Lorex Costco Kit N8442-8DF4

[vhblanco]

I know kits from major retailers are usually NOT recommended here, but is this kit any good for basic surveillance or are there any major cons?

https://www.costco.com/.product.100801147.html?&EMID=B2C_2021_1209_Day7Deals

(currently for sale at $479)

turret style cameras got smart deterrence light, SMD, notifications for packages, I think 2.8 mm lens and 1/2.8" image sensor

 

[wittaj]

If all you care about is what time something happened, but not be able to IDENTIFY, then yeah it will work.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k on the wrong sensor will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms, so don't be sold on those names.

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. Unless you go to a PTZ, a 4K camera to get clean IDENTIFY captures at a distance is not on the market yet...

To identify someone with the wide-angle 2.8mm lens that most people opt for (and what is in most kits), someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to eliminate motion blur at night.




My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k Lorex cam kit he bought from Costco to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. Meanwhile my 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in to the public sidewalk provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back. Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car. That neighbor with the Costco Lorex 4k cams started to replace with 2MP models based on what he saw my do compared to his.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

 

[vhblanco]

If all you care about is what time something happened, but not be able to IDENTIFY, then yeah it will work.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k on the wrong sensor will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms, so don't be sold on those names.

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. Unless you go to a PTZ, a 4K camera to get clean IDENTIFY captures at a distance is not on the market yet...

To identify someone with the wide-angle 2.8mm lens that most people opt for (and what is in most kits), someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to eliminate motion blur at night.

View attachment 111387


My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k Lorex cam kit he bought from Costco to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. Meanwhile my 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in to the public sidewalk provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back. Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car. That neighbor with the Costco Lorex 4k cams started to replace with 2MP models based on what he saw my do compared to his.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

thanks, yeah I think image quality is the biggest con, I dont chase MP but I think a lot of people (avg consumers) say "woah 4k and 8 mp must be really good" and dont even notice the sensor size, so that's why all Costco cameras are 4k lol

I know Lorex is owned by Dahua so maybe they actually manufacture some good cameras but won't be found at costco

 

[mat200]

I know kits from major retailers are usually NOT recommended here, but is this kit any good for basic surveillance or are there any major cons?

https://www.costco.com/.product.100801147.html?&EMID=B2C_2021_1209_Day7Deals

(currently for sale at $479)

turret style cameras got smart deterrence light, SMD, notifications for packages, I think 2.8 mm lens and 1/2.8" image sensor

welcome @vhblanco

iirc those are newer smaller sensor model cameras and Dahua OEM

If you plan to pick up that kit, I would augment it with 1-2 4MP 1/1.8" sensor model Dahua OEM camera(s) to cover the most critical low light area(s).

note, I do like Costco's return policies, however the new Lorex model cameras this season show no larger sensor model cameras last I checked ..





update:

Image Sensor Size
1/2.8 in.

 

[wittaj]

Yes that is the nice thing about Lorex is they are Dahua OEM, so they will be better cameras than most other consumer grade cameras out there.

So if you supplement it with some decent Dahua OEM cams like @mat200 suggests, then it is a decent starter system.

The biggest drawback that the specs don't call out is what is the bandwidth capability of the NVR. Most of these kits limit it to 80Mbps, which means even though it may "support" 4K, it will come at a cost of bitrate to allow that to happen. My neighbor has now added enough cams to use all the channels and can only run his cams at 4192 bitrate and for a 4K camera, it should be at least double that.

So now you are stuck with 4K cams on a blind sensor and then handcuff the bitrate to a low number and that all equals poor image quality.

 

[vhblanco]

the thing is I don't think a bulgar will be identifed if he doesn't want to be identified, even with the absolutely best image quality, I've seen videos on nextdoor app of recently break-ins in the area, and the dude is crawling with hood, never facing the camera, they know where exactly the cameras are.

So if we CANNOT see the face of the person no matter the image quality at least the Active Deterrence (Warning Light + Siren) and live notification for SMD (person detected, object removed from certain area), etc. could be more useful that image quality, but maybe they're just gimmicks and don't even work well during the night.

Currently we have cameras recording with decent quality but no deterrence light, siren or SMD so all we can do is review what happened AFTER it already happened.

 

[wittaj]

Most people install the cameras too high. Under soffits and on the 2nd floor are too high.

Most videos from Nextdoor are doorbell cams or wifi cams and are not the quality cameras folks here run.

Install the cameras at head height and in all different locations and heights and you will get the person. People here have put them in birdfeeders, bushes, planters, landscaping, cut out the o in a Welcome sign at the front door for the camera lens, etc.

Perps expect the cams to be up under soffits and at 10feet+ high, and yes all you will get is top of heads and hoodies if they are installed in those locations.

Active Deterrence is good and I have several of them, but most of these people do not even flinch when a floodlight comes on - they continue with their rummaging. You may spook a few, but don't expect it to be the magic solution either.

 

[mat200]

the thing is I don't think a bulgar will be identifed if he doesn't want to be identified, even with the absolutely best image quality, I've seen videos on nextdoor app of recently break-ins in the area, and the dude is crawling with hood, never facing the camera, they know where exactly the cameras are.

So if we CANNOT see the face of the person no matter the image quality at least the Active Deterrence (Warning Light + Siren) and live notification for SMD (person detected, object removed from certain area), etc. could be more useful that image quality, but maybe they're just gimmicks and don't even work well during the night.

Currently we have cameras recording with decent quality but no deterrence light, siren or SMD so all we can do is review what happened AFTER it already happened.

Hi @vhblanco

You will need more cameras and more pixels on subjects.

Often other identifications help, and often you can catch info on the car they use.

Some will hood up right before they get to your property - so you need to put cameras which cover the sidewalks a bit away from the front of your house.
( we've seen attackers hood up just in front of the adjacent house )

Do check some of the image captures we've posted here.

Also, I recall one thief who was helped identified by their sneakers ..

remember alarms systems also .. all these fancy camera systems are still not great alarm systems .. so you should have each ..

 

[wittaj]

^+1 this!!!!!

Most of us have varifocal cams that are optically zoomed to the sidewalk/street to catch the perp when they are not expecting to be on camera so they are looking around, maybe have the hood down, etc.

 

[vhblanco]

^+1 this!!!!!

Most of us have varifocal cams that are optically zoomed to the sidewalk/street to catch the perp when they are not expecting to be on camera so they are looking around, maybe have the hood down, etc.

Yeah that guy entered by jumping the backyard fence, he broke the window and was extremely careful not to trigger the alarm system, he probably was already inside the house as knew the layout pretty well, knew were exactly to go and knew they didn't have glass break detectors. Sometimes these POS are just too careful to avoid everything lol

 

[vhblanco]

Deterrence is good and I have several of them, but most of these people do not even flinch when a floodlight comes on - they continue with their rummaging. You may spook a few, but don't expect it to be the magic solution either.

agreed, sometimes the notification will be just telling you you've been bulgarized, kinda of as a radar detector, sometimes if it detects K-band from a radar, it tells you to slow down before the cop gets your speed, but if the radar detector gives you a laser alert is telling you "hey you WILL be pulled over in the next few seconds" lol

 

[mat200]

Hi @vhblanco

For most homes I can easily see putting up 6+ cameras to start with.

example:
1 camera on each side of the garage covering the driveway
2 cameras covering the front door ( one at face level for a straight on facial ID image chance, one covering the package drop area .. )
1 camera on each side of the house

That's 6 cameras to start with .. then add any cameras you need to cover the street ..

As it is very easy to hit 8+ cameras, I normally like to recommend considering an NVR or VMS that can handle more than 8 channels ..

If you are on a tight budget, Costco does have deals at times .. and while I prefer better cameras than the Lorex ones - that could be a decent start .. I would definitely augment that kit with a couple of 4MP 1/1.8" sensor cameras to cover the front of my house ..

 

[vhblanco]

Hi @vhblanco

For most homes I can easily see putting up 6+ cameras to start with.

example:
1 camera on each side of the garage covering the driveway
2 cameras covering the front door ( one at face level for a straight on facial ID image chance, one covering the package drop area .. )
1 camera on each side of the house

That's 6 cameras to start with .. then add any cameras you need to cover the street ..

As it is very easy to hit 8+ cameras, I normally like to recommend considering an NVR or VMS that can handle more than 8 channels ..

If you are on a tight budget, Costco does have deals at times .. and while I prefer better cameras than the Lorex ones - that could be a decent start .. I would definitely augment that kit with a couple of 4MP 1/1.8" sensor cameras to cover the front of my house ..

thanks again Mat, I actually already have a couple of 4MP 1/1.8", this model to be exact:

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-IPC-T5442T-ZE-Vari-Focal-Eyeball-Starlight/dp/B08C77TNY9

and this NVR:

Amazon.com : EmpireTech NVR5208-8P-4KS2E 8 Channel 1U 8PoE 4K&H.265 Pro Network Video Recorder English Version : Electronics

Amazon.com : EmpireTech NVR5208-8P-4KS2E 8 Channel 1U 8PoE 4K&H.265 Pro Network Video Recorder English Version : Electronics

www.amazon.com

the Lorex from Costco would have been to complement or replace four of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-T2431T-AS-Eyeball-Network-English/dp/B081Q38RPY/ref=sr_1_18?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1636592550&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&sr=1-18&th=1&tag=ipctk-20

but as stated previously mainly because of the deterrence features (siren and lights) and SMD, rather than because of image quality.

Currently those three are not covering a lot of area and are pointing very specific points, i.e. just the back door to the house or just the fence door to the hall to the backyard.

My plan was to sell the white Lorex NVR from costco for like a hundred bucks so each camera is less than $100 but I don't even know if those Lorex cameras would be compatible with my NVR.

 

[sebastiantombs]

For a normal, rectangular house I use a total of twelve cameras. Two on each side with views "opposing" each other so each camera is watched by another. On the "long" sides, front and rear, there's a third camera center mounted looking straight out to fill in the holes. There's a video doorbell right at the door. Inside there's a camera that covers the main areas of interest. If you have a garage add another two, or three if it's a two car garage. Better to have too much coverage than not enough.

 

[mat200]

thanks again Mat, I actually already have a couple of 4MP 1/1.8", this model to be exact:

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-IPC-T5442T-ZE-Vari-Focal-Eyeball-Starlight/dp/B08C77TNY9

and this NVR:

Amazon.com : EmpireTech NVR5208-8P-4KS2E 8 Channel 1U 8PoE 4K&H.265 Pro Network Video Recorder English Version : Electronics

Amazon.com : EmpireTech NVR5208-8P-4KS2E 8 Channel 1U 8PoE 4K&H.265 Pro Network Video Recorder English Version : Electronics

www.amazon.com

the Lorex from Costco would have been to complement or replace four of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-T2431T-AS-Eyeball-Network-English/dp/B081Q38RPY/ref=sr_1_18?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1636592550&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&sr=1-18&th=1&tag=ipctk-20

but as stated previously mainly because of the deterrence features (siren and lights) and SMD, rather than because of image quality.

Currently those three are not covering a lot of area and are pointing very specific points, i.e. just the back door to the house or just the fence door to the hall to the backyard.

My plan was to sell the white Lorex NVR from costco for like a hundred bucks so each camera is less than $100 but I don't even know if those Lorex cameras would be compatible with my NVR.

Hi @vhblanco

As the cameras and NVRs are Dahua OEM they should work with each other, at least on the basic functionality.

Some of the newer features ( AI, deterrence, et al .. ) will require the NVR firmware to be supportive of the cameras ( and vice versa ).

Normally need to sync user / password, ports, substreams .. ( search lorex here on the forum ) iirc

btw:
Loryta 4MP Starlight POE IR Turret IP Camera WDR IP67 Weatherproof, Support IVS, Built-in Mic, High Image Definition, Built-in IR LED, Fixed Lens IPC-T2431T-AS 3.6mm
4MP Starlight: 4MP, 1/3”

So I would still look to try and get a 4MP 1/1.8" for the most critical low light view


the 1/3" sensor camera discussed btw ..

 

[mlandau33]

Do you know if Andy's 5442 IP cameras would work with the Lorex NVR in this kit (LN844), basically as plug'n'play?

 

[sebastiantombs]

It may display video, but it will overwhelm the bandwidth of the NVR.

 

[wittaj]

My neighbor bought some cams from Andy and his Lorex NVR throttled the bitrate to 4192 and most of us have found the 5442 series needs 8192 bitrate.

 

[mlandau33]

I ended up buying a 5442 fixed 3.6 from Andy on Amazon and added it to the above Lorex system. It appears to be working fine. I can't speak to the throttling of the bitrate because I don't think I get that info from the Lorex firmware. For me, the picture/video seems very good at night, but not outstanding.

 

[wittaj]

You should be able to see in the NVR GUI what bitrate the camera is at.

Go to Internet Explorer and type in the IP address of the NVR and log in to the NVR that way and you will gain access to more information than what you can see pulling up the NVR on a monitor.

The 5442 camera is a great model, but like any camera, used at the wrong field of view or running on auto/default will result in poor performance.

You need to log into the camera GUI via the "e" of the NVR GUI to get to these settings. DO NOT SET them from within the NVR itself.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

But first, run H264, smart codec off, CBR, and 8192 bitrate to start. This should make it more crisp.

I think you should also take off manual IR - your camera is low so you are getting a lot of IR bounce off the ground that is degrading the picture.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-30 (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night image results in Casper during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

So if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.