Should I consider anything other than Hikvision or Dahua?

[loglobal]

Should I be looking at brands other than Hikvision or Dahua? This will be for a 20+ camera Blue Iris system that will be replacing a relatively poor 16-camera analog Honeywell DVR system that is about five years old. I'm trying to keep the cost per camera to $100 or less, if not $75 or less. But at the same time, I almost want to try to get 4MP or 5MP cams and drop the frame rate so the images are of better quality.

 

[VorlonFrog]

In my opinion, yes. You should probably consider some of the Longse cameras reviewed here.

LRDC60S500 with IMX178 sensor: https://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php/6964-5-MegaGixel-1-1-8-quot-low-light-destroyer-for-90

[url]https://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php/12666-Just-Ordered-A-Longse-LBW90S500

https://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php/9362-69-motorized-varifocal-4x-(2-8mm-12mm)-Longse
[/URL]

 

[Kawboy12R]

Is this your home and do you check your cameras frequently? Is it someone else's business that you'll have to support, warranty and guarantee performance for? I think you know where I'm going with this. Gauge the consequences of failure accordingly. If it's your home and you truly do have a limited budget for cameras then use the money saved to put in enough cameras to cover everything properly, plus have a spare or two around to be able to quickly replace a few cheapos that may die. It's hard to complain about the quality and reliability offered in the Hik/Dahua $70 range though, particularly if you add external illuminators.

 

[bp2008]

Hikvision and Dahua are the safe bets, and the only brands I would recommend for a setup for someone else. But if it is for yourself, and you don't mind possibly trading some reliability for pure night-time performance, then you could easily justify throwing some Longse into the mix.

 

[FrankOceanXray]

I think you need better planning. Why isn't the current system working? What do you hope to better?

Home or business? Personal or client? What will monitor the system (NVR or PC)? You are installing? What type of cameras and specs do you need?

Your idea of running a high MP camera at a lower FPS is confusing and concerning. If you run too slow a FPS, you will risk simply not catching a thing! Granted it will be good IQ but it will be of no use! Just a desktop wallpaper.

 

[klasipca]

Yeah, for large setups I would have to agree Hikvision/Dahua would give you less hassle, but if you want to experiment a few cams from Longse/Huisun are very good options. However, whatever you decide steer clear from new budget Hikvision 5MP cams, stick with their 4MP/2MP.

 

[bp2008]

Your idea of running a high MP camera at a lower FPS is confusing and concerning. If you run too slow a FPS, you will risk simply not catching a thing! Granted it will be good IQ but it will be of no use! Just a desktop wallpaper.

You seem to be suggesting that high resolution cameras must be run at a high frame rate, which is absolutely not true. In fact, with Blue Iris, resolution and frame rate are two of the largest factors affecting CPU and memory usage. So lowering the frame rate is one of the best ways to keep the server running efficiently when you have high resolution cameras.

I think we can safely assume the OP is not an idiot, and would not stream such a low frame rate that it would produce worthless video. He just values image quality over motion fluidity, which makes him smarter than most I think.

 

[loglobal]

You seem to be suggesting that high resolution cameras must be run at a high frame rate, which is absolutely not true. In fact, with Blue Iris, resolution and frame rate are two of the largest factors affecting CPU and memory usage. So lowering the frame rate is one of the best ways to keep the server running efficiently when you have high resolution cameras.

I think we can safely assume the OP is not an idiot, and would not stream such a low frame rate that it would produce worthless video. He just values image quality over motion fluidity, which makes him smarter than most I think.

Yes, that is correct. My tests with BI yesterday show that 5 fps will be fine for most of the cameras. It appears as though 5 - 10 fps is the sweet spot for most things unless fast motion or narrow field of view is involved.

 

[loglobal]

I think you need better planning. Why isn't the current system working? What do you hope to better?

Home or business? Personal or client? What will monitor the system (NVR or PC)? You are installing? What type of cameras and specs do you need?

Your idea of running a high MP camera at a lower FPS is confusing and concerning. If you run too slow a FPS, you will risk simply not catching a thing! Granted it will be good IQ but it will be of no use! Just a desktop wallpaper.

We've been running 16 of these in a large commercial facility that we own. The system...is actually no longer in operation. Furthermore, the resolution was never good enough to make out much. If you read the original post, you will see what type of system the cameras will hook into.

 

[FrankOceanXray]

We've been running 16 of these in a large commercial facility that we own. The system...is actually no longer in operation. Furthermore, the resolution was never good enough to make out much. If you read the original post, you will see what type of system the cameras will hook into.

I appreciate the snarky reply. I did read the post. It is why I presented my response in the fashion seen. It is very possible that old system could still do the trick. You did not give a goal, only that you want 4 or 5MP cameras. And you only now just offer the system is defunct! Why even mention the system at all... it is dead! Given your final line, you are not looking for IP but you are looking to keep the analog system? You just want to replace the cameras and nothing else? And you still have 4MP+ in mind?

Again, what are your goals? Face recognition? Just motion detection? Inside? Outside? Bullets turrets, domes, PTZ, POE, analog? Watching cattle ? Remote view of dogs at home? Security?

 

[FrankOceanXray]

You seem to be suggesting that high resolution cameras must be run at a high frame rate, which is absolutely not true. In fact, with Blue Iris, resolution and frame rate are two of the largest factors affecting CPU and memory usage. So lowering the frame rate is one of the best ways to keep the server running efficiently when you have high resolution cameras.

I think we can safely assume the OP is not an idiot, and would not stream such a low frame rate that it would produce worthless video. He just values image quality over motion fluidity, which makes him smarter than most I think.

You are saying I am suggesting.. I am not. I was pretty clear. You are assuming a lot in fact without having an indication of what his needs are while speaking on his behalf. I did offer a warning to running a low FPS but w/o knowing his goals, etc no tailored advice can be given.

And safely assume OP is not an idiot?

 

[Ford]

Should I be looking at brands other than Hikvision or Dahua? This will be for a 20+ camera Blue Iris system that will be replacing a relatively poor 16-camera analog Honeywell DVR system that is about five years old. I'm trying to keep the cost per camera to $100 or less, if not $75 or less. But at the same time, I almost want to try to get 4MP or 5MP cams and drop the frame rate so the images are of better quality.

No

 

[loglobal]

I primarily need to find inexpensive cameras that will allow us to monitor the interior and exterior of our commercial facility. In the preexisting system, the eight interior cameras are cheap Swann N3960 units, and the exterior units, of which there are also eight, look similar.

The occasional monitoring during the day will be to ensure that employees are being productive. The main reason for a surveillance system at this facility is to pull footage from when a customer steals something from the customer-accessible warehouse area, which is 120' x 124', or if someone were to break in.

We are leaning towards higher resolution cameras (1080p is great, but if possible to go higher for at least some of them, that would be awesome) than what we had before, which was somewhere in the range of 380 - 480 lines vertically, depending on the camera. But I understand that it will be difficult or impossible to stream, say, 25 channels of 4MP at 30 fps into Blue Iris. From what I have read, there is no reason to really go above 15 fps, and from what I have tested out, there seems to be no reason to use more than 5 or 10 fps for most of the cameras.

Does that shed more light on the project? It doesn't have very strict requirements other than updating / replacing an old system that, as of this past summer, is no longer in operation. We can add / move cameras as our specific needs and goals are developed.

 

[FrankOceanXray]

I'll take that as an apology.

Did the old system satisfy your current needs? If not, then it will be tough to get much more with that DVR. To include @bp2008 back in the conversation.... 2MP (1080) is best you will get over BNC? Then your choices are limited. I did browse on your behalf and see a 2MP Dahua which was not IP but used BNC. I would think at this point, IP cameras are the best bet for performance, affordability and potential for growth/futureproofing.

If the system still works (maybe some cameras are still operable? or if the DVR at least is in working order?), to save money you could still use it buying the cheaper cameras to hook into it.. using those perhaps just for watching areas which do not need high IQ (like for your desire to watch over employee productivity, detecting a gaggle smoking and joking vs needing to read the name tape on their shirt).

And you are already running BI? So you have a computer? Specs on it? Have you considered an NVR to mate with the cameras instead?

You are correct about the FPS not needing to be high but some situations may need or benefit from a higher FPS. I am sure bp20008 would agree. It is always best to ask precise questions so the right answer may be given. Anything else is just guessing... and inefficient. You seem to be happy with low FPS.

To protect the area where customers have access to, is there a way to limit the access so there is less to watch over? Or make a choke point... get one good camera on a choke point at face level... are the items to be stolen small? or large enough you would notice if they removed an item from stock? If they are small enough, then obviously you would benefit from more cameras watching over the customer area.. is there a lower ceiling or is this really a warehouse with a 30+ ft roof (help decide if you wall mount some turrets/bullets or if you can do a ceiling mounted, wider angle lens perhaps, fisheye)?

Tinker with IPVM calculator to get an impression of how many pixels per foot you are looking to get out of it... that will get you started with lens, resolution and mounting possibilities.

 

[VorlonFrog]

The Longse cameras with the S500 designation are their highest-resolution (4 or 5 megapixel) models, and very reasonably priced around $90 each plus shipping and handling charges. Because this is a commercial facility, it might be wise to pay somewhat more for slightly lower-resolution Hikvision cameras (2 or 4 megapixel) where the support and reliability are known much, much better.

 

[loglobal]

I'll take that as an apology.

Did the old system satisfy your current needs? If not, then it will be tough to get much more with that DVR. To include @bp2008 back in the conversation.... 2MP (1080) is best you will get over BNC? Then your choices are limited. I did browse on your behalf and see a 2MP Dahua which was not IP but used BNC. I would think at this point, IP cameras are the best bet for performance, affordability and potential for growth/futureproofing.

If the system still works (maybe some cameras are still operable? or if the DVR at least is in working order?), to save money you could still use it buying the cheaper cameras to hook into it.. using those perhaps just for watching areas which do not need high IQ (like for your desire to watch over employee productivity, detecting a gaggle smoking and joking vs needing to read the name tape on their shirt).

And you are already running BI? So you have a computer? Specs on it? Have you considered an NVR to mate with the cameras instead?

You are correct about the FPS not needing to be high but some situations may need or benefit from a higher FPS. I am sure bp20008 would agree. It is always best to ask precise questions so the right answer may be given. Anything else is just guessing... and inefficient. You seem to be happy with low FPS.

To protect the area where customers have access to, is there a way to limit the access so there is less to watch over? Or make a choke point... get one good camera on a choke point at face level... are the items to be stolen small? or large enough you would notice if they removed an item from stock? If they are small enough, then obviously you would benefit from more cameras watching over the customer area.. is there a lower ceiling or is this really a warehouse with a 30+ ft roof (help decide if you wall mount some turrets/bullets or if you can do a ceiling mounted, wider angle lens perhaps, fisheye)?

Tinker with IPVM calculator to get an impression of how many pixels per foot you are looking to get out of it... that will get you started with lens, resolution and mounting possibilities.

The old system was of so low resolution that it was not practical to pull footage of theft. So it was largely useless aside from occasionally monitoring employees. For this reason, we need new cameras anyway. While we have BNC cabling already in place, we need more than 16 cameras. Again, at this point I am intending on using Blue Iris because we have three preexisting installations in childcare centers, which work GREAT.

I am currently testing Blue Iris on an old Lenovo M90p with an i5-650 and 8GB RAM. I am pulling in ten public feeds from the internet for testing purposes, including a couple that are of 5MP resolution. It works great. The system I intend to buy is a new Dell Optiplex 3040 or 5040 with the new i7-6700 Skylake processor and 16GB RAM. I will install an 8TB WD Purple for footage storage. If we went NVR, cost would be the same (two 16-channel units) and would have less flexibility.

The customer area is already limited in access, so that is taken care of. But I like the idea of a choke point, that will be EASY because we have a hallway the customers must walk through. Just in, or out too? The ceiling is probably 20 feet for the customer area.

 

[Kawboy12R]

Cover all choke points. If you can control distance, angle, and lighting then you can pick a camera and lens to give you the money shot you want. That gives you more room for "error" (imperfect face shots) due to distance and angle in your other cameras. You can then tie WHAT they did with the overview cams and identify WHO they are with the closeup face shots from your choke point cams. Bubble domes are probably a good choice for face height-ish or a little below mounting choices where the public can possibly touch the cameras, or mount a 6 to 12mm bullet up higher and farther away while still maintaining a shallow angle at faces. Take hoodies and ball caps and people looking down into consideration.

At my business, I have an eyeball dome ("turret" with circle of LEDs around a flat piece of glass like a bullet) below face height just above the cash in the corner at the corner mounted cash register. Anybody touching the cash has a camera three feet from their face looking up under caps and hoodies. Similar thing for customers on the other side of the counter, only they're staring slightly down into 2 megapixels from 6-8 feet away. FOV with a 3.6mm lens catches the drawer when open and is wide enough to view almost all of the 90 degrees for both customer and employee entrances and faces of even tall people at the nearest door. The view beats the hell out of any bank or convenience store footage I've ever seen released when they're looking for a robber and trying to identify them at a distance through a hood and mask of some kind.

For cameras, it's like real estate and suicide bombing- location location location. https://youtu.be/tXE4NifbWrc?t=422

 

[Q™]

Cover all choke points. If you can control distance, angle, and lighting then you can pick a camera and lens to give you the money shot you want. That gives you more room for "error" (imperfect face shots) due to distance and angle in your other cameras. You can then tie WHAT they did with the overview cams and identify WHO they are with the closeup face shots from your choke point cams...

So, yeah, IMO this is really very wise advice. It seems that the #1 mistake that we rookies make is to mount our 2.8mm cameras up high which provides a great wide overview of the actions which transpire in the field of view...but provide ZERO possibility of face recognition; this is what I did. So now I have to climb up the fuQin' ladder and move and rewire a dozen fuQin' cameras...or do what Mr. @Kawboy12R suggests and leave 'em up ('cause the do serve their purpose well) and install additional "Face Recognition" cameras at the proper height at key choke points.

 

[FrankOceanXray]

Now we are getting somewhere.

If the old camera system is not totally kaput, put it to use somewhere .. even if they dont work, maybe having a few dummy cameras won't hurt.


Good luck.

 

[Kawboy12R]

@Q2U depending on the size of the area it can be a huge task to get even half decent ID level coverage almost everywhere. IMHO, it's often more realistic to get decent overview coverage everywhere and focus on great ID pictures in a few key areas, particularly at natural choke points.