NVR PoE vs non PoE?

[amrogers3]

Hello, the Cliff Notes say a PoE NVR is a simple plug-n-play setup, but is also less flexible and harder to work with than a non-PoE NVR.

Not sure how old or current that statement is but are the newer NVRs with PoE capability harder to work and less flexible than non-PoE? My cable run is probably 75' at the most.

• going to use the IPC-Color4K-X cameras
• Trying to purchase an NVR that is flexible and that I can use for many years.
• Need about 16 ports but should probably go with 24+ just in case
• I am trying to wire 3 TVs to the NVR via HDMI but the Pro series has at most, 2 HDMI connections, maybe output to the 3rd TV with VGA

Is the AI the same across the Pro series NVRs?

Looks like this one, the non-PoE version, NVR5416-4KS2, is comparable to the one Andy recommends, NVR5424-24P-4KS2.

NVR5416-4KS2 + Netgear FS726TP? Looks like the IPC-Color4K-X requires 9.4W and the FS726TP can supply 15.4W. Or should I go with a Dahua PoE switch?

 

[user8963]

Pro poe switch:

• if you have water leak through cable, it only destroys your switch (no footage lost)
• if you need streams for other applications, you dont have to deal with virtualhost of nvr
• if you plan to use blueiris in future, you just can swap the nvr to a pc
• you already have a poe switch, so you can add wifi APs (or other poe devices) easy (if you need them)
• if power supply dies of nvr everything dies. you cannot even access your cameras from your router for just watch.
• -> new poe switch is easy available. if andy is not available anymore, you have to pay alot for a new nvr ... if you need the nvr fast because you dont want to stay without footage, you maybe have to pay even more if you buy it from authorized seller in the US.

Con poe switch:

• another device in your rack(...) (space)
• a bit more expensive (poe switches are around 200-300usd, nvr is mostly only +100usd)
• more headache for a beginner (have to deal with basic network stuff)
• more headache when it comes to security ... if you connect the poe switch to a router, its less secure if you do not use vlans.

neutral:
- no matter what you choose, the nvr is always limited by channel numbers. so if you buy a 16channel poe nvr, you can also add 16cams. if you buy a 32channel, you NEED another switch because the 32chan versions have only 16ports

 

[user8963]

I am trying to wire 3 TVs to the NVR via HDMI but the Pro series has at most, 2 HDMI connections, maybe output to the 3rd TV with VGA

This is bullshit. If you want to connect 3TVs to the NVR ,

a 1 to multi HDMI-LAN-Streamer is what you want. there are even some available which claim to work with mouse , but i never tried this.
so you have 1 transmitter which is connected to the hdmi of nvr and into your lan, and on each tv you have 1 receiver which grabs the lan signal.

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[amrogers3]

Interesting solution. The only thing about that is the more equipment you enter into a solution, the more problems or issues you can have down the road. Just another thing that can go bad or go out.

I figure cables are the easiest and less prone to disruption that another piece of equipment. Cables can go bad too but I've rarely had a cable fail. Also, cables would probably be cheaper than buying 3 TX/RX boxes I would need for this setup.

 

[user8963]

Running HDMI cables longer than 10m/33ft can result in problems. Not sure if you even can buy normal HDMI longer than 50ft. There are some fiber hdmi cables, but they are really expensive.

Again: its one to many. You only need 1tx and 3rx

 

[bigredfish]

Other than the built in “optional” PoE switch they’re the same. You don’t have to use the built in ports, but you can

I like the PoE NVRs as they
1- provide a bit of built in security for the cameras as they run on an unreachable subnet

2- you can mix cameras using the built in PoE along with ones on an external switch if you need/like. I do this on a number of sites.

Can’t think of any real downside

 

[Teken]

Interesting solution. The only thing about that is the more equipment you enter into a solution, the more problems or issues you can have down the road. Just another thing that can go bad or go out.

I figure cables are the easiest and less prone to disruption that another piece of equipment. Cables can go bad too but I've rarely had a cable fail. Also, cables would probably be cheaper than buying 3 TX/RX boxes I would need for this setup.

This really comes down to buying the correct 1st / 2nd tier name brand hardware vs a 3rd tier. You simply can’t expect a $40.XX Saturday Night special from AliExpress to provide you the same level of performance and reliability.

Once people realize security video will require a serious investment of time, resources, and the costs associated to the same. 99% of the population will start to skimp on key components often forgetting all this is part of an integral system.

You skimp on the wiring infrastructure - fail. Skip on POE switch - fail. Skip on the video storage - fail. Skip on power management and protection - fail.

We’ve not even talked about the actual camera yet!

My suggestion to anyone first starting off is to sit down pen to paper. The list should be want vs needs. Go through what you want and how to achieve that want. Go through the need and compare the two columns and you’ll see those decisions are driven by costs.

If money isn’t an object don’t worry about the want vs need. Just move forward in investing the right amount of finances to solid hardware that should operate for ten years.

You can’t expect a $40.XX switch to run for ten years. If it does you’re well ahead of the curve and should enjoy it knowing you saved some cash. Given, this is a serious topic the financial outlay should be serious as well.

If the want column is eight cameras but finances say for whatever legitimate reasons only four can be done now. Nothing stopping you from running all the prewiring for all eight and purchase the cameras at a later time.

The hard part is done and you simply need to install the same when ready. Now, that part has nothing to do with the other aspects like a solid managed POE+ switch with at least 24 ports and at the minimum 250 watts, 500 is more bettaaa!

You don’t have to invest in a pure sine wave UPS right now if power is clean and reliable. But if it isn’t everything that relates to the network is simply living on borrowed time.

Whether you go the route of a POE NVR vs dedicated hardware really comes down to your belief that offers the best value vs ease of management and long term maintenance / replacement.

Outside of the fan on a NVR, HD, the average person has no ability to replace or repair the same as it relates to a video (DVR / NVR) storage device. A regular computer everything can be replaced from MOBO, memory, video, sound, HD, case, CPU, etc.

Stick to building your system with proven hardware and materials that will offer you decades of service and protection.

Good luck

 

[amrogers3]

Running HDMI cables longer than 10m/33ft can result in problems. Not sure if you even can buy normal HDMI longer than 50ft. There are some fiber hdmi cables, but they are really expensive.

Again: its one to many. You only need 1tx and 3rx

Ahhh legit issue I didn't even think about. I need to measure but I think all the runs are less than 50'. I'll check though.

1. If I need to use your idea, is this how it works? This is used to "extend" the range of HDMI, correct? I still would need the same number of HDMI outputs to the number of TVs I am outputting to?
2. looks like VGA max length is 150' for the 3rd TV. Just hope I can find a long VGA cable.

Appreciate you taking the time to post your idea bud, thanks.

 

[amrogers3]

This really comes down to buying the correct 1st / 2nd tier name brand hardware vs a 3rd tier. You simply can’t expect a $40.XX Saturday Night special from AliExpress to provide you the same level of performance and reliability.

Once people realize security video will require a serious investment of time, resources, and the costs associated to the same. 99% of the population will start to skimp on key components often forgetting all this is part of an integral system.

You skimp on the wiring infrastructure - fail. Skip on POE switch - fail. Skip on the video storage - fail. Skip on power management and protection - fail.

@Teken , I am with you 100%. I am trying to keep it simple with good components. Whatever I skimp on will end up being a problem later. To add to this problem, I am too new so I dont know what 1st/2nd/3rd tier hardware is or even where to find or buy the "good stuff". What I really dont want to do is buy crap equipment and have to replace it later.

I'll throw it back at you. How would you handle 3 TV connections from a NVR with 2 HDMI and 1 VGA? That's my current problem, I think I have everything squared away for the most part.

As far as equipment goes, I did take this to paper and have a rough draft of where I want to start. 1 camera, 1 NVR, 1 TV, and the cable run.

• Monoprice CAT6 cable
• NVR: NVR608-64/128-4KS2 or the NVR5432-4KS2(V2.0)
• PoE switch: PFS3226-24ET-240
• TV: Hisense - 40" Class H55 Series LED Full HD Smart Android TV (43" is a bit big, hard to find a good 40")

 

[Teken]

Simple, video multiplexer is way to scale up whenever. Another is just using any of a dozen video converters that use Ethernet cable to span the needed distance.

Really comes down to resolution you want 1080 vs 4K.

Lots of people use up the HDMI ports from the NVR system until they need more feeds. Many have also just purchased a few cheap raspberry Pi’s and launched the web browser to view the same. The Pi is simply Velcro to the back of the TV / Monitor.

Lots of ways to accomplish this task but comes down to what fits your needs. A over the counter signal converter just works (within its distance & wiring) limits.

Hence the importance of using CAT-6 / Shielded cable where it makes sense. You want 4K at 200 feet using CAT-5e not going to happen. Wondering how come the 4K signal is so brutal when you ran the same Ethernet cable by 120 / 240 VAC lines ignoring basic distance and best practices?!?

Shielded cable was designed for that very purpose along with offering surge protection.

 

[Teken]

When you see me or others refer to 1st, 2nd, 3rd tier. This loosely speaking means companies (brands) used extensively in Enterprise / Government.

1st tier is Cisco, HP, IBM, Dell, Lenovo.

2nd tier is like TrendNet, Netgear, Ubiquiti.

3rd tier is almost every AliExpress brand under the sun. You’ll never see a 3rd tier network hardware in any serious enterprise installation. Keep in mind I am speaking about very specific pieces of hardware so this statement can’t be used to encompass everything that relates to network hardware.

As some 2nd tier vendors make hardware that no other manufacturer does say a hardened outdoor rated switch / access point.

If there is such a thing as a 4th tier that’s like every $0.99 special you’ve seen at the dollar store, etc. It should be noted many installations are governed by strict insurance and laws as it relates to why something is selected over another.

Think 24.7.365 tech support (sudden service) is the phrase. You won’t see Ubiquiti selected because this company literally offers no telephone support never mind 24.7.365!

It goes without saying 3rd tier is never used because the vast majority have no UL / cUL to affirm they conform to basic electrical safety & standards. Hence how and why it impacts insurance never mind compliance for the same.

You’ll never see any documentation about MTBF or burn in testing. You’ll surely never see a patch to plug a hole so others can’t breach the system. Which leads to why some companies have been banned from use as they have either been lazy in design or have purposely left holes in the hardware to be exploited later.

 

[tigerwillow1]

I like the PoE NVRs as they
..........
Can’t think of any real downside

My short list of downsides is:
1. POE NVR much higher fan noise
2. If NVR breaks, must throw away the switch with it, and vice-versa
And further down on the list, costs less to switch to BI if that happens in the future.

 

[Teken]

My short list of downsides is:
1. POE NVR much higher fan noise
2. If NVR breaks, must throw away the switch with it, and vice-versa
And further down on the list, costs less to switch to BI if that happens in the future.

One can always change out a fan if needed for reduced noise. The rest I agree about limited options. Regardless, NVR’s are used extensively in enterprise and the upper class is just a PC. It comes down to whether you feel and believe that brand X NVR will offer you 5-10 years of trouble free service.

Given our entire world is now based on throw away many things are hard pressed to last 2-3 years!

No right or wrong as it relates to NVR vs VMS based PC. People buy used computers all the time and often forgetting it’s - USED!

So depending upon where it came from it’s either going to last another 2-3 years or will just die tomorrow. Anytime we had equipment coming from lightning alley states it was all recycled because it was proven to be a time bomb.

Dirty power is the worst and buying hardware from places that have dirty power is just a gamble.

 

[user8963]

1st tier is Cisco, HP, IBM, Dell, Lenovo.

2nd tier is like TrendNet, Netgear, Ubiquiti.

Yeah... compare HP switch with Cisco... hahaha

It depends really on what device, but 1st tier is always cisco/ or also juniper on switches in my opinion and wide on the internet. HP, ubiquiti, netgear are on the same level on most models (cheap and L2). Maybe you find some L3/ real datacenter switches from HP which are better, but then i would choose cisco/juniper anyway. But this is more a Apple/Android discussion... you will always find a fanboy for each brand.

HP is the only one who provide REAL lifetime warranty. i wrote it here already. they changed my 24port switches from 1995 to brandnew 2530s.
Cisco lifetime warranty is fake. If you read closely, its only EOL + 3-5years.

Ubiquiti is overpriced, but easy to config.
HP and Netgear is Ok for home usage. I always buy HP because of their lifetime warranty.

When it comes to PCs..

Lenovo & Dell are awful when it comes to service. Their service is non existent and a pain in the ass. This has discussed everywhere. If you are not a company who buy 10.000 devices every year... they just dont care about you.
After IBM was sold to China and renamed to Lenovo they had MANY problems with hardware. Its now better, but still not as good as IBM.
HP have a great service, but never speaks your language. They dont care if you buy 1 or 1000 devices each year.

All using the same proprietary hardware/cases. So if something is damaged and no warranty, good luck to find a part on ebay.

All companies on the market boil with water. All buy stuff from intel. Big plus for lenovo,.. they use AMD hardware. Dell is lost in the last century. They have now some models with amd, but it seems that intel pays them much to still promote their intel shit.

Just my 2cents.

 

[Teken]

Yup lots of sites are vendor locked either due to legacy support or software application. Some are just greased by the companies (kick backs) to stay in place. Regardless of the politics as to why the basic fundamentals still remain.

Don’t buy a 3rd tier managed POE switch and expect support or patching. One can go to any 3rd tier website assuming it exists and won’t find firmware to resolve the latest network exploits.

If you go to any 1st / 2nd tier your head will spin off seeing how many updates and patches are available for each product. That tells you there are real engineers actively working to keep the hardware secure and feature rich.

I’ve never seen a 3rd tier vendor offer anything once the product shipped.

 

[Griswalduk]

Depending on your means of TV distribution a possible video solution is HDMI over coax using a modulator.See link

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Free delivery and returns on eligible orders. Buy LABGEAR EM1001 SD & HD Digital Encoder RF Modulator DVB-T with HDMI Loop Out at Amazon UK.

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[amrogers3]

NVR doesnt have COAX. I have 2 HDMI and 1 VGA. Problem with the VGA is trying to fit that through walls, that connector end is huge. I figure I am going to have to drill or cut through a wood beam to drop cable down in between the wall, then add something like this on the wall to run the cables through.

Best and cheapest solution might be just to buy a NVR with 3+ HDMI outputs. My AV cable runs are definitely less than 50' even with the extra length needed to avoid obstructions and to keep them organized and out of the way.

 

[Griswalduk]

The nvr doesn't need to have coax. Read links and check data sheets for same. They will explain it better. I don't know if an nvr exists with all the HDMI outputs you require.

LABGEAR EM1000 MANUAL Pdf Download

View and Download Labgear EM1000 manual online. HD Encoder Modulator. EM1000 modulator pdf manual download.

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Good luck

 

[Mark_M]

I am trying to wire 3 TVs to the NVR via HDMI but the Pro series has at most, 2 HDMI connections, maybe output to the 3rd TV with VGA

Have a look at TV modulators. (As mentioned above).
I got one in my system. It takes the single HDMI from my NVR and converts into the TV coax standard for my country. This then connects to the TV antenna wiring in the house.
Now the family changes to channel 22 and can see the CCTV. All TVs in the house can see it from a single a modulator connected.

It's 1 device to be plugged in, there's even a few special ones with POE.
Some TV modulators can also take an IP video stream, even multiple streams for multiple TV channels!

You only need one video feed out of the NVR to the modulator (likely HDMI). Then one cable from the modulator and stick it into your TV wiring somewhere (roof space or other). From then on it comes through the standard coax wiring you already have for your TV.

I'm using this image example with a TV antenna amplifier because my country uses over-air TV (not a coax feed into houses).

 

[Mark_M]

NVR doesnt have COAX.

This one takes an IP stream and does two TV channels.
Where he connects the TV, connect that into the existing TV aerial wiring in your house. That way every TV in the house will pick up the TV channel.
The RF input here is from his TV antenna, I have a combiner so I can adjust attenuation.