If computer processing power, storage, etc aren't a concern, is there a reason to not run 30 FPS on a camera like the 5442? Let's say the camera is pointed towards the street and a truck with a company logo on the side drives by at 30 MPH. Will 10, 15, 20, 30 FPS make a difference in being able to identify the logo? I've followed all the guidelines on shutter speed, gain, etc and have a nice image, just not sure why the common theme seems to be that there's no reason to run 30 FPS. Is it just because of storage and CPU demands or is image quality also better at the slower FPS?
Why not 30 FPS?
- Thread starter TuckNTruck
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mat200
IPCT Contributor
- Jan 17, 2017
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Hi @TuckNTruck
15 vs 30 fps ..
as you noted, processing power and storage ..
some cameras can not do 30 fps along with camera based analytics and you have to dial down the fps if you want the camera to do other processing ( motion detection, line crossing, AI .. depends on the camera's processing power )
so depends on your kit and budget .. for most cases 15 fps is good, as the goal is to get good IDable images not smooth motion in most security camera setups.
Also, H264 and H265 apply here .. and in some cases H264 is better to use .. even tho H265 saves more space ..
if you plan to use the camera for streaming to youtube, then definitely go 30fps and tune the camera for stream quality ..
As you have seen, shutter speed is more important than FPS. I have a camera set up for LPR and run it at 8 FPS and get every plate and the car is in and out of the field of view in less than a second.
Running a camera at every rated spec can cause other issues and impact image quality.
Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of an option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.
Or growing up and my parents are driving on the highway up a steep grade, in the summer we would hit the turbo button (turn off the AC LOL) on our little 4 cylinder so that we could stay the speed limit going up the hill. Same thing running a camera at rated spec.
Look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite or despite the proper shutter speed they can't get a good freeze frame picture and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...
Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.
In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU or cut bitrate or be slow to detect an object, etc, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.
Sure 30 or 60FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable. My neighbor runs his at 60FPS, so the person or car goes by looking smooth, but it is a blur when trying to freeze frame it because the camera can't keep up with his other settings.. Meanwhile my camera at 15FPS with the proper shutter speed gets the clean shots.
So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.
Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.
This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.
At the end of the day, if the consumer wants cameras that can do 30FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.
And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.
And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature...
We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that, so more FPS isn't needed and is simply a waste of storage space and potentially causing something to be missed while the camera CPU is maxing out.
Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS
Running a camera at every rated spec can cause other issues and impact image quality.
Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of an option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.
Or growing up and my parents are driving on the highway up a steep grade, in the summer we would hit the turbo button (turn off the AC LOL) on our little 4 cylinder so that we could stay the speed limit going up the hill. Same thing running a camera at rated spec.
Look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite or despite the proper shutter speed they can't get a good freeze frame picture and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...
Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.
In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU or cut bitrate or be slow to detect an object, etc, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.
Sure 30 or 60FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable. My neighbor runs his at 60FPS, so the person or car goes by looking smooth, but it is a blur when trying to freeze frame it because the camera can't keep up with his other settings.. Meanwhile my camera at 15FPS with the proper shutter speed gets the clean shots.
So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.
Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.
This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.
At the end of the day, if the consumer wants cameras that can do 30FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.
And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.
And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature...
We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that, so more FPS isn't needed and is simply a waste of storage space and potentially causing something to be missed while the camera CPU is maxing out.
Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS
It just depends on the situation.
An object moves about 1.5 feet per second for every MPH of speed it is moving. So a vehicle traveling 30 mph will move 44ft in 1 second. A camera recording 15fps will generally get one frame for every 3ft of travel while a camera recording 30 fps will obviously get a frame about every 1.5'. Depending on how "zoomed" in your cameras view is, that might make a difference or it might not.
Vehicle recording is probably the "worse case" scenario and may require faster frame rates. However if the camera is designed to capture primarily non-motorized movement, then lower frame rates are generally more than acceptable. A person running might be moving at 8mph, so about 12' in 1 second. Even at 12 fps, you would have a frame for every foot moved which is probably more than enough. A walking subject requires even lower frame rates.
An object moves about 1.5 feet per second for every MPH of speed it is moving. So a vehicle traveling 30 mph will move 44ft in 1 second. A camera recording 15fps will generally get one frame for every 3ft of travel while a camera recording 30 fps will obviously get a frame about every 1.5'. Depending on how "zoomed" in your cameras view is, that might make a difference or it might not.
Vehicle recording is probably the "worse case" scenario and may require faster frame rates. However if the camera is designed to capture primarily non-motorized movement, then lower frame rates are generally more than acceptable. A person running might be moving at 8mph, so about 12' in 1 second. Even at 12 fps, you would have a frame for every foot moved which is probably more than enough. A walking subject requires even lower frame rates.
That's a great explanation and it helped me understand why I may not need 30 fps. However, if I want to record at 15 fps, I still may want a 30 fps camera. As you explained, capturing video at 30 fps on a 30 fps camera is maxing it out, which is not good. Likewise, I would say that capturing video at 15 fps on a 15 fps camera is also maxing it out, and also not good. What about buying a 30 fps camera, and running it at 15 fps? That would give me an acceptable frame rate of 15 fps while not overloading the camera.
bigredfish
Known around here
^^^^
THIS
While yes, Exposure is more important, I've run 30FPS on all of my cameras since 2014 with no ill effects. Those who have seen my video captures would agree they're pretty good. I've yet to "wear out" a camera running it at 30FPS. We're not talking about crankshafts and rotating mass here. Do you De-tune your PC to run slower? Your TV?
IMHO the only reason NOT to run 30FPS is if your hardware constrains you from doing so
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Correct.
The only times I have seen 30 fps cameras not perform is either from networking hardware issues or a problem with the camera itself. I encountered it more on cheap cameras where I would get one out of 50 wouldn't do its 8MP@30fps.
Its not really maxing anything out as much as some cheap cameras don't heat sink their processors well and it throttles back its clock speed to prevent its self destruction.
fps does effect the processor's temperature, but its not maxing anything out besides what is wrong with a cheaply built camera.
bigredfish
Known around here
30 FPS on two different 4MP sensors (1/2.8" and 1/1.8") both running 10240 bitrate, CBR, H.264.h, 1/1000 exposure
Not cherry picked the last 2 caps I saved on those cameras
and a 4K snap running 30FPS, 16384, CBR, H.264.h, 0-2 expsoure
I think the #1 determining quality factor for our cameras is light. Then exposure
Not cherry picked the last 2 caps I saved on those cameras
and a 4K snap running 30FPS, 16384, CBR, H.264.h, 0-2 expsoure
I think the #1 determining quality factor for our cameras is light. Then exposure
You are discounting the fact that recording 30 frames per second will take up twice as much storage space as a recording that is only 15 frames per second. While I realize storage is cheap, it is still helpful to set your frame rate at an appropriate speed for the subjects you are going to be capturing. My post above talks about how slower frame rates are more than enough for non-motorized subjects. For those cameras, having a lower frame rate will not affect the "quality of the capture" but could easily allow you to store twice as much footage before having to delete it.
Long story short, running every camera at 30 frames per second is likely wasting your storage space and forcing the system to trash videos much sooner than it would if the frame rate was set appropriately for the subjects being captured.
bigredfish
Known around here
Running more FPS will not make pictures any clearer.
Yet, high FPS may give you the clear picture you want.
I run captures 24/7 no sub streams.
I run cameras at max resolution
Overview usually the highest VBR the camera will do.
Recognize/Identify is normally set at a high CBR.
About two years ago as the police arrived, I heard one police officer telling another officer "This guy has huge files".
I like setting 16 fps as a general rule. Looks smooth to me.
Camera looking at table for document captures set to 10FPS - this probably still too high, those suckers move slow.
I have two LPC cams set to 22 FPS due to limited view angle with high speed vehicles. As the sun changes during the day the extra frames allow a better chance some of the license plate pictures will not be washed out by the sun.
Logo on the side of truck you mentioned, depending on sun and time of day, may also get washed out higher FPS might help.
If you are setting this up for somebody else follow their instructions.
If you are setting this up for yourself(Hobby?) follow your heart.
If you make a mistake learn from it, on this site I think we all have, I know I have.
Storage is for cameras is now relatively cheap.
Long time ago my first computer hard drive was 80 meg.
Now my cameras network is passing 80 meg of data every second.
If you can afford the computer processing power, storage then do what you want.
bigredfish
Known around here
Preface:
I’m not a professional video engineer. There are plenty of sources online that go into the subject in excruciating detail and will make your eyes glaze over. Plenty of folks here in this forum know FAR more about the subject than I do. This is mostly just my observational opinion. And we all know opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
I think this discussion (we’ve had it numerous times over the years, not new) often comes down to :
1- Is higher fps needed?
in many/most cases, NO.
Though I would argue there are a number of scenes where it can help: LPR shows a clear benefit as I have more frames to choose from to get the best capture. Even a quick turn of a head on a close in face capture (at your door) can benefit for the same reason) And in my flying heron capture in my post above, I had more frames to choose from to get that shot with the wings spread at 30fps than I would at 15
2- does higher fps tax your system resources more? YES. But my argument is that the constraint is your recording system, NVR or computer based VMS, (and potentially other network components) ability to stream/encode the video. If your system struggles with higher FPS or it reduces the number of streams it can encode simultaneously, then reducing FPS can lighten that load. All systems have a limit.
3- can reducing FPS reduce storage requirement? YES
As discussed above. So will using codecs like h.265 which are specifically purposed to reduce bandwidth requirements and storage space needs using “smarter” compression. This is not a quality benefit it's an “efficiency” benefit.
Overall I look the issue the same as blonde vs brunette, Ford vs Chevy. Do what you want, or what your system allows. 99% of the time for our purposes it will make little or no difference
I’m not a professional video engineer. There are plenty of sources online that go into the subject in excruciating detail and will make your eyes glaze over. Plenty of folks here in this forum know FAR more about the subject than I do. This is mostly just my observational opinion. And we all know opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
I think this discussion (we’ve had it numerous times over the years, not new) often comes down to :
1- Is higher fps needed?
in many/most cases, NO.
Though I would argue there are a number of scenes where it can help: LPR shows a clear benefit as I have more frames to choose from to get the best capture. Even a quick turn of a head on a close in face capture (at your door) can benefit for the same reason) And in my flying heron capture in my post above, I had more frames to choose from to get that shot with the wings spread at 30fps than I would at 15
2- does higher fps tax your system resources more? YES. But my argument is that the constraint is your recording system, NVR or computer based VMS, (and potentially other network components) ability to stream/encode the video. If your system struggles with higher FPS or it reduces the number of streams it can encode simultaneously, then reducing FPS can lighten that load. All systems have a limit.
3- can reducing FPS reduce storage requirement? YES
As discussed above. So will using codecs like h.265 which are specifically purposed to reduce bandwidth requirements and storage space needs using “smarter” compression. This is not a quality benefit it's an “efficiency” benefit.
Overall I look the issue the same as blonde vs brunette, Ford vs Chevy. Do what you want, or what your system allows. 99% of the time for our purposes it will make little or no difference
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And the IRS has the most......and I don't mean opinions.
(sorry...I just couldn't resist)
bigredfish
Known around here
mat200
IPCT Contributor
- Jan 17, 2017
- 16,118
- 27,080
