't transmit as much to cloud as the amcrest.

The amcrest are 4MP and the others you have are probably a lot less.

Go the other way around - disconnect all the other cameras and add these 1 by 1.

But as you saw above in his test, after four 2MP cams were added, it became unstable. So your 1 4MP cam is basically two 2MP cams...

What you are saying makes sense. To quickly test that i just disabled 5 5mp cams, 1 2mp and 2 4mp. I left only 2 5mp cams and the 3 amcrest cameras. The Amcrests worked great but the 2 5mp were buggy and delayed however they did not drop out this time. The 2 boavisions I tested were 5mp (advertised anyway).

 

[TonyR]

I have posted this before.
I did a WIFI test a while back with multiple 2MP cameras each camera was set to VBR, 15 FPS, 15 Iframe, 3072kbs, h.264. Using a WIFI analyzer I selected the least busy channel (1,6,11) on the 2.4 GHZ band and set up a separate access point. With 3 cameras in direct line of sight of the AP about 25 feet away I was able to maintain a reasonable stable network with only intermittent signal drops from the cameras. Added a 4th camera and the network became totally unstable. Also add a lot of motion to the 3 cameras caused some more network instability. More data more instability.
The cameras are nearly continuously transmitting. So any lost packet causes a retry, which cause more traffic, which causes more lost packets.
WIFI does not have a flow control, or a token to transmit. So your devices transmit any time they want, more devices more collisions.
As a side note, it is very easy to jam a WIFI network. WIFI is fine for watching the bird feed but not for home surveillance and security.
The problem is like standing in a room, with multiple people talking to you at the same time about different subjects. You need to answer each person or they repeat the question.

+1^^.
Which is why I have only 3 total, they're only 2MP, are on their own, dedicated AP and they aren't critical.

 

[nitwit]

If anyone with this problem stumbles across this thread, my solution was to ditch the Amcrest cams. It's disappointing because I have had good experiences with Dahua's commercial stuff, but these residential cams are a disaster. I've tried everything to make them work without screwing up my network but I couldn't figure it out. The problem is NOT my wifi setup as it has been working solid for 3 years with many cameras coming and going, none of which derail the network like these cams. The exact behavior is repeated on my new router (it's a nice one too). I now have 14 cameras running smoothly, wheras I can not run more than 5 total if I enable the Amcrests, and even that is choppy. I can literally watch all of the other cams Rx on router drop to 1 Mbps (from avg of 58-70) the second I enable them. I wish I knew the answer to make these work properly with Blue Iris as now I have a box full of camera-shaped paperweights.

 

[TonyR]

If anyone with this problem stumbles across this thread, my solution was to ditch the Amcrest cams.

Gee, that's strange.....my three 2MP Amcrests work VERY well wirelessly as mentioned in my post #6:

"I have 3 non-critical duty, Amcrest IP2M-841's running wirelessly with terrific, but not perfect stability. I attribute most of their stability to being on their own Asus wireless router, configured as an AP-only (static LAN IP, DHCP disabled) and no other devices on that AP but those 3 cams. Typically, they will go offline for about 30 seconds every couple of weeks or so but again, they are non-critical (FlagCam, 2 petcams)."​

 

[nitwit]

Gee, that's strange.....my three 2MP Amcrests work VERY well wirelessly as mentioned in my post #6:

"I have 3 non-critical duty, Amcrest IP2M-841's running wirelessly with terrific, but not perfect stability. I attribute most of their stability to being on their own Asus wireless router, configured as an AP-only (static LAN IP, DHCP disabled) and no other devices on that AP but those 3 cams. Typically, they will go offline for about 30 seconds every couple of weeks or so but again, they are non-critical (FlagCam, 2 petcams)."​

Strange indeed, and frustrating. I originally only bought one to test drive and liked the performance and image quality so I ordered 5 more...3 for one property, three for another. The other system performs the same way and it has fewer total cameras and far less network traffic. No matter what I try, I can only use one without experiencing these problems.

 

[wittaj]

So have you tried as Tony suggested and put the wifi cams on their own wifi router and then hardware from that router back into your main router?

Most of us have an old wifi router laying around that makes that easy to try, so maybe you have one laying around?

Did you use P2P or scan a QR code for the Amcrest cameras? If so, maybe they are simply using too much bandwidth constantly phoning home and bogging down the camera processor itself.

If that is how you set it up, what about a factory reset and set it up without the video having to get routed to external servers and back.

 

[nitwit]

So have you tried as Tony suggested and put the wifi cams on their own wifi router and then hardware from that router back into your main router?

Most of us have an old wifi router laying around that makes that easy to try, so maybe you have one laying around?

Did you use P2P or scan a QR code for the Amcrest cameras? If so, maybe they are simply using too much bandwidth constantly phoning home and bogging down the camera processor itself.

If that is how you set it up, what about a factory reset and set it up without the video having to get routed to external servers and back.

Hi Wittaj thanks. Yes I thought my old router may have been part of the problem since it had other quirks going on also (it was old) so when I bought a new one (ASUS Pro ET12) I separated it into different networks and installed ONLY my cameras. I was dissapointed to see the exact same results. I now have other devices on the router but nothing other than cams on the 2.4ghz. I use the 5ghz for a couple of firesticks, 2 phones and 2 tablets, and sometimes the 6E for one desktop (the desktop was just added, long after the cam problem started). I don't use dhcp and everything on my network has an assigned ip.

That makes 3 routers now that I've experienced this on...2 that had only cams and one that, admittedly, may have had a bit too much activity.

No barcodes, p2p etc. I plugged them into my router out of the box, saw the ip show up, navigated to ip through browser, disabled p2p and continued setup process. Rebooted after assigning an ip on both the camera and the router and then had BI find them. They actually install very well.

The actual camera being bogged down, or overworking somehow, is something I was suspicious about too, but I'm not sure if it is from p2p-type or calling activity. Running nmap reveals a couple of open ports that I'm not sure about but unfortunately my expertise on this sort of thing is limited.

I've done multiple factory resets just to try different settings but unfortunately nothing changed.

 

[TonyR]

You've been jumping through some necessary hoops but I have one (I think) last question:

What is the exact hardwire path from the wireless router that the wireless cams are on to the BI server that serves those wireless cams?

 

[nitwit]

You've been jumping through some necessary hoops but I have one (I think) last question:

What is the exact hardwire path from the wireless router that the wireless cams are on to the BI server that serves those wireless cams?

Standard ethernet cable from router to the BI server. The cable pops up into the attic and runs about 10ft before dropping to the computer. Before that it was from the router directly to the computer 5ft away. I moved the router hoping for better signals but it didn't make a difference. I have used both the hardwired standard port and the 2.5ghz port, as well as trying out the 6E and the 2.4ghz. Also, the server is new, but the old machine was in use when this started, so again, no change from old to new.