PoE Camera Camera Switch

kedens

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Has anyone connected a PoE camera switch up link port to the Ethernet port of a router set up as a signal extender. If you have, what were your results? A diagram of what I have in mind is attached.

PoE_Diagram.png
 

Teken

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This is done everyday where running a hardline is near impossible or cost prohibitive. To be more specific the use of a a PtP wireless network is used.

You’ll never see any serious enterprise / commercial install use a router, range extender, consumer mesh system to extend a network link though.
 

sebastiantombs

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That will give you headaches. WiFi is not really an appropriate medium for video streams like surveillance video. Surveillance video is constant, nonstop , full load. Streaming a movie from NetFlix or Amazon allows for buffering, downloading a chunk, halting download until that chunk is almost totally played, then down loading the next chunk. Surveillance video never, ever stops sending data. The result is an overloaded WiFi channel which only gets worse as the amount of retries, sending the same packet again, increase due to the congestion until it all crashes and resets itself only to repeat again.

On top of that you're talking about two, basically, consumer grade routers. Normally the backplane is not robust enough to handle a really large, continuous, stream of data which is yet another choke point. You don't mention how many cameras would be remote and that is also a consideration.

Personally, I'd use a wireless bridge which is a dedicated, encrypted, wireless link with lots of bandwidth. I have three camera on a wireless bridge, 2-2MP and 1-4MP, running for a couple of years on a Ubiquity Nano Loco M5 bridge. It will easily handle eight or ten cameras and the only down time has been during power outages because there's not a UPS for it out in the shed end.

Ubiquity Nano Station Loco M5

TP Link Bridge
 
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The Automation Guy

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I am currently doing it.

I actually recently installed a 2mp PTZ camera at my parent's house and have temporarily hooked it up using a POE switch and an old router running Merlin firmware. It connects to their wifi network which is actually made up of several TP-Link EAP225 APs. I then send the stream via a full time VPN connection to my house where I have the camera included in my BI setup. Their internet upload speed is only like 20Mbps however.

It works, but the stream is not 100% at my end - it tends to stutter and skip. I suspect it is related more to the internet connection speed than the wireless bridge however. I have installed a large SD card in the camera that records everything and I simply use the BI feed just as a live feed. I do not try to record anything in BI because the connection is not stable enough.

I eventually want to hardwire this camera, but it is going to be a pain to do. I have not been back to their house since I set the camera up and I really only had time to get it working when I installed it. This just means that I haven't really had time to play around with it and see how stable the wireless bridge is. However I didn't have much (if any) stuttering when I was setting up the camera through the internet GUI at their house. If I find that it isn't 100% reliable, I could replace it with an outdoor TP-Link access point that would tie into the TP-Link wifi mesh network. I think that would be more reliable than the wireless bridge (although they are accomplishing the same thing).

So long story short is that it is possible, but the jury is out in my particular situation as to whether it works reliably or not. I feel that the wireless bridge is fine for my one 2mp camera, but the internet upload speed is not.
 

sebastiantombs

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Feeding surveillance video, full load surveillance video, through a router is a recipe for exactly what your are experiencing. WiFi is not really appropriate for video surveillance video feeds because that data is constant, never ending and non-buffering. When you watch a movie on WiFI the data gets buffered, a chunk of the movie is downloaded, download stops and resumes at a predetermined point. Video surveillance video never stops. That results in channel overload and retries to send data. The retries fail and get retried yet again and again until there's total failure to reset. The whole process then starts over again. On top of that consumer grade routers aren't actually made to handle that kind of continuous load either which makes it even worse.

IMHO you'd be better off setting up BI at the remote end, then remote into that for admin purposes and it could be added to your local BI setup as well.
 

kedens

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Has anyone connected a PoE camera switch up link port to the Ethernet port of a router set up as a signal extender. If you have, what were your results? A diagram of what I have in mind is attached.

View attachment 124692
I would like to thank everyone for their comments and recommendations. I would like to acknowledge that I meant to say “bridge” instead of range extender. I also realize that I did not provide enough information to present a clear understanding what I want to do. I am located in a rural area and have three primary areas I would like to have cameras located in. Area 1 includes my house, storm shelter, storage shed and surrounding property. Area 2 includes my livestock barn, tractor barn and surrounding property. Area 3 includes my shop, carport, trailer and surrounding property. Each area is approximately 200-250 yards apart. I am currently running 14 Wi-Fi cameras with an outdoor AP but want to transition to PoE cameras to eliminate the need for electrical power at each camera as well as increase the total number of cameras. I have included an updated diagram. Any additional comments and recommendations will be appreciated.
NetworkDiag.png
 

sebastiantombs

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Once again, WiFi is not made for the continuous streams of video that surveillance cameras produce. You may get by with two, or maybe three, then everything will fall apart due to channel overload. You're showing 10 cameras connect with WIFi. The dropout rate on those cameras will be so bad they will be unusable for surveillance, especially if they're all on the same channel.

To add to that, you'll be running all the cameras through your WiFi router which will also choke due to the heavy demand of surveillance video. You'll have a total of 22 cameras, total bit rate unknown, running through your WiFi router, and 18 of them on WIFi connections which won't work well, to get to the Blue Iris machine. I really don't think that will work out well at all.
 

kedens

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Once again, WiFi is not made for the continuous streams of video that surveillance cameras produce. You may get by with two, or maybe three, then everything will fall apart due to channel overload. You're showing 10 cameras connect with WIFi. The dropout rate on those cameras will be so bad they will be unusable for surveillance, especially if they're all on the same channel.

To add to that, you'll be running all the cameras through your WiFi router which will also choke due to the heavy demand of surveillance video. You'll have a total of 22 cameras, total bit rate unknown, running through your WiFi router, and 18 of them on WIFi connections which won't work well, to get to the Blue Iris machine. I really don't think that will work out well at all.
I do have intermittent problems during the day with the existing wireless cameras which I assume are atmospheric related. The diagram mistakenly shows 10 wireless cameras instead of 14 cameras I currently have in use. My overall goal is to replace all existing wireless cameras with PoE cameras. This would be a transition from WiFi to all PoE over time starting with Area 1 (House) shown in the diagram. Once completed Area 1 would consist of 12-14 PoE cameras connected via the PoE Switch/Ethernet Hub located inside storm shelter that is connected via Ethernet cable to the main wireless router located inside the house. Area 2 (Barn) and Area 3 (Shop) would each have 4 PoE cameras that would transmit their signals via a PoE Switch/Outdoor Bridge to the outdoor AP located atop a 20-foot mast in Area 1. This would reduce the number of wireless camera signals to a total of 8 cameras via two separate bridges of 4 cameras each. I have updated the diagram to show the planned configuration without existing wireless cameras in the mix. Hope this paints a clearer picture of what I am trying to achieve to eliminate the need to dig 3-foot trenches (freeze line here) and bury Cat-5 cable.
PoE_Diagram-2.png
 

TonyR

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In response to post #7:

Not to pile on, but the"Outdoor AP on 20 ft. mast", if set up for optimum performance, cannot work with the 10 "WiFi Cameras" because:
Now that 2 "Outdoor Bridges" will connect with the "Outdoor AP", we're talking PtMP" mode, such as ==>> airMAX - Configure a Point-to-Multipoint (PtMP) ISP-Style Access Point

That being said then even if you don't use Ubiquiti brand, most decent, well-designed radios that operate as AP-Bridge-TO-Station-Bridge will use proprietary protocol such as "AirMax" and WDS and a channel width that is NOT compatible with standard Wi-Fi devices...those cameras won't work with it. This protocol is required to provide the most reliable, highest bandwidth connection between the 2 radios. TP-LINK outdoor long range wireless devices use a similar technology, called "Pharos".

Also, not sure the role of the "8 port hub" is in the storm shelter. FWIW, hubs are obsolete and where needed, a "switch" can and should take its place.
 

kedens

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In response to post #7:

Not to pile on, but the"Outdoor AP on 20 ft. mast", if set up for optimum performance, cannot work with the 10 "WiFi Cameras" because:
Now that 2 "Outdoor Bridges" will connect with the "Outdoor AP", we're talking PtMP" mode, such as ==>> airMAX - Configure a Point-to-Multipoint (PtMP) ISP-Style Access Point

That being said then even if you don't use Ubiquiti brand, most decent, well-designed radios that operate as AP-Bridge-TO-Station-Bridge will use proprietary protocol such as "AirMax" and WDS and a channel width that is NOT compatible with standard Wi-Fi devices...those cameras won't work with it. This protocol is required to provide the most reliable, highest bandwidth connection between the 2 radios. TP-LINK outdoor long range wireless devices use a similar technology, called "Pharos".

Also, not sure the role of the "8 port hub" is in the storm shelter. FWIW, hubs are obsolete and where needed, a "switch" can and should take its place.
Sounds like I will be digging trenches and burying cat-5. Hub is for laptop to view cameras while in shelter. Can eliminate hub when I get 16 port PoE switch. My current PoE switch does not have enough ports to attach laptop.
 

kedens

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Sounds like I will be digging trenches and burying cat-5. Hub is for laptop to view cameras while in shelter. Can eliminate hub when I get 16 port PoE switch. My current PoE switch does not have enough ports to attach laptop.
What if I use repeaters instead of bridges and connect the PoE switch up-link to the repeater cat-5 port?
 

sebastiantombs

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You need to use dedicated wireless RF links and not "repeaters". I provided links to two different models. They are not WIFI access points or WiFi repeaters. They are a wide bandwidth dedicated RF channel which is totally different. No need to dig trenches for anything that way. If you have power for a PoE switch you have power for a dedicated RF link as well.

Again, running all the video through a wireless router will not work out well. The PC running Blue Iris needs to connect directly to the switch where all the camera feeds are aggregated, no the router. The router will not handle the load of all those cameras.
 

TonyR

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+1^^.
Not sure how lightning is is MO but running metallic cable between 2 or more outdoor buildings is an invitation to damage and problems. I would avoid in AL, GA, FL, TN, MS and more.

Also, the advantages offered, in spite of additional expense, by quality, made-for-purpose Ubiquiti or TP-LINK radios to operate as a PtMP or Layer 2 transparent bridge (as linked and described) will far outweigh the time and trouble for trenching and installing CAT-5 in your needed places, IMO.
 

kedens

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+1^^.
Not sure how lightning is is MO but running metallic cable between 2 or more outdoor buildings is an invitation to damage and problems. I would avoid in AL, GA, FL, TN, MS and more.

Also, the advantages offered, in spite of additional expense, by quality, made-for-purpose Ubiquiti or TP-LINK radios to operate as a PtMP or Layer 2 transparent bridge (as linked and described) will far outweigh the time and trouble for trenching and installing CAT-5 in your needed places, IMO.
I looked at the references provided and searched the radios. I also did a search on “TP-Link Point-to-Multipoint (PtMP)” and a TP-Link CPE210 came up in the listing. I happen to have one of these that I have never used. I could set it up as an experiment and connect 8-10 cameras (via Cat-5) using a switch connected to the CPE210 to see how it works. Do you think this would be a worthwhile test/practice?

Another option I have for the barn and shop areas is to use a couple of older laptops I have with 8GB memory. Both would be running Blue Iris and 4 PoE cameras. I could setup an AP/bridge at each location to communicate wireless to the house and monitor each computer’s cameras using UI3 and when necessary access the Laptops remotely. I currently have most of the equipment on hand and all of my current Wi-Fi cameras have the option to use Cat-5. The downside is that I would need to purchase 2 additional Blue Iris licenses plus obtaining updates for the laptops may be difficult because my primary PC and Camera LAN is not connected to the internet. When I do updates I disconnect the camera network and connect to my ISP for software updates. Overall this may be the most simplistic, effective and economical way to go. Your thoughts are appreciated.
 

TonyR

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Your experiment using your CPE210 won't be very revealing unless you use TWO, one at each end, of the bridge to operate as the Layer 2 Transparent bridge. When done properly, it operates as it were a CAT-5 cable regarding data, only the voltage for POE is not available.

I would not consider using the laptops and buying/installing Blue Iris, as they don't perform well together mainly due to hardware design and restrictions to keep temps down and improve battery life.

Your money would be better spent IMO, setting up the bridges as depicted in the links and depending on the topology that suits, either PtMP or PtP. If it were me, I would use all 5GHz devices for the bridges as long as you have good LOS (Line Of Sight) between the proposed radio locations. Although I have used some TP-LINK AP's for restaurants and offices, I can only speak to using Ubiquiti NS5 Locos, NS2 Locos, NS Loco 5 AC's and NS2M's as bridges and have had stellar results.
 
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kedens

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Your experiment using your CPE210 won't be very revealing unless you use TWO, one at each end, of the bridge to operate as the Layer 2 Transparent bridge. When done properly, it operates as it were a CAT-5 cable regarding data, only the voltage for POE is not available.

I would not consider using the laptops and buying/installing Blue Iris, as they don't perform well together mainly due to hardware design and restrictions to keep temps down and improve battery life.

Your money would be better spent. IMO, setting up the bridges as depicted in the links and depending on the topology that suits, either PtMP or PtP. If it were me, I would use all 5GHz devices for the bridges as long as you have good LOS (Line Of Sight) between the proposed radio locations. Although I have used some TP-LINK AP's for restaurants and offices, I can only speak to using Ubiquiti NS5 Locos, NS2 Locos, NS Loco 5 AC's and NS2M's as bridges and have had stellar results.
Thanks for all the assistance. I will get a second CPE210 for test/practice purposes since they are reasonably priced. There are trees on the property but line of sight between locations is pretty good. VHF radios work well between house, shop and barn. If successful with the CPE210's I will purchase the Ubiquiti equipment for long term operation. I'll update as I proceed. Again, thanks for all the help.
 
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