New here, need to update my system

CaveGimp

n3wb
Joined
Jan 17, 2024
Messages
5
Reaction score
9
Location
Arizona
I purchased a system from Nellys back in 2015, a 16ch NVR with 8 POE ports, 8 3MP bullets outside and 3 4MP domes inside, all Dahua. Early yesterday morning some kid broke into my my truck, he only made off with $4 in cash, but in trying to get the video from my cameras I realized a few things.
1. My NVR just ticks me off with how difficult it is to work with and its slow
2. My cameras don't give the video quality I would like, especially in night-vision mode.

I need to upgrade my system but I don't want to throw out all the old stuff, the cameras would be fine in some other locations, just not the front. I don't want to break the bank in upgrades and I'm not looking for a full package, just a good replacement for the NVR and a few better cameras for outside in the front.

I am looking into Blue Iris as that seems to have the flexibility in a system I want and a decent price point. Its easy to find a used Dell and I have plenty of drives for storage.

Cameras, what are your recommendations for a good fixed POE camera with good NV at distance?
 

bigredfish

Known around here
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
17,524
Reaction score
48,763
Location
Floriduh
Sometimes we just need something new. BI has a lot of capabilities and is a great VMS.
If your cameras are from 2015 as well, you'll find those have also come a long way.

BI has a free evaluation you can try before you buy I believe.

Look at the 4MP Dahua 5442 series cameras as kinda the gold standard currently
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
25,050
Reaction score
48,852
Location
USA
Yep LOL - we like to tease each other on which one is better.

Many of us BI users knock the NVRs, but our experiences pre-date camera and NVR AI capabilities, which have improved the capabilities tremendously. Mine is still running as a redundant backup just recording 24/7, but like you I NEVER use it to look anything up because it is a royal pain to review any past events.

There is a big debate here on which is better. Depends on your needs and goals and expectations.

Here is the search tool of all the NVR versus BI comparisons, so look at that and decide for yourself. Plus if you have a Windows computer, you can give BI a demo trial run and see what you think.

blue iris vs nvr ip cam site:ipcamtalk.com - Google Search
 

bigredfish

Known around here
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
17,524
Reaction score
48,763
Location
Floriduh
Part of my New Years Resolution. :lmao:

Hopefully the OP can see we like to have fun and believe in Diversity

Seriously, it depends on your needs and comfort level. Cameras have advanced so much and have such great AI capabilities, that it comes down to how much fine tuning you want on the backend.

A cheap NVR will be just that. Like most things you get what you pay for. A $200 NVR won’t have the same capabilities as a $500+ NVR.
 

bigredfish

Known around here
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
17,524
Reaction score
48,763
Location
Floriduh
A far as cameras, using the 5442 and 5241 series as example

5442 Standard variable focus 4MP - Close-in to say 30-40ft



5442 Z4- more distance, less FOV 4MP - approx 60-100ft



5241 Z12- Even greater distance, less FOV, used frequently for LPR and long range tight shots- 2MP - approx 100-200 ft
 

CaveGimp

n3wb
Joined
Jan 17, 2024
Messages
5
Reaction score
9
Location
Arizona
@wittaj and @bigredfish I figured that is what I stepped into. It is this type of back and forth I am looking for. A VMS seems like a good choice because it has more "possibilities" but means I will need to put in a ton of effort to actually get it to work. A NVR is sort of a bit more plug and play but might limit what I can do. The most appealing part of BI is the ability to expand to more cameras, not get stuck with a 16 cam NVR that I thought was "enough." After skimming through the links provided I realized I will need more cams and use my existing ones for wide angle detection only.

So here is my problem, I want to identify this punk who took my $4. So I'm willing to spend hundreds of dollars to do so. :banghead: This is a EyeSurv ESIP-MP3-BT1. Install height is about 10ft, horizontal distance is about 20ft. The 2.8mm is great for a wide shot but I can't identify anything. I am also running default settings on my cams and the lens need to be cleaned. When I turn on the coach lights I get a better image at night but of course the distance is still to far. I'm rearranging my cameras to have better overall coverage to detect. Now to go purchase some better cams for identification.

vlcsnap-2024-01-16-12h25m38s870.png
 

CaveGimp

n3wb
Joined
Jan 17, 2024
Messages
5
Reaction score
9
Location
Arizona
@bigredfish My current NVR is ESDV-NVRPlus-16P which is a rebranded Dahua 4216 I think. Any suggestions on how to get it to be more friendly to work with before I decide to dump it?
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
25,050
Reaction score
48,852
Location
USA
Yep at 20 feet at night, you need a varifocal OPTICALLY zoomed to a tighter field of view like the 5442-ZE linked above.

@Ri22o gives a great example here showing this as well.



That is how most of us started with a wide angle camera on every corner and was like "I can see the whole neighborhood" but it is useless to IDENTIFY and now have more cameras than we care to admit to LOL.

And then running default/auto settings will result in motion blur/ghosting regardless of how good the camera is.



In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.

Start with:

H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.
 

bigredfish

Known around here
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
17,524
Reaction score
48,763
Location
Floriduh
Here's a good equivalent to your scene. 21ft to the front door of the jeep with a little help from a $29 Mr Beams
(Go Full Screen)

This is actually a fixed lens 3.6mm. So If I really wanted my primary focus point to be the Jeep, I;d use a variable 2.8-12mm version. But this is primarily to cover the front door and the door below it leading to my shed. I have another camera at the rear of the Jeep covering entry to that point and the rest of the drive.

Biggest problem is ALWAYS trying to do too much with a single camera., Most of us find out eventually that we need more cameras than we originally thought.

View attachment Home_ch3_20230821053432_20230821053508.mp4
 

bigredfish

Known around here
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
17,524
Reaction score
48,763
Location
Floriduh
@bigredfish My current NVR is ESDV-NVRPlus-16P which is a rebranded Dahua 4216 I think. Any suggestions on how to get it to be more friendly to work with before I decide to dump it?
For live view, reviewing footage, downloading clips, Try SmartPSS. A free Dahua software that runs on PC/Mac that is much better for those functions that the NVR itself.

Also, how are you accessing the 4216? Via its Web browser interface? Or at the machine with a monitor? The machine interface should be used for initial setup and never go back to
 
Last edited:

TonyR

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
16,807
Reaction score
39,100
Location
Alabama
I am looking into Blue Iris as that seems to have the flexibility in a system I want and a decent price point. Its easy to find a used Dell and I have plenty of drives for storage.
If you decide to go with BI (I am a fan), look for at least an 8th gen Intel i5 (like i5-8500, -8700, etc.) with 16GB RAM and Win 10 Pro. See Choosing Hardware for Blue Iris for more detail.

Put Windows, BI and BI's "db" folder on a good SSD, put BI video clips on a surveillance-rated HDD (spinner) such as a WD Purple.

Ideally, do a clean install of Windows using the MS Media Creation Tool that you load onto a USB flash drive.

For best performance follow Optimizing Blue Iris's CPU Usage and Sub Stream Guide, although using sub streams now yields better performance than the Intel hardware acceleration (HA was OK before later versions of BI worked with sub streams).

P.S - Welcome to IPCT! :wave:
 
Last edited:

looney2ns

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Messages
15,636
Reaction score
22,896
Location
Evansville, In. USA
Keep in mind, almost NO camera will perform their best if left on default/auto settings. They are not plug in play, even with NVR's.
They all must be fine tuned for best performance.
Don't mount cameras higher than 7-8ft if you want face ID's.

Any NVR or VMS system you get, you need to practice with it on a regular basis to be proficient with it, just like any activity.
 
Top