smoothie
Pulling my weight
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2015
- Messages
- 223
- Reaction score
- 178
Hi All,
I would like to hear people's thoughts and opinions on cameras and overall system choices I am looking at implementing. I have been lurking on the boards for a few months and frankly the choices are still quite dizzying.
Please excuse the length of this post but I wanted to try to give as succinct and accurate a scenario with as much detail as I could think of. I wanted to avoid the usual post of "What cameras should I buy?". I have tried to put as much thought and planning into my implementation before posting to these boards and I have tried to give each of you all the information you might need to answer my questions. If I am making false statements or expressing the desire for what you might consider a poor choice or a bad decision please feel free to correct me. I know less than most of you which is why I am asking for your help, so if I am making an obvious error it is likely because I don't know I am making it.
This is to replace an old D1 resolution 8 camera Q-See system.
The cameras will all be external. They watch all entry points on the first floor of our property, both doors and windows.
I am budgeting $200-$350 per camera for the fixed units, and perhaps adding a couple of PTZ units in the $700-$800 range one day down the road. Ideally we would like 2 dedicated ALPR cameras in the future. I am also planning on adding a few IR illuminators as needed. This system will be installed over time as cash flow and time permits. Obviously less expensive is preferred but I am willing to pay for performance, features, and abilities.
I live in a residential suburb in Los Angeles so snow is certainly not an issue and rain isn't much of one either, but heat could be (triple digit summers are common).
The goal of this system has been giving me some trouble to define clearly but I will try to convey the "Greatest Hits" of what we are after.
Immediate Goals of the new system:
1) Replace all 8 of the current cameras with new IP based higher resolution units.
2) Add around 4 additional cameras to bring coverage to blind spots surrounding the property that have no entry points but we would like to see.
3) Have remote viewing on Apple iOS devices while away from the property. Remote access security is important to me. I would prefer a setup that is resistant to external penetration. Eventually I would like to put in a VPN so that the cameras/NVR/PC isn't exposed directly to the open Internet but I don't know how well this works with smart phones and tablets while away from the property.
Eventual Goals that I would like to implement on the overall system:
4) Add around 4 additional specialty cameras comprising 2 dedicated ALPR cameras and 2 PTZ cameras.
5) Add around 4 IR illuminators, 2 for the ALPR cameras, and 2 to simply illuminate the darker areas of our property.
6) Having audio recording on most, perhaps all, cameras. With either built in or external microphones.
7) Entry door we would really like 2 way communication, the ultimate would be two way communications via smart phone while away.
8) Auto tracking of the PTZ camera(s) of pedestrian traffic and automobile traffic.
9) There is a vacant house that I would like to point and zoom the PTZ camera at if a car pulls into the driveway to try to capture any activity there.
10) Have certain cameras send screen capture alerts to smart phones if they detect motion in certain areas of coverage. For example the gas meter and electrical boxes.
We would prefer the 9) alerts to be via a mechanism that causes an alert to pop up on the smart phone screen and make a sound, so more like a text message and less like an email message.
The current 8 cameras I am very happy with their placement and coverage and will simply be replacing them with updated cameras.
The two PTZ cameras would go on the NW and SW corners of our house, in the same locations as Cam8 and Cam6/Cam7 respectively. The 2 ALPR cameras are basically marked on the attachment, one faces North and the other faces West.
The two non-ALPR IR illuminators would be for the North side of our house where Cam2 is pointed and the corner across to the street to the West where Cam6 is pointed. Both of these areas are quite dark and ideally I would like to illuminate them if possible.
The North side of the house is 2 stories; the South side is 1 story. There are no doors or windows on the South side of the house. There is 1 door (to the garage) and one small window (the bathroom) on the North side of the house both of which are covered by the view of Cam2. The house has eaves on all sides that extend around 1.5'. The exterior surface is stucco. The West side of my house (we call it the front of the house) sadly isn't a straight line as is shown on the attachment and instead has a step shape, I highlighted a more accurate depiction in the attachment. So a single PTZ cannot see the full 270 degree arc that the graphic implies it could, hence the desire for 2 PTZ cameras.
The attached diagram shows our home and the surrounding layout with some basic annotations to help give people a visual of what I am talking about. I have also attached 8 tiny images of what my current cameras see, they are labelled Cam1-Cam8. Their locations are noted on the main attachment with their call outs being a close approximation of the direction each camera actually points.
I am drawn to the Dahua brand of cameras, mostly thanks to Carl at Network Camera Critic (may he rest in peace), but I am not against other brands as ultimately I would like to accomplish the following with whatever cameras will do it "best" within my budget:
A) To be able to determine license plates parked next to my home on the street, this would range from 15' to 40' from the cameras with around 4mm lenses. I know that I probably can't read plates at the far distances with those lenses but as close as possible is fine. Eventually this would be solved with the ALPR setup but that is down the road, if ever.
B) To be able to identify people walking on the sidewalk and on the far side of parked cars around my home. The distances are comparable to A) but a few feet closer for the sidewalk and a few feet further for the far side of parked cars.
C) Be able to clearly see if a person is on my property at night by eliminating dark areas with illumination and increased resolution so people don't fade at distances of around 40'.
D) Be able to identify people on my property at night given the distances enumerated in A). Again this is an "as close as I can get it" situation.
E) I would like to control the PTZ camera(s) with a joystick while at home at my desk. Have the system eventually be able to auto track while I am out or asleep.
I would generally prefer covert to overt. Ideally if the camera bodies were darker in color that would be my aesthetic preference, or if they could be painted without peeling and looking terrible. But function trumps form when it comes to the cameras ultimately so if the cameras best suited to my needs are brilliant white so be it.
I am unclear if I should go with dedicated PC running Windows/Linux with NVR software(s) such as Milestone Xprotect, Blue Iris, and/or iSpy. A dedicated NVR, likely it would be Dahua brand as those are the cameras I seem to like and matching camera and NVR brands seems like a good idea. Or some combination there of. Presently I am leaning towards a dedicated PC with NVR software(s) installed, if for no other reason than I have i7 workstations circa 2012 at my disposal readily to help keep costs down at least initially. I am a Network Technician by trade so the networking, computer(s), wiring, switches, PoE, NAS, etc is all very familiar to me. My knowledge comes up short when dealing with security camera specific hardware and software such as dedicated NVRs, Blue Iris vs. Xprotect, auto tracking implementations for PTZ, best practices for setup and operation, etc.
The cameras that seem to strike the right balance between resolution, cost, night time performance and implementation flexibility are the Dahua IPC-HFW5421E-Z. This is a 4mp, 1/3" sensor, 20fps, 2.7mm-12mm varifocal, PoE bullet camera (for those of you unfamiliar with this specific camera). US vendors seem to price this unit in the $300 to $400 range but as low as $190 on Aliexpress. I would prefer 30fps over 20fps simply because I find fluid motion to be more pleasing to the eye. I am hoping losing those 10fps will not reduce the functionality too much. Worst case I might run these cameras at 3mp and 30fps, but I am under the impression that for my implementation higher resolution would benefit me more than higher frame rates.
The PTZ model that caught my eye is the Dahua SD59430U-HN. This is a 30x optical, 4mp, 1/3" sensor, 30fps, PoE, PTZ (for those of you unfamiliar with this specific camera). US vendors seem to price this unit in the $800-$900 range but as low as $600-$700 on Aliexpress.
For the ALPR setup I do not have a specific model in mind as yet, I would think in the 720p to 1080p range of box camera with CS lens mount, but I need to do more research and calculations to find the right combination for my specific implementation parameters.
Having never bought anything from Aliexpress in the past and knowing it is essentially the Wild West I am hesitant to do so without further research on these boards to find which "stores" have worked well for braver people than me. I am happy to buy from any place that has the highest likelihood that what I order isn't a knockoff but genuine and works properly when I receive it.
I know that Dahua vs. Hikvision vs. etc is a hotly debated topic across these boards and the Internet as a whole so I am not looking to settle this debate, instead I would like your thoughts and experiences on why I should get the cameras I listed or another model or brand instead. Likewise would the PC vs. NVR situation have a clear winner for me given what I am hoping to implement in both the short and long terms.
I generally lean towards bullet style cameras as they seem to have the most flexible installation options and are less likely to suffer from reflections as dome cameras seem to be. I am not concerned with camera vandalism as of yet but the cameras I have now are quite subtle so perhaps I have just been lucky. I am curious about cameras that are called EXIR, it would seem to mean something like EXternal InfraRed, because as I understand it EXIR cameras seem to have separate discrete lenses and IR emitters. Is the general consensus that EXIR cameras are superior to bullet style cameras?. I am not attached to any specific style of camera body so I am open to the idea of EXIR, assuming I am understanding the meaning of it correctly, bullets and perhaps even domes. I have never owned a dome camera so I could well be judging them unjustly, but it seems to me that if vandalism or unwanted manipulation of the cameras isn't a concern then bullets are better than domes if for no other reason than the possibility of reflections.
Ultimately since I am not yet invested into any hardware, vendor, brand, or implementation I thought I would like to try to do it as "right" as possible from the start and avoid the common pitfalls and mistakes I might otherwise make.
Thank you all for taking the time to read this lengthy post, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
I would like to hear people's thoughts and opinions on cameras and overall system choices I am looking at implementing. I have been lurking on the boards for a few months and frankly the choices are still quite dizzying.
Please excuse the length of this post but I wanted to try to give as succinct and accurate a scenario with as much detail as I could think of. I wanted to avoid the usual post of "What cameras should I buy?". I have tried to put as much thought and planning into my implementation before posting to these boards and I have tried to give each of you all the information you might need to answer my questions. If I am making false statements or expressing the desire for what you might consider a poor choice or a bad decision please feel free to correct me. I know less than most of you which is why I am asking for your help, so if I am making an obvious error it is likely because I don't know I am making it.
This is to replace an old D1 resolution 8 camera Q-See system.
The cameras will all be external. They watch all entry points on the first floor of our property, both doors and windows.
I am budgeting $200-$350 per camera for the fixed units, and perhaps adding a couple of PTZ units in the $700-$800 range one day down the road. Ideally we would like 2 dedicated ALPR cameras in the future. I am also planning on adding a few IR illuminators as needed. This system will be installed over time as cash flow and time permits. Obviously less expensive is preferred but I am willing to pay for performance, features, and abilities.
I live in a residential suburb in Los Angeles so snow is certainly not an issue and rain isn't much of one either, but heat could be (triple digit summers are common).
The goal of this system has been giving me some trouble to define clearly but I will try to convey the "Greatest Hits" of what we are after.
Immediate Goals of the new system:
1) Replace all 8 of the current cameras with new IP based higher resolution units.
2) Add around 4 additional cameras to bring coverage to blind spots surrounding the property that have no entry points but we would like to see.
3) Have remote viewing on Apple iOS devices while away from the property. Remote access security is important to me. I would prefer a setup that is resistant to external penetration. Eventually I would like to put in a VPN so that the cameras/NVR/PC isn't exposed directly to the open Internet but I don't know how well this works with smart phones and tablets while away from the property.
Eventual Goals that I would like to implement on the overall system:
4) Add around 4 additional specialty cameras comprising 2 dedicated ALPR cameras and 2 PTZ cameras.
5) Add around 4 IR illuminators, 2 for the ALPR cameras, and 2 to simply illuminate the darker areas of our property.
6) Having audio recording on most, perhaps all, cameras. With either built in or external microphones.
7) Entry door we would really like 2 way communication, the ultimate would be two way communications via smart phone while away.
8) Auto tracking of the PTZ camera(s) of pedestrian traffic and automobile traffic.
9) There is a vacant house that I would like to point and zoom the PTZ camera at if a car pulls into the driveway to try to capture any activity there.
10) Have certain cameras send screen capture alerts to smart phones if they detect motion in certain areas of coverage. For example the gas meter and electrical boxes.
We would prefer the 9) alerts to be via a mechanism that causes an alert to pop up on the smart phone screen and make a sound, so more like a text message and less like an email message.
The current 8 cameras I am very happy with their placement and coverage and will simply be replacing them with updated cameras.
The two PTZ cameras would go on the NW and SW corners of our house, in the same locations as Cam8 and Cam6/Cam7 respectively. The 2 ALPR cameras are basically marked on the attachment, one faces North and the other faces West.
The two non-ALPR IR illuminators would be for the North side of our house where Cam2 is pointed and the corner across to the street to the West where Cam6 is pointed. Both of these areas are quite dark and ideally I would like to illuminate them if possible.
The North side of the house is 2 stories; the South side is 1 story. There are no doors or windows on the South side of the house. There is 1 door (to the garage) and one small window (the bathroom) on the North side of the house both of which are covered by the view of Cam2. The house has eaves on all sides that extend around 1.5'. The exterior surface is stucco. The West side of my house (we call it the front of the house) sadly isn't a straight line as is shown on the attachment and instead has a step shape, I highlighted a more accurate depiction in the attachment. So a single PTZ cannot see the full 270 degree arc that the graphic implies it could, hence the desire for 2 PTZ cameras.
The attached diagram shows our home and the surrounding layout with some basic annotations to help give people a visual of what I am talking about. I have also attached 8 tiny images of what my current cameras see, they are labelled Cam1-Cam8. Their locations are noted on the main attachment with their call outs being a close approximation of the direction each camera actually points.
I am drawn to the Dahua brand of cameras, mostly thanks to Carl at Network Camera Critic (may he rest in peace), but I am not against other brands as ultimately I would like to accomplish the following with whatever cameras will do it "best" within my budget:
A) To be able to determine license plates parked next to my home on the street, this would range from 15' to 40' from the cameras with around 4mm lenses. I know that I probably can't read plates at the far distances with those lenses but as close as possible is fine. Eventually this would be solved with the ALPR setup but that is down the road, if ever.
B) To be able to identify people walking on the sidewalk and on the far side of parked cars around my home. The distances are comparable to A) but a few feet closer for the sidewalk and a few feet further for the far side of parked cars.
C) Be able to clearly see if a person is on my property at night by eliminating dark areas with illumination and increased resolution so people don't fade at distances of around 40'.
D) Be able to identify people on my property at night given the distances enumerated in A). Again this is an "as close as I can get it" situation.
E) I would like to control the PTZ camera(s) with a joystick while at home at my desk. Have the system eventually be able to auto track while I am out or asleep.
I would generally prefer covert to overt. Ideally if the camera bodies were darker in color that would be my aesthetic preference, or if they could be painted without peeling and looking terrible. But function trumps form when it comes to the cameras ultimately so if the cameras best suited to my needs are brilliant white so be it.
I am unclear if I should go with dedicated PC running Windows/Linux with NVR software(s) such as Milestone Xprotect, Blue Iris, and/or iSpy. A dedicated NVR, likely it would be Dahua brand as those are the cameras I seem to like and matching camera and NVR brands seems like a good idea. Or some combination there of. Presently I am leaning towards a dedicated PC with NVR software(s) installed, if for no other reason than I have i7 workstations circa 2012 at my disposal readily to help keep costs down at least initially. I am a Network Technician by trade so the networking, computer(s), wiring, switches, PoE, NAS, etc is all very familiar to me. My knowledge comes up short when dealing with security camera specific hardware and software such as dedicated NVRs, Blue Iris vs. Xprotect, auto tracking implementations for PTZ, best practices for setup and operation, etc.
The cameras that seem to strike the right balance between resolution, cost, night time performance and implementation flexibility are the Dahua IPC-HFW5421E-Z. This is a 4mp, 1/3" sensor, 20fps, 2.7mm-12mm varifocal, PoE bullet camera (for those of you unfamiliar with this specific camera). US vendors seem to price this unit in the $300 to $400 range but as low as $190 on Aliexpress. I would prefer 30fps over 20fps simply because I find fluid motion to be more pleasing to the eye. I am hoping losing those 10fps will not reduce the functionality too much. Worst case I might run these cameras at 3mp and 30fps, but I am under the impression that for my implementation higher resolution would benefit me more than higher frame rates.
The PTZ model that caught my eye is the Dahua SD59430U-HN. This is a 30x optical, 4mp, 1/3" sensor, 30fps, PoE, PTZ (for those of you unfamiliar with this specific camera). US vendors seem to price this unit in the $800-$900 range but as low as $600-$700 on Aliexpress.
For the ALPR setup I do not have a specific model in mind as yet, I would think in the 720p to 1080p range of box camera with CS lens mount, but I need to do more research and calculations to find the right combination for my specific implementation parameters.
Having never bought anything from Aliexpress in the past and knowing it is essentially the Wild West I am hesitant to do so without further research on these boards to find which "stores" have worked well for braver people than me. I am happy to buy from any place that has the highest likelihood that what I order isn't a knockoff but genuine and works properly when I receive it.
I know that Dahua vs. Hikvision vs. etc is a hotly debated topic across these boards and the Internet as a whole so I am not looking to settle this debate, instead I would like your thoughts and experiences on why I should get the cameras I listed or another model or brand instead. Likewise would the PC vs. NVR situation have a clear winner for me given what I am hoping to implement in both the short and long terms.
I generally lean towards bullet style cameras as they seem to have the most flexible installation options and are less likely to suffer from reflections as dome cameras seem to be. I am not concerned with camera vandalism as of yet but the cameras I have now are quite subtle so perhaps I have just been lucky. I am curious about cameras that are called EXIR, it would seem to mean something like EXternal InfraRed, because as I understand it EXIR cameras seem to have separate discrete lenses and IR emitters. Is the general consensus that EXIR cameras are superior to bullet style cameras?. I am not attached to any specific style of camera body so I am open to the idea of EXIR, assuming I am understanding the meaning of it correctly, bullets and perhaps even domes. I have never owned a dome camera so I could well be judging them unjustly, but it seems to me that if vandalism or unwanted manipulation of the cameras isn't a concern then bullets are better than domes if for no other reason than the possibility of reflections.
Ultimately since I am not yet invested into any hardware, vendor, brand, or implementation I thought I would like to try to do it as "right" as possible from the start and avoid the common pitfalls and mistakes I might otherwise make.
Thank you all for taking the time to read this lengthy post, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
