IPC-4k Turret stutter video

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n3wb
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Hi, new to the forum, but have combed existing threads for a solution to no avail. Running a single Empiretech IPC 4k Turret (3.6mm) on February 2023 firmware, BI 5.7.5.5, W10 Pro, i5-13500, 32GB ram.

I've tried various combinations of stream resolution, i-frame interval, bitrate, encoding, hardware acceleration, AI on, AI off, disabling substream... and viewing the camera in the web interface, in BI, in UI3, all skip frames/result in jankiness when an object moves (cars going 25mph down the street or even me walking down the driveway).

The camera is hardwired to a Unifi PoE switch. Everything is hardwired. Direct-to-disk enabled.

Any suggestions? In another thread i saw @bigredfish post a buttery smooth clip of a delivery person and i really hope I can achieve that quality.

Thanks all!
 
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Can you post an example clip? Does it do it on recorded footage?
I'd be happy to - how do I get a .bvr converted into a file that can be posted here? thanks for the reponse.

EDIT: I converted it, and it's attached here. First you see the recording kick over from substream to 4k (that's not the skipping i'm talking about). keep an eye on the cars moving down the street. especially the light color toyota at 12:18:19. there's also a bit as i walk towards the house.
 
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Here is a thread you might want to check out. Not sure if it is covered.

 

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Here is a thread you might want to check out. Not sure if it is covered.

Thanks, I reviewed the thread. No real specifics in there for my issue.

Is it known to be problematic to direct-to-disk record on a RAID1 array of 2 surveillance grade HDDs? None of their usage (nor CPU nor memory) are ever pegged
 

wittaj

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It could be anything, which makes it hard to track down.

I would think with your computer it should keep up, but there could always be a bottleneck somewhere. Most here do not run BI in a RAID format. Just not worth it. It is better to spread the cameras among the drives than some RAID format that people have done and then it takes days or weeks to get going again when they replace a drive with BI.

Remember @bigredfish is using an NVR, so it is all known and optimized for Dahua OEM cameras. BI is great, but that opens up so many different combinations of computers and equipment and processors and...well you get the point.

The video isn't that bad. The stutter of you at the beginning is probably an iframe issue that could be resolved with a prebuffer record time (default BI is 0 seconds). And remember these are surveillance cameras, not Hollywood movies. Further Hollywood is shot at 24FPS. Most of us use 10-15FPS as that is all that is needed.

Nothing in that video would prevent you from being able to use it to help find a perp.

Depending on what else you have going on with that camera, you may be maxing out the processor in the camera. Do you have an SD card in it to see if it exhibits the same behavior? If it does, then you know it is maxing out and isn't a BI issue.

For kicks, try the following:

H264 with no other codec.
8192 bitrate
CBR
15 FPS
15 iframes
 

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First off, thanks to all for the responses.

Most here do not run BI in a RAID format. Just not worth it. It is better to spread the cameras among the drives than some RAID format that people have done and then it takes days or weeks to get going again when they replace a drive with BI.
I'll reconsider my use of RAID. It's not clear to me why it would take days or weeks to mirror an existing drive, but I can learn about that elsewhere on the forum. Do let me know if there are known incompatibilities or performance issues with RAID, though.

@bigredfish is using an NVR
That's fair, and I do understand that OEM optimizations will edge out certain platforms. However it's really hard for me to believe that my machine, with 13th gen i5, etc., can't handle 30fps (or 15fps...keep reading...) without dropping frames but the NVR can.

The stutter of you at the beginning
I think I addressed this in the OP, and that delay when i first appear on frame is attributed to kicking over to Main Stream from SubStream. Thanks for the tip on the prebuffer and I can tweak to lessen that. But i wanted to highlight the stuttering of the vehicles moving by in post #3.

surveillance cameras, not Hollywood movies. Further Hollywood is shot at 24FPS. Most of us use 10-15FPS as that is all that is needed
I defer to my previous comment about the comparably low-spec NVR handling 30fps just fine. Sure, maybe 10-15FPS is the standard and accepted, but this notion is (respectfully) a red herring. Hoping to start fully optimized, then back off to 15FPS 'because i can', not because i need to.

Do you have an SD card in it to see if it exhibits the same behavior?
No, and this is something I may be able to try in the future. Thanks for the idea.

H264 with no other codec.
8192 bitrate
CBR
15 FPS
15 iframes
Tried, and example footage attached. Again, I see some dropped frames even at 15FPS.

I'm not so sure that Direct-to-Disk works in the Evaluation Version
Can anybody confirm this?

After reviewing the attached footage, any other feedback?

EDIT: I previously attached footage I thought was 15FPS but have since removed it because I see it was 30FPS. I have since changed my encoding to 15FPS on the H264 codec and I don't see the same problems. The 15FPS is now attached below. The sentiment of my problem is still true though - really seems like I should be able to get great footage at 30FPS when the camera is rated for that and my machine is spec'd accordingly.
 
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wittaj

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Very few products are able to run every feature at max value. There is always a compromise.

Running a camera at every rated spec can cause other issues and impact image quality.

Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of an option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.

Or growing up and my parents are driving on the highway up a steep grade, in the summer we would hit the turbo button (turn off the AC LOL) on our little 4 cylinder so that we could stay the speed limit going up the hill. Same thing running a camera at rated spec.

1681473783997.png


Look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite or despite the proper shutter speed they can't get a good freeze frame picture and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...

Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.

In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU or cut bitrate or be slow to detect an object, etc, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.

Sure 30 or 60FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable. My neighbor runs his at 60FPS, so the person or car goes by looking smooth, but it is a blur when trying to freeze frame it because the camera can't keep up with his other settings.. Meanwhile my camera at 15FPS with the proper shutter speed gets the clean shots.


So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.

Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.

This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.

1669132511834.png


At the end of the day, if the consumer wants cameras that can do 30FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.

And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.

And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature...

We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that, so more FPS isn't needed and is simply a waste of storage space and potentially causing something to be missed while the camera CPU is maxing out.


Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS


 

wittaj

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From the wiki:

RAID is not usually recommended, as most of what a video surveillance system records is worthless. If you wish for your system to be protected from disk failure, use a RAID type which offers redundant storage, such as RAID 1, 5, 6, or 10. Avoid configurations which offer increased I/O performance at the cost of redundancy (e.g. RAID 0), as these do not provide any benefit for video surveillance.

If all you need is additional storage capacity, consider keeping each drive as its own separate volume, and configuring specific cameras in Blue Iris to record to specific drives. This way, if you lose a drive, you only lose video from some of the cameras, and still have an uninterrupted archive of video from the other cameras. Compare this to a spanned array of disks, where the loss of one drive means losing a large chunk of time from all cameras.
 

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Very few products are able to run every feature at max value. There is always a compromise.

Running a camera at every rated spec can cause other issues and impact image quality.

Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of an option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.

Or growing up and my parents are driving on the highway up a steep grade, in the summer we would hit the turbo button (turn off the AC LOL) on our little 4 cylinder so that we could stay the speed limit going up the hill. Same thing running a camera at rated spec.

1681473783997.png


Look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite or despite the proper shutter speed they can't get a good freeze frame picture and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...

Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.

In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU or cut bitrate or be slow to detect an object, etc, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.

Sure 30 or 60FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable. My neighbor runs his at 60FPS, so the person or car goes by looking smooth, but it is a blur when trying to freeze frame it because the camera can't keep up with his other settings.. Meanwhile my camera at 15FPS with the proper shutter speed gets the clean shots.


So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.

Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.

This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.

1669132511834.png


At the end of the day, if the consumer wants cameras that can do 30FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.

And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.

And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature...

We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that, so more FPS isn't needed and is simply a waste of storage space and potentially causing something to be missed while the camera CPU is maxing out.


Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS


Thanks for the insight. It sounds like the camera itself is the problem here (or, maybe more accurately, its marketing...) and I'll just need to temper my expectations on framerate. Definitely a bummer... @EMPIRETECANDY do you agree the camera's hardware is going to stumble at 4k30FPS?
From the wiki:

RAID is not usually recommended, as most of what a video surveillance system records is worthless. If you wish for your system to be protected from disk failure, use a RAID type which offers redundant storage, such as RAID 1, 5, 6, or 10. Avoid configurations which offer increased I/O performance at the cost of redundancy (e.g. RAID 0), as these do not provide any benefit for video surveillance.

If all you need is additional storage capacity, consider keeping each drive as its own separate volume, and configuring specific cameras in Blue Iris to record to specific drives. This way, if you lose a drive, you only lose video from some of the cameras, and still have an uninterrupted archive of video from the other cameras. Compare this to a spanned array of disks, where the loss of one drive means losing a large chunk of time from all cameras.
Yep, i'm running RAID1 which appears to be endorsed by the wiki.
 

fenderman

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Thanks for the insight. It sounds like the camera itself is the problem here (or, maybe more accurately, its marketing...) and I'll just need to temper my expectations on framerate. Definitely a bummer... @EMPIRETECANDY do you agree the camera's hardware is going to stumble at 4k30FPS?

Yep, i'm running RAID1 which appears to be endorsed by the wiki.
Have you recorded to SD card and downloaded the video? That is how you can confirm it is not a network/pc issue. Have you disabled anti-virus for blue iris and its stored folders? You have also not posted your settings - screenshots. That camera can easily record smooth footage at 30fps.
 

wittaj

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I think you need to temper your expectations for real world applications LOL. Remember the intended use of these things. We are not making Hollywood movies. Shutter speed is more important than FPS.

The camera is certainly capable of 30FPS in the right setting and field of view as our resident tester (who gets under the hood and looks at the firmware and what not) tests them at 30FPS. But he wasn't using BI and I don't think was using any IVS or motion detection. Every time you add something to the mix - pulling a video stream, using multiple IVS, etc. uses processor power that just like you don't want your computer running at 100% CPU, same with the camera CPU.

But his field of view is a person and not a moving car at a distance like yours is. I suspect part of the stumble in your first one with the vehicle was H265 coding and it probably was macroblocking out that far (edges of the field of view). So when you switched to H264 and then also lowered the FPS it got smoother.

Worlds First Review - Dahua DH-IPC-HDW5849H-ASE-LED / IPC-Color4K-T - 2.8mm Turret


What drive were you saving to - an SSD or HDD rated for surveillance?

Is BI and associated drives excluded from antivirus software?

Like I said previously, put in a quality SD card and see if it stutters at 30FPS - if it doesn't, then you know it is an issue with getting the video thru your devices to BI or BI itself.

Does it stutter if you are watching it live in the camera GUI in a web browser - if it doesn't, then as above it is an issue with getting the video thru your devices to BI or BI itself.

Is your camera going thru the router or is it isolated via VLAN or dual NIC - going thru the router can cause issues as well.

I just tested mine at 30FPS as I run BI and mine was fine. But again, doesn't mean I will run it at that. I prefer to keep things running under or approaching max loading.
 

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Have you recorded to SD card and downloaded the video? That is how you can confirm it is not a network/pc issue. Have you disabled anti-virus for blue iris and its stored folders? You have also not posted your settings - screenshots. That camera can easily record smooth footage at 30fps.
thanks for the response. Some answers below…
remember the intended use of these things. We are not making Hollywood movies
i appreciate your input and want to work toward a solution. I think it’s clear I know I’m not making a Hollywood movie, and my expectations are honestly not unreasonable as others and even yourself have even said this camera is fully capable of 4k30. it’s obvious you’re an experienced member here so I value your input and hope we can move on from the unreasonable ‘Hollywood‘ expectations bit
What drive were you saving to - an SSD or HDD rated for surveillance?
my BI database is on a pcie gen 4.0x4 nvme ssd and I’m recording to a raid1 array of two seagate Skyhawk surveillance drives.
Is BI and associated drives excluded from antivirus software?
i have no antivirus software other than windows defender. I have not made any changes to windows defender defaults. Please share if there are specific considerations for windows defender.
put in a quality SD card
I will have an opportunity to test this next week and will provide updates with results.
Is your camera going thru the router or is it isolated via VLAN
It’s on a dedicated VLAN.

The camera is not doing anything on-device except encoding. No IVF, motion detection etc. Thats all handled in BI. And my CPU does not break a sweat for any of the motion detection or even AI processing (which I disabled for testing and troubleshooting).

thanks for the continued discussion
 

wittaj

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You need to exclude BI folders and video folders from Defender. That could certainly cause it.

Yeah I was on the 30FPS as a NOOB once too LOL. And then watching how fast storage was disappearing and that I only needed the ability to get the clean capture of a perp, I optimized my system towards that goal.
 
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