Save on POE switch

[user8963]

@Teken

this is not with all devices... some works great like S2500 ... also you can mod it with new fans to get it silent...

if someone search for it, i think he knows what he is buying...

the licence shit is only on some brands... juniper for example..

you are 100% right, you will not find any firmware updates for any HP (and many other) ENTERPRISE devices online.. you need an account and have the device registered WITH support contract...
but...
there is always a guy on reddit who works in a datacenter and can get any HPE firmware...

some of them have redundant power supplies... so it depends on your needs. you cannot compare any 400USD netgear/ubiquiti poe switch with these 70-100 USD switches.. but poe switches tends to be loud , no matter if consumer or enterprise.

48ports with POE+ ... 30*48 = 1440W only for ports... so you need a quite heavy power supply (or 2)... more noise, more heat

the sfp modul incompatibliity is a thing to deal with... so you have to do your homework before buying.

also most of them needs to be configured via commandline... some dont have all functions via webinterface.

 

[Teken]

@Teken

this is not with all devices... some works great like S2500 ... also you can mod it with new fans to get it silent...

if someone search for it, i think he knows what he is buying...

the licence shit is only on some brands... juniper for example..

you are 100% right, you will not find any firmware updates for any HP (and many other) ENTERPRISE devices online.. you need an account and have the device registered WITH support contract...
but...
there is always a guy on reddit who works in a datacenter and can get any HPE firmware...

some of them have redundant power supplies... so it depends on your needs. you cannot compare any 400USD netgear/ubiquiti poe switch with these 70-100 USD switches.. but poe switches tends to be loud , no matter if consumer or enterprise

As I stated it’s about doing their research and asking questions before a purchase. I called out the most basic things to consider because not everyone is aware such restrictions and limitations exist. As it pertains to installing a quieter fan that’s something people need to be really careful in doing so!

The vast majority of so called quiet fans simply spin a lot slower. Slower means less air flow - less air flow means build up of heat. Which translates to something burning up.

Enterprise switches don’t have jet plane fans just for fun. They are used because these switches generate a massive amount of heat that must be dissipated through forced air flow.

So people need to be really careful before swapping out the OEM fans.

 

[user8963]

Enterprise switches don’t have jet plane fans just for fun

i didn't intend to offend you, you are 100% right with what you saying...

its not only this... most of them have C15(A)/C16(A) connector... for a good reason ! this and battery systems are the cause of fire in most cases




but he wanted it cheap...

 

[tigerwillow1]

I’ll add if someone is considering a used enterprise switch be prepared for jet plane, huge energy consumption, and long term costs.

I agree about the jet plane part, but disagree about the energy consumption and costs, Using my own Cisco sf300-24P switch, with 24 POE ports, as an example, I bought it off ebay 5 years ago for $80 and have spent nothing on it other than replacing the jet engines fans. It has worked flawlessly 24x7 the whole 5 years. The enterprise switches went green many years ago. The spec for mine is 26 watts at maximum throughput, not including any POE draw. About one watt per port, which is about what the new manufacture spec sheets say. You do have to find the specs for a model you're interested in to make sure it's not a pre-green clunker.

I was able to find quieter fans with about the same CFM rating, and cut out the case grillwork at the fan intake. Definitely helped, but if fan noise is a factor, best to go with a fanless switch. They tend to have 4 to 8 ports and use external power bricks until getting into the big bucks models.

 

[user8963]

not a pre-green clunker.

You mean something like this

• Maximum Power 112 watts (without PoE Load)
• Thermal Rating 383 BTU/hr

this is my avaya 4850gts-pwr+

 

[Phe0nix]

Take a basic 16 port switch and add POE+ and they add $150 -$200 to the price tag .
An IP camera can be powered by POE or 12V DC adapter, 12V DC is 12V DC. That why I was considering running Cat6 & 18 AWG wire with the correct male pigtail.
Every channel is protected by a fuse to protect your camera from power surges. The main reason is to dodge the inflated prices on POE switches. I’m still hunting for a quality POE+ unmanaged switch. Everyone is different, I simply don’t want to throw generic hardware in with my quality cameras and PC and potentially miss an event due to a hardware failure which the the whole point of putting up cameras to begin with.

 

[Teken]

i didn't intend to offend you, you are 100% right with what you saying...

its not only this... most of them have C15(A)/C16(A) connector... for a good reason ! this and battery systems are the cause of fire in most cases




but he wanted it cheap...

I don’t get offended by people offering different opinion or views from mine. My only intent on any forum is to learn and share that knowledge to others if and when I can.

I’ve been involved in lots of industries and have years of experience in the same.

It’s important to add on to a discussion with relevant facts so others can learn and hopefully avoid the same mistakes all of us have made in the past.

 

[Teken]

Take a basic 16 port switch and add POE+ and they add $150 -$200 to the price tag .
An IP camera can be powered by POE or 12V DC adapter, 12V DC is 12V DC. That why I was considering running Cat6 & 18 AWG wire with the correct male pigtail.
Every channel is protected by a fuse to protect your camera from power surges. The main reason is to dodge the inflated prices on POE switches. I’m still hunting for a quality POE+ unmanaged switch. Everyone is different, I simply don’t want to throw generic hardware in with my quality cameras and PC and potentially miss an event due to a hardware failure which the the whole point of putting up cameras to begin with.


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You’re mistaking a fuse as it pertains to wire protection vs a SPD / TVSS which either shunts voltage to earth ground, absorbs it / opens, or a combination of both.

A standard fuse does not provide surge protection as it relates lightning or similar transients.

The fastest (quick blow) fuse can’t and doesn’t react as fast as a properly designed and equipped SPD / TVSS which uses anything from avalanche diodes, MOV’s, GDA, RLC network with chokes etc.

Many of the latest generation of switches have built in surge protection that exceed 4kVa. Again that’s not from a simple in line fuse or breaker.

 

[Phe0nix]

You’re mistaking a fuse as it pertains to wire protection vs a SPD / TVSS which either shunts voltage to earth ground, absorbs it / opens, or a combination of both.

A standard fuse does not provide surge protection as it relates lightning or similar transients.

The fastest (quick blow) fuse can’t and doesn’t react as fast as a properly designed and equipped SPD / TVSS which uses anything from avalanche diodes, MOV’s, GDA, RLC network with chokes etc.

Many of the latest generation of switches have built in surge protection that exceed 4kVa. Again that’s not from a simple in line fuse or breaker.

I took that from the product description.

 

[Teken]

I took that from the product description.

This is why you’re here to learn companies will indicate anything in the literature to sound impressive or offer a false sense of performance / protection. This is why buying a name brand switch or any other electronics that is properly tested and certified by a third party costs more.

When you buy name brand hardware it’s gone through vigorous testing to meet a specific performance, safety, and reliability. You won’t and can’t expect the same from a 3rd tier $29.99 blue light special.

 

[Phe0nix]

This is why you’re here to learn companies will indicate anything in the literature to sound impressive or offer a false sense of performance / protection. This is why buying a name brand switch or any other electronics that is properly tested and certified by a third party costs more.

When you buy name brand hardware it’s gone through vigorous testing to meet a specific performance, safety, and reliability. You won’t and can’t expect the same from a 3rd tier $29.99 blue light special.

I completely agree with you. There were some praising cheap hardware and that’s not the route I wanted to take.

 

[biggen]

Unless you have plans to run a large speed dome, I think PoE+ isn’t a necessity and is money better spent elsewhere.

 

[Phe0nix]

Unless you have plans to run a large speed dome, I think PoE+ isn’t a necessity and is money better spent elsewhere.

Adding the additional wattage would be a small fraction of the total cost and gives me flexibility

 

[biggen]

Adding the additional wattage would be a small fraction of the total cost and gives me flexibility

When you said:

Take a basic 16 port switch and add POE+ and they add $150 -$200 to the price tag .
An IP camera can be powered by POE or 12V DC adapter, 12V DC is 12V DC. That why I was considering running Cat6 & 18 AWG wire with the correct male pigtail.

I just assumed you didn't want to spend the money.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Just a random thought, but I use 16 gauge, two conductor, to power auxiliary IR illuminators to insure I get 12 volts under load. Then again I tend to over do things. All my cameras are PoE just for the simplicity of wiring. As it is I've got a 2-1/2" bundle coming out of the wall already.

 

[Teken]

Just a random thought, but I use 16 gauge, two conductor, to power auxiliary IR illuminators to insure I get 12 volts under load. Then again I tend to over do things. All my cameras are PoE just for the simplicity of wiring. As it is I've got a 2-1/2" bundle coming out of he wall already.

As we get older lots of folks have learned to ask, plan, revise, ask again, replan, than commit. Over doing it comes from experience, failing, learning from those mistakes and now planning ahead.

It’s more common to see people take short cuts or save money in key areas where they shouldn’t. Anyone who has spent anytime in IT knows more finances are put toward furniture and PR / Sales than computer systems and networks infrastructure.

One generates revenue vs the other is a endless cost side which isn’t sexy or wanted to be seen.

Quite a number of years ago one of the companies I helped manage started to lose out on major infrastructure bids. The folks in charge were all top shelf professionals in every field. They couldn’t understand how come solid and honest bids were being turned down?!?

Leadership brought me in to review all the current bids and those still pending. To me it was apparent as to why vs they couldn’t understand and not because they were over charging or trying to pull a fast one.

What these people failed to see and adapt to is a new generation of cheap asses. Nobody wanted future expansion, redundancies, above code install.

They wanted the lowest bid . . .

So no 22-4, 18-2 / 16-4 wiring running in parallel. No certification of each run with a print out. It didn’t matter if the cable had foot markings or any markings to prove it was certified cable.

So long as the box said X - Good enough!

Many here have read my thoughts and rants about using Ethernet cable for multi devices or high current ones. 22-4 and other larger diameter cable exits for a reason because it serves a purpose to meet a level of performance while reducing voltage drop and impact on the hardware.

So no, running 16-2 isn’t over board it’s just solid planning with no worries about tomorrow!

 

[Holbs]

to make matters even more complicated... managed vs unmanaged POE switch? Dual NIC Blue Iris machine? All answers can be found via search or the Wiki here. I started off with a dumb unmanaged switch off a 2nd NIC port from my Blue Iris machine. Only snagged a Ubiquiti 48 POE managed switch by dump cheap luck else I would still be using unmanaged switches off the 2nd NIC port.

 

[wittaj]

I completely agree with you. There were some praising cheap hardware and that’s not the route I wanted to take.

We were praising cheap hardware because it would be better than the route you were intending...unless you spend big bucks, a $30 POE switch will provide the same lack of protection as those fuses in that $50 wiring box you were looking at. If that was a good route, someone here would have gone that route...

But yes, if you want to buy higher grade equipment, absolutely do so, but your posts had given the impression you were looking to cheap out on a solution...so we gave you better cheap options than you were looking at...

 

[looney2ns]

The last place you want to cheap out is with a Poe switch.... unless you enjoy heartburn amidst trouble shooting. Same goes for that cheap 12v power supply. It could be disaster. If you want to go that route buy an Altronix brand power supply instead of that Noname box. You get what pay for.
Buy once cry once.

 

[tigerwillow1]

If you intuitively think running a nice thick wire with a 12 volt supply means less losses than with POE, the numbers say otherwise. (Assumes I crunched the numbers correctly, which I sometimes don't, so corrections don't offend me).

Using a round-number 500 foot wire run, or 1000' total for the plus and minus conductors, 16 AWG wire run will have resistance of 4.016 ohms. 23 AWG cat6 resistance is 20.8 ohms, but since each side of the power is carried on 2 conductors, the resistance is actually 10.4 ohms for the wire run. Using a 12 volt load of 1 amp, the 16 gauge line will lose 4.016 volts. For the same power using POE, the current will be 0.25 amps for a loss of 2.6 volts. Power loss in the 16 AWG line is 4.016 watts. In the POE line it's 0.65 watts. Big difference!

I'm so surprised by the difference that it feels like a mistake, but I keep coming up with the same result. Same reason the power companies use zillion volt transmission lines. If the cable from the power source to the camera is fairly short, none of this matters much.