Need advice for an indoor camera

[Kyphros]

Hello everyone!

I'm in need of an IP camera for my apartment but I really want to get something good this time (last one sucked). So, here's a comprehensive list of its purposes and the features I need. If anyone could help me, I'd be grateful.

Note: I have at the very least 70€ from the refund of the last one, and around 200€ max in total right now for this. I can also save money and spend more later, though, so suggestions for cameras more costly than 200€ are welcome too.

Main purpose: watching the door and warning me immediately via email if someone enters. I currently have a system set up that allows me to receive an SMS in the minute following the reception of an email on a certain address. However, the motion detection must be accurate, and that means PIR. Otherwise, without PIR I receive hundreds of SMS a day, and that's completely USELESS.
And, of course, that also means it has to be able to send emails. If not, push notifications or SMS work too. Anything, but it has to be able to send an alarm somewhere, somehow.

Secondary purpose: watching the rest of the apartment from time to time. Which means it should be able to move. It's alright if the range isn't great, I can set it up so it doesn't require more than 60-70° of lateral movement, but I'd love a camera that can move. This, however, is only secondary.

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]Functionality required[/TD]
[TD]Importance
[/TD]
[TD]Notes
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PIR motion detection[/TD]
[TD]10/10[/TD]
[TD]It's the most important feature for a camera that is there to detect people. I can't buy a camera that cannot have a PIR sensor. External sensors are acceptable.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]High Resolution[/TD]
[TD]09/10[/TD]
[TD]1080p is the bare minimum. Better is alright, I don't care about the aspect ratio. 2048*1536 is fine for example.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alerts[/TD]
[TD]09/10[/TD]
[TD]Whether it's via email or sms or push or anything else, I need an alert system.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FTP protocol[/TD]
[TD]09/10[/TD]
[TD]Since my apartment is rather small and the most valuable thing in it is my computer it'd be retarded to save the videos on the one thing that will get stolen. So I need an FTP-capable camera. For images at the very least. Video to FTP is a bonus.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Web management (+DNS)[/TD]
[TD]07/10[/TD]
[TD]I'd rather be able to watch it via any browser but software-based management is fine. And DNS is practical, but if it's not there, it's alright, I have this covered.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Shutter Speed[/TD]
[TD]06/10[/TD]
[TD]At least 1/30 of a second. The rest I don't care, I just want a clear picture in case of an intrusion.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PoE[/TD]
[TD]05/10[/TD]
[TD]I can work with a camera that doesn't have it but I'd like it.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sound in/out[/TD]
[TD]04/10[/TD]
[TD]Might get useful once or twice. Especially in. I don't care for the out.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]WiFi[/TD]
[TD]02/10[/TD]
[TD]It's just for long term reusability. When I move out of that apartment I might use this camera with a wireless network. But if there isn't an antenna, I won't cry.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


---------------------

Cameras considered:

1. Hikvision DS-2CD2432F-IW (the best candidate; a shame that it doesn't have PTZ because everything else is A-OK)

2. AVTech AVN80X or AVN812 (lame resolution, I don't really like those)

3. D-Link DCS-5222L (lame resolution as well)

4. TRENDNet TV-IP311PI (I don't know if there's PIR but the rest seems at least average)

Now, if anyone could show me other cameras that are better than the hikvision one, that'd be great. Otherwise I'll take this one, I guess.


Thanks in advance for any answer or advice.

 

[klasipca]

Sounds like you already answered your question that DS-2CD2432F-IW is the best choice. Personally, I've deployed 4 of these over 2 years ago and yet to find anything better to replace them mainly because I can't get audio to work with Hikvision NVR and just want better image quality.

Alternatively, if you could drop PIR requirement this would be the next best choice for PTZ:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2Mp-Full-HD-Network-Mini-IR-PTZ-Dome-IP-Camera-SD29204S-GN/32422514233.html

Unlike Hikvision though, you can only get either POE or wireless option.

 

[Kyphros]

Damn, that's a shame. Really wish yours had PIR, because it's a feature I simply cannot skip.

At least I still have the option to buy 2 cameras.

I'll wait a little for more answers, but I guess it's going to be the Hikvision. And in a few months I'll buy another one that's got PTZ. So I can use the Hikvision for the door exclusively, and then another one without PIR but with PTZ in another part of the room.

I did find that one on aliexpress, but it's ugly as shit, can't do PoE, and apparently has overheating problems (there's a Russian guy talking about that in the comments section). I wonder if anyone here has tried one of these "SunEyes" cameras.

Still, I wonder why so many camera manufacturers simply don't put PIR detectors on their cams. It's far from expensive, makes software motion detection completely obsolete, it doesn't take much room in the camera, and it's absolutely necessary if you want to use the camera for security purposes. And I'm pretty sure that most people don't put cameras in their homes for fun, but rather for security purposes.

 

[klasipca]

Damn, that's a shame. Really wish yours had PIR, because it's a feature I simply cannot skip.

At least I still have the option to buy 2 cameras.

I'll wait a little for more answers, but I guess it's going to be the Hikvision. And in a few months I'll buy another one that's got PTZ. So I can use the Hikvision for the door exclusively, and then another one without PIR but with PTZ in another part of the room.

I did find that one on aliexpress, but it's ugly as shit, can't do PoE, and apparently has overheating problems (there's a Russian guy talking about that in the comments section). I wonder if anyone here has tried one of these "SunEyes" cameras.

I looked at that one for a while, (it's originally a Ratignsecu brand http://www.ratingsecu.com/ which was released over 2 years ago in this form), but I can't commit to this, it doesn't seem very reliable or good firmware from my research. Also, like you said it's ugly,

 

[fenderman]

Damn, that's a shame. Really wish yours had PIR, because it's a feature I simply cannot skip.

At least I still have the option to buy 2 cameras.

I'll wait a little for more answers, but I guess it's going to be the Hikvision. And in a few months I'll buy another one that's got PTZ. So I can use the Hikvision for the door exclusively, and then another one without PIR but with PTZ in another part of the room.

I did find that one on aliexpress, but it's ugly as shit, can't do PoE, and apparently has overheating problems (there's a Russian guy talking about that in the comments section). I wonder if anyone here has tried one of these "SunEyes" cameras.

Still, I wonder why so many camera manufacturers simply don't put PIR detectors on their cams. It's far from expensive, makes software motion detection completely obsolete, it doesn't take much room in the camera, and it's absolutely necessary if you want to use the camera for security purposes. And I'm pretty sure that most people don't put cameras in their homes for fun, but rather for security purposes.

PIR does not make pixel based motion obsolete. There are many times that you want to be able to detect motion well before a pir could pick it up or of something that a pir cannot detect. Also, the best position for accurate PIR motion detection is not always the best position for the camera.
You can add pir to any camera with an external alarm, or if using a vms like blue iris, you can use a network device like the sealevel 120e to trigger recording/alerts. With good vms, you can set motion detection to be almost as accurate as a pir sensor for detecting humans close to the camera. Installing a high quality external pir sensor in a camera is not cheap. It also limits camera design.
The trendnet is a rebranded hikvision.

 

[Kyphros]

PIR does not make pixel based motion obsolete.

In retrospect, you're right, but at least in my case it does. The last camera I had sent me an alert every time the light levels in the room changed, because of the pixel-based motion detection. I have a big window and thin curtains, so every time the sun moved in the sky, there was an alert. And I don't mean one for the morning and one for the evening, I mean 450 alarms per hour in the morning, 200 per hour in the afternoon and 450 per hour again in the evening. All of that, no matter the sensibility levels of the motion detection areas (went as low as 1% and it was still way too much). With a PIR I wouldn't have that problem.

There are many times that you want to be able to detect motion well before a pir could pick it up or of something that a pir cannot detect.

Of course, if I was looking for something that isn't alive, I wouldn't use a PIR, but I'm using this for an eventual robbery, and usually robbers are not machines (not yet at least). Of course, there's also the case of outdoor cameras, which, I am sure, can see farther than the PIR can detect living things in some cases, but I don't know how a PIR would be less effective than a pixel-based motion detection when inside a run-of-the-mill apartment/house (not a stadium with 30 feet high ceilings). Could you explain? Is there something I didn't understand about PIR?

Also, the best position for accurate PIR motion detection is not always the best position for the camera.

Yup. That's understandable, but still, on most cameras there isn't even an outlet where you can plug an external PIR. I don't understand that...

 

[fenderman]

In retrospect, you're right, but at least in my case it does. The last camera I had sent me an alert every time the light levels in the room changed, because of the pixel-based motion detection. I have a big window and thin curtains, so every time the sun moved in the sky, there was an alert. And I don't mean one for the morning and one for the evening, I mean 450 alarms per hour in the morning, 200 per hour in the afternoon and 450 per hour again in the evening. All of that, no matter the sensibility levels of the motion detection areas (went as low as 1% and it was still way too much). With a PIR I wouldn't have that problem.



Of course, if I was looking for something that isn't alive, I wouldn't use a PIR, but I'm using this for an eventual robbery, and usually robbers are not machines (not yet at least). Of course, there's also the case of outdoor cameras, which, I am sure, can see farther than the PIR can detect living things in some cases, but I don't know how a PIR would be less effective than a pixel-based motion detection when inside a run-of-the-mill apartment/house (not a stadium with 30 feet high ceilings). Could you explain? Is there something I didn't understand about PIR?



Yup. That's understandable, but still, on most cameras there isn't even an outlet where you can plug an external PIR. I don't understand that...

A cheap pir sensor is just as bad as poor motion detection. Cheap PIR sensors can false trigger. Most folks dont run a separate pir because you need to run power to it too.
As you can see there is a larger selection of indoor cameras with pir because its easier to design an indoor camera with pir and it can be more effective indoors.
As far as your false alerts, you likely had a cheap junk camera with no advanced motion detection like line cross or intrusion detection. Pixel based motion can be very good if set correctly.

 

[Kyphros]

A cheap pir sensor is just as bad as poor motion detection. Cheap PIR sensors can false trigger.

I didn't know that. I guess they have to be really, really cheap. Obviously you won't recommend one like that, though. :laugh:

As far as your false alerts, you likely had a cheap junk camera with no advanced motion detection like line cross or intrusion detection. Pixel based motion can be very good if set correctly.

Yup, exactly, a cheap junk camera. That's what it is. Luckily I'm getting a refund.

However, I've searched a little for "line cross" and "intrusion detection", and only found forums saying that it wasn't exactly accurate (including this thread, from this very forum). I still think PIR is better for me. In fact, basically, the camera will face the door (or be close to it at the very least), and although the light in the apartment changes a lot, there shouldn't be a different heat signature, at any time. But if someone enters, then the PIR can detect the person. However, the camera will be so close to the door that line crossing won't work well (I think), and since the entrance is in the main room, it also means that "intrusion detection" will either be too sensible or not work at all (especially if I set a threshold that's too high and the guy just walks out of the camera's field of view, it only takes 2-3 seconds).

 

[fenderman]

I didn't know that. I guess they have to be really, really cheap. Obviously you won't recommend one like that, though. :laugh:



Yup, exactly, a cheap junk camera. That's what it is. Luckily I'm getting a refund.

However, I've searched a little for "line cross" and "intrusion detection", and only found forums saying that it wasn't exactly accurate (including this thread, from this very forum). I still think PIR is better for me. In fact, basically, the camera will face the door (or be close to it at the very least), and although the light in the apartment changes a lot, there shouldn't be a different heat signature, at any time. But if someone enters, then the PIR can detect the person. However, the camera will be so close to the door that line crossing won't work well (I think), and since the entrance is in the main room, it also means that "intrusion detection" will either be too sensible or not work at all (especially if I set a threshold that's too high and the guy just walks out of the camera's field of view, it only takes 2-3 seconds).

What you really need is an alarm system and a camera.

 

[Kyphros]

What you really need is an alarm system and a camera.

Yeah but I'm renting so no holes in the wall, and no holes in the door. Though I'm still going to search for some alarm systems. Thanks for the tip, I somehow didn't think of that.

 

[Kawboy12R]

Most homeowner alarm systems are wireless and the PIRs and window/door sensors are stuck up with sticky pads so no holes. If you can, stick a 2432 with 2.8mm lens in a corner and you've got over a 90 degree FOV so you've got the whole room covered with no pan required. You can also get all kinds of different living room friendly formats of 850 or 940 nm illuminators if you want better vision in the dark. Pick 940 if you don't want red Cylon eyes staring at you or visitors when the lights are off.

 

[Kyphros]

M window/door sensors are stuck up with sticky pads so no holes.

Yup, I've found a few but they look awful in terms of quality. Although a very basic one will do. I just want it to stay in place and not fall after a few months like some people reported on those models. Also I'll have to ask the flat's doorkeeper if I can actually use one of those, because I've read that in some flats the noisy alarms are forbidden. Maybe it's the case of the one where I live.

As for the camera, I don't know if the one I found on amazon.fr has a 2.8mm lens. I'll search a little more.

Edit: found the 2.8mm version. Bought it.

 

[pixel]

Yup, I've found a few but they look awful in terms of quality. Although a very basic one will do. I just want it to stay in place and not fall after a few months like some people reported on those models. Also I'll have to ask the flat's doorkeeper if I can actually use one of those, because I've read that in some flats the noisy alarms are forbidden. Maybe it's the case of the one where I live.

It just seems like you are trying to get a camera to do the job of an alarm which it is not designed for. You can try it but seems like it will not be that accurate, dependable or reliable.

I have serviced tons of wireless alarms that were up for years and working just fine. I put my sensors up with 3M double sided tape and silicone, they stay up. You can also turn off the voice descriptions and keypad noise of most alarms.

If it is not in your lease why ask you property manager if you can have an alarm ? that like asking if you can have a bedside alarm of microwave that beeps.