Totally confused about FPS/key

josephny

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I've read a bunch of threads and I just don't understand FPS, I-Frame and key.

I understand the frame rate (FPS) can be set at the camera as well as in BI (Cam properties -> Video -> Max. Rate), but I can't find where to set the i-frame.

Then I've read that I should set the i-frame so they key (which I think is the ration of FPS to i-frame) is 1.0 -- but I have no idea where to set the i-frame.

Then I read that the i-frame should be much much higher.

This all started for me because one of my cameras (371 Park lot) shows a totally gray, washed-out king of look upon playback.

Could someone please take a look at my status and advise how to improve performance?

Thank you!

1662973411650.png
 

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wittaj

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All of this is set in the camera itself, not in BI.

The part you see in BI regarding FPS (Cam properties -> Video -> Max. Rate) is only applicable to USB cameras. It is a leftover and the BI software will up this to 1FPS over what the camera is providing it for POE cameras. It is best not to touch this as it will impact your RAM.

The iframes rate is set in the camera. It is usually the same screen as the FPS. Now not all cameras allow this (looking at you Reolink).

Looking at your iframe rates all over the place, I am going to take a guess that you have Reolinks or some other cheap camera.

But without knowing the camera brand, we can't point you to where to look as some cameras call it something other than iframes.

Yours with a KEY of 0.17 means that if an object can be in and out of the field of view in under 6 seconds, BI could miss the motion altogether.

And you really should be using substreams!
 
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josephny

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All of this is set in the camera itself, not in BI.

The part you see in BI regarding FPS (Cam properties -> Video -> Max. Rate) is only applicable to USB cameras. It is a leftover and the BI software will up this to 1FPS over what the camera is providing it for POE cameras. It is best not to touch this as it will impact your RAM.

The iframes rate is set in the camera. It is usually the same screen as the FPS. Now not all cameras allow this (looking at you Reolink).

Looking at your iframe rates all over the place, I am going to take a guess that you have Reolinks or some other cheap camera.

But without knowing the camera brand, we can't point you to where to look as some cameras call it something other than iframes.

Yours with a KEY of 0.17 means that if an object can be in and out of the field of view in under 6 seconds, BI could miss the motion altogether.

And you really should be using substreams!
Wow! Thank you so much!

Everything in your post was new information (education) to me.

I have a mix of cameras, including:

ReoLink RLC-410-5mp
Reolink RLC-810A
SV3C (I think) MC500L-5mp
SV3C MC400k-500w

In addition to FPS and Resolution,
the Reolinks have a "Max bitrate" and an "Interframe space" setting;
the SV3Cs have a "Bitrate" and a "Frame Interval" setting.

Regarding the substreams: I used the INSPECT facility and leave whatever is found. The SV3C cameras are only populated with /stream0. I just tried /stream1 as the substream and it works.

Could you please advise on changing the bitrate/interframe/interval settings?

Thank you!
 

wittaj

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OK Reolinks are problematic with BI, so you are probably screwed there as they do not hold iframes. They call it Interframe Space and you should make that match FPS, but you will see that it won't hold to it. For the SV3C, it would be the frame interval that is the iframes, so match that to your FPS.

The find/inspect only uses the mainstream by default. You need to then go to the substream and select the substream from the dropdown and if it didn't populate it, then do as you did and copy the mainstream and change the 0 to a 1.

Blue Iris and Reolinks do not work well together, but the same principles applies for almost any low end consumer grade camera. It is just Reolinks is one of the more consumer end cameras people buy and come to this site as to why it is pointed out often about. I have a cheapo camera for overview purposes so it doesn't matter, but it exhibits this same behavior even though in the settings I can set an iframe...

This was a screenshot of a member here where they had set these cameras to 15FPS within the cameras (I suspect you will be missing motion that you do not know you are missing....):

1662983787611.png

Now look at they key - that is the iframes. Blue Iris works best when the FPS and the iframes match. Now this is a ratio, so it should be a 1 if it matches the FPS. The iframes not matching (that you cannot fix or change with a reolink) is why they miss motion in Blue Iris and why people have problems. This is mainly why people are having issues with these cameras and there are many threads showing the issues people have with this manufacturer and Blue Iris. It is these same games that make the camera look great as a still image or video but turn to crap once motion is introduced.

The Blue Iris developer has indicated that for best reliability, sub stream frame rate should be equal to the main stream frame rate and these cameras cannot do that and there is nothing you can do about that with these cameras... The iframe rates (something these cameras do not allow you to set) should equal the FPS, but at worse case be no more than double. This example shows the cameras going down to a keyrate of 0.25 means that the iframe rates are over 4 times the FPS and that is why motion detection is a disaster with these cameras and Blue Iris...A value of 0.5 or less is considered insufficient to trust for motion triggers reliably...try to do DeepStack and it will be useless...

Compounding the matter even worse...motion detection is based on the substream and look at the substream FPS - they dropped down to below 6 FPS with an iframe/key rate of 0.25 - you will miss motion most of the time with that issue...

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either.

Now compare above to mine and cameras that follow industry standards that allow you to actually set parameters and they don't manipulate them. You will see that my FPS match what I set in the camera, and the 1.00 key means the iframe matches:

1662983811891.png
 

josephny

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Again, all new information -- I am tremendously grateful.

I reconfigured all of the cameras that have the Frame Interval or Interframe Space settings to match the frame rate of the camera.

I also configured the sub stream where I could.

Pool (.76) is an RLC-410-5MP
I63 (.63) is an RLC-422W
I61 (.63) I don’t know what kind of camera, but it run HC400L_AF_V1 and uses a Webconfig browser plug-in and cloud type DANALE
I64 (.64) is an RLC-411WS
I75 (.75) is an IPCAM (type C8F0Soz3n0pcl2) – I set the frame interval, but it didn’t change the key
I70 (.70) I don’t know what kind of camera, but it runs MC500L_5MP – I set the frame interval, but it didn’t change the key

This is what it looks like now. I think it’s an improvement, but it sounds like I’d be wise to replace the Reolink cameras.

Is there an affordable alternative that works well with BI?

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wittaj

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Yeah some of the cheaper cameras allow you to input parameters, but the firmware is written to value bright images over anything, so it will override settings that people put in.

That is an improvement for sure, but if you see dark at night - like the lights are off in the building or you don't have a lot of light outside, then check and see what the camera is sending - it isn't uncommon for reolinks to reduce the iframes and FPS a lot at night.

If the reolinks are indoor cameras and always have light, then they are probably ok, but if it is night and no light and you need the infrared, then yeah, you should look to replace.

Depending on your budget, Amcrest are some decent budget cameras that work well with BI, but they are budget cameras on less than ideal MP/sensor ratios. But for indoor they work well.

If your budget allows, best to go with Dahua or Hikvision OEM - they are legit brand name cameras sold without logos, but you can flash the respective firmware on them. @EMPIRETECANDY is a trusted vendor here and has an Amazon store:


Of if you are buying more than one, DM him here and get a better price for quantity.
 
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sebastiantombs

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SV3C won't let you effectively set an iframe rate either, just like Reolink won't. You may have a setting for it, but the firmware will override that setting and do whatever it want to do which is why those cameras are not really very good at all.

If you want a more mid-range camera, $125-$135 range, have a look at these two. They are both 2MP cameras with the correct sensor size to provide good, useable, night motion video when properly configured. The major difference is that the 3241 has a built-in microphone and does some basic AI detection, people and vehicles.

2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

3241T-ZAS Review

Here's a link to a whole thread for less expensive cameras that may also fit you budget. I can't speak to any of them from personal experience though. I can tell you that the 2231 and 3241 are excellent choices.

Less expensive models -
 

josephny

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Thank you.

Quite a few are outside cameras and the higher resolution (greater detail) is very useful.

Could you recommend 8mp/4K cameras in the sub-$200 range?

Here's what it looks like:

1663015937161.png
 
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sebastiantombs

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I can't say I know of any truly good cameras in the 4K/8MP class that are less than $200. One of the major cost factors is the sensor which has to be significantly bigger to produce good, blur free, night motion video. That also effects the lens cost as well. Every camera needs light to "see" just as we do. Cameras can use IR, which we can't see, to enhance black and white video at night.

Here's the current crop of 4K/8MP that are decent performers but they are over $200 per camera -

Review - 8MP 1/1.2" sensor full color camera



Dual Sensor 4K
 

wittaj

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+1 above.

During the day, any camera can produce decent images, even 4K on a sensor made for 720P. At night is when we need it to work.


Looking at those images, it looks like you have all fixed lens, wide angle see a lot type cameras.

In particular is the top left corner. a 2.8mm camera will not get you IDENTIFY of anything happening in that park lot.

Take a look at this thread that calls out the focal lengths, along with camera recommendations that most of us would suggest to cover a particular area. In some instances, a 2MP is the better choice:

 

josephny

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+1 above.

During the day, any camera can produce decent images, even 4K on a sensor made for 720P. At night is when we need it to work.


Looking at those images, it looks like you have all fixed lens, wide angle see a lot type cameras.

In particular is the top left corner. a 2.8mm camera will not get you IDENTIFY of anything happening in that park lot.

Take a look at this thread that calls out the focal lengths, along with camera recommendations that most of us would suggest to cover a particular area. In some instances, a 2MP is the better choice:

Wowee!

What a fantastic explanation of MP vs. Focal Length.

So, ideally, (almost) every location would have 2 cameras (or maybe 3): wide to show as much as possible, and 1 or 2 optically zoomed for detail.

So why would someone spend the money on a budget 4k camera instead of a 4 or 5MP vari-focal?
 

wittaj

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Ideally, yes it is best to have a wide angle camera as an overview and then supplemented with varifocals for pinch points where someone would have to pass.

And then you can compliment it with an autotracking PTZ and use BI and the fixed cams as spotter cameras to tell the PTZ where to look and then start tracking. The biggest problem with PTZs are they are always looking the wrong way, but in conjunction with spotter cams, it is a great additional tool in the toolbox!




The reason you see people purchase 4K cameras are because the Rings and Arlos of the world have marketed and wrongfully educated the general consumer that more MP is better. So go into a Costco or Best Buy and every kit you will see is a 4K camera that is on the wrong MP/sensor ratio. And they buy it and just accept the poor quality at night. But the members here have shown that quality night captures are possible. Comes down to the proper focal length and MP/sensor ratio.

You would purchase a 4MP camera as there is no 5MP on the market with the proper MP/sensor ratio.

 

tmxv4128

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This video might give you a little insight as to how well certain cameras work at night. For some reason, the neighborhood I live in has lost dogs posted just about every day in local news feeds, so I check my cameras every morning to see if any of the animals wandered by my house. Though I am in a regular housing track, behind my backyard is a wooded area with lots of coyotes roaming at night. Not a safe place to let pets out. This morning I saw a recording of this cute little dog wandering down my driveway last night at 3:37AM. The first camera to pick him up on the unlit driveway was my T5442T-ZE with IR. Next, it handed off to my SD 49225XA-HNR PTZ camera, which followed him further down the driveway. Next, my Color 4K-X picked him up at the front of the house overlooking the street, which he crossed. Finally, I have an active deterrent camera N55DU82 mounted on my house that gives an overview of the street. Quite a difference in quality of the cameras, but having a variety really helps.
 

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I see this thread is from almost a year ago but i didn't want to start a new thread on the same topic. I have read through the information provided in this post and adjusted my Amcrest IP8M-TD2685EW-AI (worked fine) cameras to the appropriate settings. Surprisingly, even my Reolink POE Doorbell camera accepted the adjusted settings correctly BUT my Amcrest IP8M-2779EW-AI cameras won't accept the change and are still showing a .50key in BI. Is there anything I can do to get these cameras to act right?
 

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wittaj

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I see this thread is from almost a year ago but i didn't want to start a new thread on the same topic. I have read through the information provided in this post and adjusted my Amcrest IP8M-TD2685EW-AI (worked fine) cameras to the appropriate settings. Surprisingly, even my Reolink POE Doorbell camera accepted the adjusted settings correctly BUT my Amcrest IP8M-2779EW-AI cameras won't accept the change and are still showing a .50key in BI. Is there anything I can do to get these cameras to act right?
Make both main and sub H264. Probably not the problem, but having them different causes other problems.
 
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