Smart camera, smart NVR, or both?

csJosh

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Hi,
For IVS rule-based monitoring, if the camera supports IVS (e.g., 5442), is there any reason to get a smart NVR vs a dumb NVR?
I currently have a Dahua-based system I'm thinking of expanding. I've been using IVS rules on 5442 cameras and record with a Dahua NVR with no smarts. I figured since the camera is doing the IVS detection, there's no need to have the NVR also doing detection. Is that right? Or maybe having the NVR do detection is better for some reason?
Thanks,
Josh
 

wittaj

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Having the camera do the detection is always better.

In fact, the "capacity" of the NVR is reduced if you have the NVR doing the AI motion detection.
 

steve1225

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Hi,
For IVS rule-based monitoring, if the camera supports IVS (e.g., 5442), is there any reason to get a smart NVR vs a dumb NVR?
I currently have a Dahua-based system I'm thinking of expanding. I've been using IVS rules on 5442 cameras and record with a Dahua NVR with no smarts. I figured since the camera is doing the IVS detection, there's no need to have the NVR also doing detection. Is that right? Or maybe having the NVR do detection is better for some reason?
Thanks,
Josh
there is no need to do IVS twice.

what NVR you have?
Even old 4KS2 line can record AI events from AI cameras. Only need to be configured properly.

NVR with local AI capabilities can give you possibility to run two different AI modes in parallel (one on cam, one on NVr). Like IVS plus Face Detect / Video metadata / AcuPick (last one only with new 5442-s3).

ps. All actual NVRs from Dahua have some local AI capabilities. The only line which don’t have is very old 4KS2, which is from 2017 and is marked as Eol.
 

bigredfish

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Im running a dumb 5216-16P-4KS2 with all AI enabled cameras, no problem.

Having seen the bandwidth drop by enabling AI on the newer NVR's and seeing some other quirks, I'd have to have a pretty strong use case to go with a new EI series NVR
 

csJosh

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@bigredfish, so you saw a bandwidth drop using AI cameras and switching from a dumb to AI-enabled NVR?

I have the 4-channel NVR4104HS-4KS2. I monitor the event stream from the cameras directly. I want to add another channel or two, so am thinking of getting a second 4ch one, or a larger 8ch one.
 

bigredfish

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Not personally, just from user posts and the published specs
Here's the new EI - AI powered version of my 'old clunker"
NVR5216-16P-EI - Dahua International

Network Bandwidth AI disabled: 384 Mbps incoming, 384 Mbps recording and 384 Mbps outgoing
AI enabled: 200 Mbps incoming, 200 Mbps recording and 200 Mbps outgoing

The old reliable Pro series like I have are now EOL, might be able to pick one up on Amazon?
NVR5208/16-8P-4KS2E - Dahua International

The NVR4 "Lite" series may work for you. I had a 4116 for a long time with 10 cameras and it worked well.
Just decide 1 or 2 HDs and PoE or not if you're using an external switch
Lite Series - Dahua International

*The 4ch and 8ch have the same bandwidth so stay with the 4ch so you're not tempted to over tax it with 8 cameras. Thats not enough bandwidth for 8 cams
 

steve1225

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Not personally, just from user posts and the published specs
Here's the new EI - AI powered version of my 'old clunker"
NVR5216-16P-EI - Dahua International

Network BandwidthAI disabled: 384 Mbps incoming, 384 Mbps recording and 384 Mbps outgoing
AI enabled: 200 Mbps incoming, 200 Mbps recording and 200 Mbps outgoing
The old reliable Pro series like I have are now EOL, might be able to pick one up on Amazon?
This reduction of bandwidth is only when LOCAL AI processing is enabled. So when You have dumb camera and do AI SMD / IVS for it on NVR.

When AI is done only on cams and NVR is only receiving / storing AI events - NVR offers full bandwidth (and no limitations)...
 

steve1225

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I have the 4-channel NVR4104HS-4KS2. I monitor the event stream from the cameras directly. I want to add another channel or two, so am thinking of getting a second 4ch one, or a larger 8ch one.
So in this case You simply want to replace NVR with newer one, which have more channels (8 or 16).
The newer series like 4xxx-EI or 5xxx-EI have not only higher network bandwidth but also higher decoding capabilities - so You can display more channels at once on HDMI. Also they receive firmware updates.
 

bigredfish

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This reduction of bandwidth is only when LOCAL AI processing is enabled. So when You have dumb camera and do AI SMD / IVS for it on NVR.

When AI is done only on cams and NVR is only receiving / storing AI events - NVR offers full bandwidth (and no limitations)...
Correct
 

Iemand91

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The newer series like 4xxx-EI or 5xxx-EI have not only higher network bandwidth but also higher decoding capabilities - so You can display more channels at once on HDMI. Also they receive firmware updates.
My winning streak with Andy is pushing me into these "problems" as well. :p
I just won an IPC-T54IR-ZE and last time also an IPC-T54IR-ZE. Before that a 4MP Lite camera and my own 'old' 5231ZE.
My NVR4116HS-4KS2 has a decoding capability of 8 channels @ 1080p (30fps)
That probably/maybe equals to 4 channels @ 4MP. With 3 4MP camera's and 1 2MP, that's going to hit the limit I guess...

And have some hacked Yi camera's (and old 720p and a slightly newer 1080P version) that I used to have connected the the NVR as well, only for live view, not recording.
Those hacked Yi camera's were fiddly at best, and I haven't been able to connect them with the NVR again, but with all those Dahua camera's already connected, that's out of the window now...
 

steve1225

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My winning streak with Andy is pushing me into these "problems" as well. :p
I just won an IPC-T54IR-ZE and last time also an IPC-T54IR-ZE. Before that a 4MP Lite camera and my own 'old' 5231ZE.
My NVR4116HS-4KS2 has a decoding capability of 8 channels @ 1080p (30fps)
That probably/maybe equals to 4 channels @ 4MP. With 3 4MP camera's and 1 2MP, that's going to hit the limit I guess...
In most cases, Dahua NVR when hits decoding capability limit, displays last channels (that not fit in limit) from secondary streams (small resolution).

You can always help by decreasing FPS on cameras.. I live in Europe (25hz/FPS) so I can display 9@25fps (not 8@30 fps) 4MPs streams on NVR without a problem...
 

csJosh

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Thanks for the suggestion, @steve1225 . The NVR4208-EI looks like a decent candidate for replacement NVR at ~$200.
Also, my bandwidth demand on an NVR seems very low. At present, I'm seeing only 7 Mbps into my 4-channel NVR. That's with 4 x 4MP cameras (3x 5442's and 1x wizsense camera) .
I have them set to record at max resolution, 10 fps, h265, smart codec, quality 6 (best), VBR, max bit rate of 8192 (kb/s).
Even when it's windy I think bandwidth may double to 14mbps, but even then no where close to the 80 mbps limit of the lower-end NVRs. So maybe I can get away with a lower-end 8ch NVR.

Random note: H265 isn't widely supported. When I want to stream video from the NVR, I transcode it from H265->H264 via ffmpeg in hardware (on a lower-end Intel NUC).
 

steve1225

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Random note: H265 isn't widely supported. When I want to stream video from the NVR, I transcode it from H265->H264 via ffmpeg in hardware (on a lower-end Intel NUC).
you don’t want to use h265. Dahua promotes it and NVR/apps fully supports but there are big problems with video quality when used h265. H265 creates soft pulsing image for uniform images (grass, asphalt, walls etc). Problem is identical with Dahua and hik
 

bigredfish

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^^^^^
This and it doesn’t really save as much space as advertised. HD space is cheap.

Also most of us run CBR. VBR is slow to respond and again can create image quality issues depending on the scene
 

csJosh

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you don’t want to use h265. Dahua promotes it and NVR/apps fully supports but there are big problems with video quality when used h265. H265 creates soft pulsing image for uniform images (grass, asphalt, walls etc). Problem is identical with Dahua and hik
Yeah, I'd read on this forum cautioning against H265. But when I tried walking down my street, recording in H265+VBR vs H264+CBR, both recordings looked basically the same I think.
Is there something I could try doing in front of my camera while recording that would highlight the problem with H265? Like waving my hands around quickly or doing that in low light or something?
 

wittaj

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Everyone likes to try digital zooming. That is where you can see the differences.

Plus when/if you need to export out video for police or what not, H265 can be problematic for other viewers. Once you have to start reprocessing and converting, you lose resolution.

In addition, just because they offer H265 doesn't mean it can do it efficiently. Some cams are better than others.

This will explain H264 versus H265 a little better.

H265 in theory provides more storage as it compresses differently, but part of that compression means it macro blocks big areas of the image that it thinks isn't moving. That can be problematic for digital zooming with H265.

However, it also takes more processing power of the already small CPU in the camera and that can be problematic if someone is maxing out the camera in other areas like FPS and then it stutters.

Further some cameras can handle H265 better than others, even if the camera "claims" to support it.

In theory it is supposed to need 30% less storage than H264, but most of us have found it isn't that much. My savings were less than few minutes per day. And to my eye and others that I showed clips to and just said do you like video 1 or video 2 better, everyone thought the H264 provided a better image.

The left image is H264, so all the blocks are the same size corresponding to the resolution of the camera. H265 takes areas that it doesn't think has motion and makes them into bigger blocks and in doing so lessens the resolution in those larger blocks yet increases the camera CPU demand to develop these larger blocks.


1667974399793.png

In theory H265 is supposed to need half the bitrate because of the macroblocking. But if there is a lot of motion in the image, then it becomes a pixelated mess. The only way to get around that is a higher bitrate. But if you need to run the same bitrate for H265 as you do H264, then the storage savings is essentially zero.


In my testing I have one camera that sees a parked car in front of my house. H265 sees that the car isn't moving, so it macroblocks the whole car and surrounding area. Then the car owner walked up to the car and got in and the motion is missed because of the macroblock being so large. Or if it catches it, because the bitrate is low, it is a pixelated mess during the critical capture point and by the time H265 adjusts to there is now motion, the ideal capture is missed.

In my case, the car is clear and defined in H264, but is blurry and soft edges in H265.

Digital zooming is never really good and not something we recommend, but you stand a better chance of some digital zoom with H264 rather than a large macroblocked H265. I can digital zoom on my overview camera and kinda make out the address number of the house across the street with H264, but not a chance with H265 as it macroblocked his whole house.

H265 is one of those theory things that sounds good, but reality use is much different.

Some people have a field of view or goals that allow H265 to be sufficient for their needs.

As always, YMMV.
 

steve1225

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Yeah, I'd read on this forum cautioning against H265. But when I tried walking down my street, recording in H265+VBR vs H264+CBR, both recordings looked basically the same I think.
Is there something I could try doing in front of my camera while recording that would highlight the problem with H265? Like waving my hands around quickly or doing that in low light or something?
Look with digital zoom at textures of grass, trees, streets and walls - uniform areas of uniform color with small differences. Especially when someone will move - area around / after that tree/person/vehicle... Look for pulsing areas / textures - which get sharp every a few seconds and then lost the sharpness..

this is h.265 and how badly is implemented in Chineses SOC (processors) used in cameras.. uniform areas as compressed as big macro block (even 128x128) and it is losing sharpness/details.. in h.264 everything is compressed in small blocks (8x8 or 16x16)..
 

H. Swanson

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My NVR encoding options are as follows: H.265, H.264, H.264B and H.264H. Which one is best?
 
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