Upgrading from Reolink - looking for information and opinions

scotty562

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We've got around 15 Reolink cameras around our business and for the most part they do ok. Their time to be upgraded has come as one was only able to get a partial license plate of a parked car because it was a blurry mess at night.

A few things I really like about Reolink and I would want in a new system:
  1. The Reolink software lets me filter recordings if they have people or vehicles in them.
  2. The software is built for Reolink and isn't just some generic junky software that half the features don't work.
  3. The software plays these records back from sd card without any other hardware needed.
We got a Sunba Illuminati and being able to crank up the shutter speed helps identify vehicles, but the software is terrible. It can't do vehicle or human identification in the recordings and the software is terrible. If the software of this camera was as good as Reolink's I'd be happy.

I'm open to Hikvision and Dahua, but I'm afraid of having the same issues. So I'd like to know how others feel. Is the software of Hikvision or Dahua as good as Reolink's? Feels weird asking that question giving how much more expensive the cameras are. Also money isn't much of an issue. I just need something that is as better than Reolink I don't want to take steps backwards.
 

mat200

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FYI - for those looking for Reolink info, we have a thread on some comparison and discussion ..

 

mat200

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We've got around 15 Reolink cameras around our business and for the most part they do ok. Their time to be upgraded has come as one was only able to get a partial license plate of a parked car because it was a blurry mess at night.

A few things I really like about Reolink and I would want in a new system:
  1. The Reolink software lets me filter recordings if they have people or vehicles in them.
  2. The software is built for Reolink and isn't just some generic junky software that half the features don't work.
  3. The software plays these records back from sd card without any other hardware needed.
We got a Sunba Illuminati and being able to crank up the shutter speed helps identify vehicles, but the software is terrible. It can't do vehicle or human identification in the recordings and the software is terrible. If the software of this camera was as good as Reolink's I'd be happy.

I'm open to Hikvision and Dahua, but I'm afraid of having the same issues. So I'd like to know how others feel. Is the software of Hikvision or Dahua as good as Reolink's? Feels weird asking that question giving how much more expensive the cameras are. Also money isn't much of an issue. I just need something that is as better than Reolink I don't want to take steps backwards.
Welcome @scotty562

" .. Their time to be upgraded has come as one was only able to get a partial license plate of a parked car because it was a blurry mess at night. .. "

A good place to start is the LPR section ...

update: Also if you have an example picture you would like to share, that is typically very helpful

FYI - Reolink is known for poor low light performance ..
 
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scotty562

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First thanks for the info and your time.

I've attached a picture of the theft that triggered my upgrade need. The Illuminati I'm testing would be able to read that plate no problem while providing general coverage as well plus it can track. I not sure I need a dedicated LPR camera, but I do want a camera that's better than the Reolink.

I'm looking at the Pro Series with AcuSense on Hikvision's website. I don't know what the difference between the 4, 5, 7 inch models are. S5/F1/T5/DE/AE no idea what these mean. The ability to follow the motion would be a big plus which I believe these cameras can do too.
 

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sebastiantombs

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Three rules
Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.

1/3" = .333" Great for 720P
1/2.8" = .357" (think a .38 caliber bullet) Great for 2MP
1/1.8" = .555" (bigger than a .50 caliber bullet or ball) Great for 4MP
1/1.2" = .833" (bigger than a 20mm chain gun round) Great for 8MP

Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance.

Read the reviews here, most include both still shots and video.

Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1.60 or higher to get night video without blurring.


Looking at your screen capture that camera is far too high to be effective, Reolink, Hikvision or Dahua. Cameras need to be no higher than eight feet or all you'll get is the tops of heads or angles that eliminate positive identification. The only exception to this rule is a PTZ with a lot of optical zoom. Digital zoom doesn't work well, even with 8MP, because as you zoom in the pixels become bigger which makes the picture blocky and blurry.

This camera has auto tracking if purchased through Andy at EmpireTech. He's a member here and has an excellent reputation. Even at 2MP, a good 2MP PTZ camera that is set up properly will blow away a higher resolution camera, especially consumer grade cameras like Reolink.

25X PTZ
 

wittaj

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Another one burned by the Reolinks....

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. Based on what you are showing, unless you mount lower, fixed cams will only be good overview points but not IDENTIFY capable.

A few other tips....It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k (8MP) cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms, so don't be sold on those names.

While we are at it, let's make sure you get the right camera...

To identify someone with the wide-angle 2.8mm lens that most people opt for, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.


1639680440410.png


The higher the camera is placed, the more OPTICAL zoom is needed to "flatten the angle". My PTZ on the 2nd floor gives me a great level shot of someone 200 feet away because that distance helps to flatten the angle. With a fixed cam lens, you get what you get.

For example, if you place a camera that high up that looks roughly 25-30 feet up and someone stands 1 foot away from your house, all you will see is the top of their head, even though according to charts and calculators you should be able to IDENTIFY from that distance. The distances in the chart are assuming the cameras are placed at head height. All of the IDENTIFY distance was lost in the vertical.

It is why we recommend to purchase one good varifocal and test it at all the proposed locations day and night to figure out the correct focal lengths and cams.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. Meanwhile my 2MP varifocal optically zoomed 60 feet away to the public sidewalk provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back. Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well. These cameras meet all your requirements.
  • 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
  • 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
  • 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
  • 49225 PTZ - great auto-track PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.
You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

Main keys are you can't locate the camera too high (not on the 2nd story or above 7 feet high unless it is for overview and not Identification purposes unless it is a PTZ or varifocal that can "flatten the angle by optically zooming further out) or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who. Also, do not chase marketing phrases like ColorVu and Starlight and Full Color and the like - all cameras need light - simple physics...

We recommend a purchase of one good varifocal and test it at all the proposed locations day and night to figure out the correct focal lengths and cams.


A trusted vendor here is Andy @EMPIRETECANDY that sells Dahua and Hikvision OEM cameras.

Amazon.com

Regarding a camera for plates (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

1639680486616.png


Because of this, a PTZ to serve double duty as a way to track visitors and plate identification will not work. As you can see, at night all you will see are plates and head/tail lights. In addition, because it is so dark, the focus needs to be set before it gets dark, so once a PTZ starts moving around at night, it will be useless for plates.

Under ideal situations like with you testing it, your Sunba may get lucky with plates, but any movement at night with the vehicle and you are SOL. I have a Sunba PTZ as my first PTZ and believe me I tried it...
 
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scotty562

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Ok that's a lot to process thank you for the info. I have the option of adding as much visible light as I want so that's also an option. I will light up our property like a football stadium if necessary. Like I mentioned the software end of things is equally important to me. That's one thing that's kept me from moving away from Reolink. The software is amazing. It's not that they are useless cameras either. We caught the guy in that photo I posted. He was dumb enough to come steal from the place he worked at in his day to day vehicle. Up until this guy management wouldn't have went for a $1,000+ camera's and now they will. It is clear though I will need to have a separate dedicated LPR camera.

I'm looking at the DS-2DE7A432IW-AEB(T5) It's got a 1/1.8" lens. It looks like it checks all the boxes.
Something like DS-2CD7A26G0/P-IZHS for the license plate reader.
 

wittaj

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You were "lucky" that you knew the guy and could recognize him from that video.

A total stranger would have been a different outcome.

Those two HIK are good cameras.

Do keep in mind that a PTZ to cover a large area will likely mean it is looking the wrong way when something happens. Unless there is truly only one way in and out, it will miss. But even if there is only one way in and out, the moment someone stops, an autotracking would stop and go back to its preset.

You should look for some additional cams as well.
 

Flintstone61

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I found out thru each crime event what the weaknesses are at my particular location. takes two cameras at some locations to get what you need to interest the County Sheriff, 1. A plate #, 2 a good suspect image or vehicle description.
If I don't have a plate and a face, Thay ask if I really want an officer to respond to investigate. Cuz I got nuthin.
 

scotty562

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I agree it was lucky. But at the same time this is the kind of place strangers don't go. Anyone that comes here knows exactly what they're after. I had a camera inside the building that he didn't know was there as well. He looked right at it with the stuff he stole in hand. I couldn't have planned it better. As far as the PTZ goes I understand its limitations. It will be pointed at the only path in and out and reset after the motion passes. I have around 15 cameras, but that number will likely go to 20+ as soon as I find a system I like.

I'm assuming Andy @EMPIRETECANDY is overseas? I sent him a message I'm assuming he normally responds in a few days?
 

wittaj

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OK, good to hear you have more cams! With a real system like Hik or Dahua, you can program the fixed cams to be spotter cams to help point the PTZ to the right spot.

Andy is in Hong Kong, but is VERY responsive. Many of us message with him up until 10pm-midnight his time and he responds immediately - the guy only sleeps and works. Since it is 3am there, once he wakes up, he will respond to you.
 

mat200

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Ok that's a lot to process thank you for the info...
Hi @scotty562

Reolink has some issues which are beyond the low light issues, a lot of compatibility issues which cause trouble with them ( see the prior thread ).

Do check out the DORI section of the cliff notes.

Most likely more cameras, and larger sensor sizes will help.

Hikvision vs Dahua .. many of us like them here for non-USA government / defense industry setups ... still you do want to be certain to isolate them from the network as much as possible.
( IoT and IP cameras systems have far too many IT security issues imho .. )

If you can afford them, I would look at some of the killer 8MP cameras which have the larger sensors .. ( iirc 1/1.2" ) ..

For example ..

Hikvision also has models with these larger sensors ..

Chances are, with enough light you may only need these in some of the lower light views ...

Judging by the height of the view, I would consider adding more cameras which have a stronger lenses ( i.e. tighter FOV ) so you can focus further way and get a better angle on subjects. You can use this to cover the critical choke points to get solid id info.
 
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