Missed motion event on a 5442. Size of the detection box?

[ipmania]

So this morning when my neighbour slipped out of his house at an unholy hour (5:52am--I'm still sound asleep!), my 5442 IDENTIFY camera missed it. I know of it because my OBSERVATION (overview) 5442 caught him.

I am thinking that this is because the path my neighbour takes to his car is on the edge of my IDENTIFY camera.

Being a noob to BI and everything else, I am running most things at default. And so I am thinking that BI doesn't "see" everything the camera sees because when I go into Camera Settings > Trigger > Motion Sensor > Configure, there is a blue box in the camera view that is only about 60% of the area of the camera view. And when my neighbour leaves his house, the path he takes is not within the blue box. Is this blue box the "motion detection" box?

If so, how can I increase its size?

And will increasing the size have some other effect (such as driving up CPU usage or perhaps coming at the cost of better detection)? If so, I can cut out some areas such as rooftops and sky (that is if I learn how to alter the box size [if indeed that was why the event was missed]...).

 

[wittaj]

This isn't a missed motion on the 5442 as it would be the same regardless, this is a BI motion missed issue.

The Blue box is not the motion detection area, rather that is the reset size if something is larger than that then the camera doesn't trigger.

You need to go into object detection in BI motion and uncheck moves 100 pixels and uncheck the reset detector - those are used to knock out false triggers and you have the opposite going on.

You need to set make time, min object size, and min contrast to smaller numbers.

Are you not using IVS in the camera to feed that to BI?

 

[fenderman]

So this morning when my neighbour slipped out of his house at an unholy hour (5:52am--I'm still sound asleep!), my 5442 IDENTIFY camera missed it. I know of it because my OBSERVATION (overview) 5442 caught him.

I am thinking that this is because the path my neighbour takes to his car is on the edge of my IDENTIFY camera.

Being a noob to BI and everything else, I am running most things at default. And so I am thinking that BI doesn't "see" everything the camera sees because when I go into Camera Settings > Trigger > Motion Sensor > Configure, there is a blue box in the camera view that is only about 60% of the area of the camera view. And when my neighbour leaves his house, the path he takes is not within the blue box. Is this blue box the "motion detection" box?

If so, how can I increase its size?

And will increasing the size have some other effect (such as driving up CPU usage or perhaps coming at the cost of better detection)? If so, I can cut out some areas such as rooftops and sky (that is if I learn how to alter the box size [if indeed that was why the event was missed]...).

The question implies you have not read the help file.
Also change the algorithm to simple

 

[ipmania]

This isn't a missed motion on the 5442 as it would be the same regardless, this is a BI motion missed issue.

The Blue box is not the motion detection area, rather that is the reset size if something is larger than that then the camera doesn't trigger.

You need to go into object detection in BI motion and uncheck moves 100 pixels and uncheck the reset detector - those are used to knock out false triggers and you have the opposite going on.

You need to set make time, min object size, and min contrast to smaller numbers.

Are you not using IVS in the camera to feed that to BI?

Thanks for the tips. I'm just a noob. I will investigate the use of smaller numbers for the object size and contrast, etc.

Re: IVS. How much of a noob am I, you ask? I don't yet know what "IVS" stands for... But I do have a vague sense that it refers to crossing lines or zones.
The cameras are pretty much at default right now except for changing the frame rate (to 10) and encoding (to H.264) and so I'm not sure they are doing any kind of IVS. I do remember reading about (and maybe it was you who suggested it) letting the cameras do the detecting and not have BI do it (maybe to save CPU cycles?).

 

[ipmania]

The question implies you have not read the help file.
Also change the algorithm to simple

Guilty as charged, though I've enjoyed reading lots on this forum. For a beginner, the help file starts quickly getting into the weeds and I'm not quite able to understand everything yet. Just having fun with all the cameras at the moment.

Thanks for the note to change the algorithm to "Simple". I think it's at the default of "Edge Vector" right now.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah, IVS refers to the camera AI

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only. I am currently...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

Now in terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures. You need to get off of default. These are done within the camera GUI thru a web browser.

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.

 

[fenderman]

Guilty as charged, though I've enjoyed reading lots on this forum. For a beginner, the help file starts quickly getting into the weeds and I'm not quite able to understand everything yet. Just having fun with all the cameras at the moment.

Thanks for the note to change the algorithm to "Simple". I think it's at the default of "Edge Vector" right now.

You must read it. Otherwise you are wasting your time and spinning your wheels. If you dont understand how motion detection works how can you expect to capture motion events.

 

[ipmania]

Now in terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures. You need to get off of default. These are done within the camera GUI thru a web browser.

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.

Thanks for that. Will investigate further.

I'm fairly familiar with digital photography and what you've said here has links to what I am familiar with in that arena. In photography, many people have to wrestle with the dilemma of shutter speed vs ISO noise when light gets low. I'm in the camp that argues for faster shutter speeds to "get the shot" whereas some people want the cleanest (i.e. lowest-noise) shot possible. People also try to weigh in with wider aperture lenses, larger sensors, noise-reduction and sharpening in post-processing , augmenting with extra light (flash, continuous), etc.

That's also why I'm having fun with security systems. It's interesting to geek out with it!

 

[ipmania]

You must read it. Otherwise you are wasting your time and spinning your wheels. If you dont understand how motion detection works how can you expect to capture motion events.

Will do. I've learned lots already. I started out with a 6-camera NVR system from a big-box store and returned it because of how unimpressive it was. (It had all the buzzwords, like 4K, face recognition, email alerting, etc.) but at night, on our driveway, it couldn't realistically let me recognize my son's girlfriend when she was walking through. I didn't know why it was so bad until I got here. Now I do and have purchased much more effective gear and building the system out piece-meal. But I know there's yet another level to reach via tweaking and using more appropriate settings than the defaults.

 

[Flintstone61]

I got some Buzz words for those Big Box Store Kits.

 

[JNDATHP]

I got some Buzz words for those Big Box Store Kits.

Or are you just buzzed?

 

[Flintstone61]