Newbie: Main-stream, sub-stream, and remote viewing options/limitations.

[DickG]

Background: I am trying to put together a system for a small office building. I will initially have 3 cameras but could increase later to over 4 so am looking at 8 channel NVRs. A key point is that other than initial setup and maintenance needs, which would necessarily be local, ALL viewing, playback, admin, etc. will be remote. My remote viewing, for sake of this thread will be on either a desktop computer or a laptop - not a mobile device, so resolution will not be a limiting factor, only the connection bandwidth will be an issue, and that will be limited by my upload speed at the building site as the internet bandwidth for upload at my site is not great - only 4 Mbps at best.

My experience so far getting answers talking with Security System vendors is not great so I am looking for some answers to questions that have me confused. Because I have several questions I might repeat this background in separate threads but stick to one basic area in each thread. As further background and for a specific system scenario, I am looking at the HikVision DS-2CD2732F-I 3MP, Varifocal, outdoor dome camera, and the HikVision DS-7600NI-E2/8P NVR, but am not committed to this system yet.

Question Area: Main-streams (MS) and sub-streams (SS).

I understand that good IP cameras can send dual streams, one called the main-stream (MS) - usually set at high resolution and a sub-stream (SS) at lower resolution. In the camera settings each can be set also with different resolutions, frame rates, bit rates, etc. but the SS is usually resolution-limited. I also understand that a key purpose for the SS is to enable use for resolution-limited, and/or bandwidth limited viewing remotely.

My questions:

1) Are both streams saved simultaneously (assuming I have enabled the SS)? Or does this depend on the particular NVR? I have been told by some NVR vendors that I must choose which one I want to record and can't record both. That seems stupid - what's the point of dual streams then? By recording both, if I have an incident that I would like to examine more closely I should be able to review the MS locally, or very slowly remotely, and extract photos or clips at the higher resolution. The SS would be used for rapid review of many hours of recording, the MS would be for detailed inspection. One vendor, however, claimed they only recorded the MS but then trans coded the MS into a SS for remote viewing. Is that common or the best way?

Other NVR vendors say both are recorded simultaneously. Is there really that much difference in NVRs? As for the HikVision system described above I cannot seem to get a firm answer as to the recording aspect (one or both being recorded) or the viewing aspect (see next question).

2) In remotely playing back the recorded video some kind of client software must be used. I have examined a few and I am also confused about the playback of the MS and the SS. Some Web-based client Software I have examined does not give me a choice of MS or SS to review - it seems that only the MS or the SS is available depending on settings on the NVR. I would want to be able to choose which I want to review at the time of playback. If I wanted to review a time-period at high resolution I would then switch to the MS for the particular time period and examine using zooming, photo snap-shots, or clip extraction, all at high resolution.This would seem to best be achieved by recording both streams as produced.

One vendor told me they recorded only the MS but trans-coded the MS to a SS for remote playback. I'm not sure that is the best method. As described above I would want to choose SS for rapid review looking for incidents and I'd like to be able to Fast-Forward (FF) as fast as possible and it seems it would be easier to do this with an already recorded stream as it would only involve skipping frames whereas FF and trans-coding simultaneous might be harder - I don't know.

I tried to examine the HikVison client software on their site and the manual of operation doesn't seem to give the option of selecting MS or SS.

I have looked at other vendors and have seen some proposed client SW that does allow me to select MS or SS (one called Smart-PSS for example does). But I don't know if that Smart-PSS SW will work with the HikVision cameras or not. The HikVision cameras are so-called ONVIF compatible with both S and G profiles (not positive about the version but it seems very up-to-date). I'm not sure exactly what that means but how do I know if the Smart-PSS will be 100% compatible with the full set of features from the HikVision camera?

In general - I am confused about what the cameras provide, what the NVRs are able to do with what the cameras offer and what the client software will provide based on what the camera and the NVR can do; specifically for this thread with the MS and SS.

3) I am also confused about the capabilities of Motion-Detection (MD) with respect to the main-stream and sub-stream. If I enable MD does that enable it for both the MS and the SS? I would guess that the camera itself identifies motion using the high-resolution MS and would therefore be able to flag the SS at the same time that motion had been detected. But darned if I can find out. How does this work? Can I review the SS for MD events and then look at the MS for detail?

4) Finally, I am confused about recording parameters for the MS and SS. In setting up the MD parameters, in one case of NVR SW I examined, one is able to set up a "normal" or "regular" resolution and frames-per-second (FPS) for continuous recording but an entirely different resolution and FPS setting for a MD event. This to me makes a lot of sense. I would like to record continuously at high resolution but low FPS but upon a MD event record at a highest resolution and high FPS during a MD event. Is this an option? In looking at the offered settings I am usually offered only Continuous, MD or Alarm Event (AE), or MD & AE. I would very much like to do as I suggest - Continuous at high resolution and low FPS (e.g. 5 FPS) but have a MD switch to a highest resolution and high (30 FPS) situation and after the MD to switch back to the normal continuous setting. Does any system allow this? Does the HikVision system described?

I have been talking about NVRs. I notice a forum dealing with Blue Iris. Does this SW do what I am asking for? If so, does anyone sell a package of hardware and software for an unattended system like I am looking for?

Sorry for the length of this "question." But I have been thrashing around the web and this forum and can't seem to zero in on the answers to make a good decision or to find a system that does what I want.

Thanks for any help on these points in advance.

 

[zero-degrees]

@DickG welcome to the forum. First you have done a lot of research, however I think you are stuck in the weeds so to speak. You have tried to educate yourself on all aspects of IP cameras and it has caused more confusion in the end. Remember to KISS - Keep it simple stupid

1. Recording mult streams is a waste of space - no reason to duplicate storage. Recording MS at the high resolution provides detailed screen shots or video if needed. You can normally stream MS video remotely if you need to without any issue in a single channel at a time. I can actually run MS on 9 channels from one of my locations remotely to a PC in the web browser if I have a solid connection however I am working with a 125/50 connection so its not to much issue. Sub streams are great for cell phone and tablet viewing even with a 4G connection - LTE connections have no issues at all, however if you want a detailed picture most NVR's and remote software let you quickly toggle over to the MS.

I'm going to give a more general answer for the rest - more a recommendation based on skill set and needs from what I gather above.

Look to match set cameras and the NVR. By doing this, you allow your NVR and ALL of its functions to work and control the cameras. Yes, many cameras like HIK have a full set of features included in them - like snapshot, record, motion detection, ETC that can be setup and configured. However, your NVR will have all these functions as well. The camera feature sets are typically for people who only use the IP cameras as standalone and not into an NVR system.

If you purchase 4 HIK cameras and an HIK POE NVR for example you just connect all the cameras to the NVR, power the NVR on, and your ready to rock and roll. You will set your MS and SS information in the NVR and it will roll to the cameras. You can setup any triggers like Motion, Line Crossing, Intrusion Detection etc on the NVR for each channel/camera and assign each camera the trigger points - email notification, record, alarm, etc.

As for remote software most NVR's have a "suggested" application for remote platforms however you can really pick and choose, but normally the suggested application is fine tuned for that NVR. As for a remote or local network software application, again, the NVR will come with software specific to use its features and functions.

I would suggest you consider poking around the forum and look for info on how to order LTS possibly. Consider one of the LTS NVR's with POE built in (4, 8, 16 channel available) Then add the LTS cameras. You will simply plug everything into the NVR, setup any desire you have on the NVR, then use the LTS remote software, or LTS Local software.

I hope the above helps clarify a little, I know i didn't address every question and concern, however you seem to be novice that has done a lot of research and may have gotten lost in the massive amounts of data along the way. Your on the right track but overly complicating some things.

Best of luck and hope this helps some, I sure mean no disrespect by the novice comments above.

 

[DickG]

Thanks zero-degrees for your input. Yes, in the field of IP Camera surveillance systems I suppose you can call me a novice, although I have considerable experience with electronics hardware design and development as well and software development - albeit not in this field. As a result, I do - as you say - tend to get down into the weeds. I have experience with older analog surveillance DVRs, but am new to the IP arena and am trying to separate hype from fact before I buy a system and realize too late it doesn't do what I thought it would. In fact, I have already been bitten once by accepting the hype from a sales group and installed the system only to find it did not work as described and returned the entire system, so really I am trying to avoid the trap for the 2nd time!

Also - inquiring minds just want to know!

I came to this forum because I thought someone would have the technical knowledge to answer my specific questions based on broad knowledge of the field. I'm afraid much of your answer sounds very much like the hype I get from salesmen; it does everything, just hook it up and all is well. Well, not really, there are lots of constraints in reality and I'm trying to discern the reality of the field. Don't take this disrespectfully either; I do appreciate your effort and you did actually address a few of my questions and I will look into LTS.

You mention the waste of storage when recording both MS and SS and that you have a solid connection (125/50 - which I take to be download/upload speed in Mbps). But storage is not and issue for me, bandwidth is as I specified my upload speed is only 4 Mbps. (I can only can get DSL, no cable is available (absent an exorbitant hook-up fee) and wireless would be too expensive. So as I described I would like versatile MS and SS utilization.

You say "The camera feature sets are typically for people who only use the IP cameras as standalone and not into an NVR system." By that do you mean that I would be better off with a computer with something like Blue Iris SW rather than an NVR which may not deal with the full set of camera capabilities? I did look at Blue Iris a little but could not discern if the MS and SS flexibility I am looking for would be there either. More research needed!

Also you say "As for remote software most NVR's have a "suggested" application for remote platforms however you can really pick and choose." Can you suggest examples of robust remote software that would work with most NVRs? The Smart-PSS software I mentioned, should I assume it will work with the HikVision NVR or do NVR manufacturers include proprietary aspects that force one to use their "recommended" remote software?

Thanks for your general comments. Yes I realize using cameras and NVRs from the same manufacturer is the best bet; I will look into LTS.

I will keep researching the forum and elsewhere. But I am still hoping someone in the forum can answer my specific questions in greater detail with possible recommendations of systems that provide the flexibility I am looking for.

Thanks again -

 

[vector18]

DickG, I replied to your PM. With Dahua, it is very simple to do what you are looking for. You can record MS and SS if you want. You can record MS as a different fps and bit rate as your motion detection setting. A question for you though, since you mention your bandwidth is limited, and want to record the SS so you can playback, does this mean you will be playing back remotely? I only ask, because if you are going to be playing back within the same network as the NVR, than you don't have to worry about your upload speed from your modem.

 

[DickG]

Thanks vector18 for your private response and this response.

Re your question:

A question for you though, since you mention your bandwidth is limited, and want to record the SS so you can playback, does this mean you will be playing back remotely? I only ask, because if you are going to be playing back within the same network as the NVR, than you don't have to worry about your upload speed from your modem.

As I emphasized in the "Background" of the initial post, I will be exclusively viewing and playing back remotely with a poor upload bandwidth of 4 Mbps at best. So I wish to have as much flexibility with regards to the MS and SS as possible.

 

[reeves1985]

Thanks vector18 for your private response and this response.

Re your question:

A question for you though, since you mention your bandwidth is limited, and want to record the SS so you can playback, does this mean you will be playing back remotely? I only ask, because if you are going to be playing back within the same network as the NVR, than you don't have to worry about your upload speed from your modem.

As I emphasized in the "Background" of the initial post, I will be exclusively viewing and playing back remotely with a poor upload bandwidth of 4 Mbps at best. So I wish to have as much flexibility with regards to the MS and SS as possible.

I don't get why you would want to record the ms and ss??

Even with bandwidth limitations you can set the quality you need for remote playback.

If you record the mainstream at full resolution I'm sure you can set the remote playback resolution and quality to suit you internet speeds

 

[zero-degrees]

@reeves1985 pretty sure this one is a black hole...

 

[DickG]

I don't get why you would want to record the ms and ss??

Even with bandwidth limitations you can set the quality you need for remote playback.

If you record the mainstream at full resolution I'm sure you can set the remote playback resolution and quality to suit you internet speeds

Well as I mentioned, evidently there are a variety of approaches. I think what you say may be partially true with NVRs like HikVision that trans-codes playback on the fly, but IMHO if I wish the most flexibility in my situation I think I would want both streams recorded which would allow easier fast-forwarding of the recorded SS and easier switching back and forth between MS and SS.

I do not know the details of how NVRs do what they do but from my electronics background it should be much easier to fast-forward a 7.5 FPS DIF SS than transcoding a 30 FPS HD MS on the fly to allow fast review remotely with limited upstream bandwidth.

Sorry but I did say I'm trying to figure out what the various NVRs and cameras actually do and I am new at this. I didn't even bring up the subject of triple streams and dynamic recording of a third stream.

Thanks for at least trying to respond helpfully.