Help in Choosing NVR/Cameras

[Guthdog]

Hello all,

I have been lurking on this forum for a week or so trying to understand IP camera systems in general.

I own a property management business with two offices. We just had an issue where one employee accused another employee of theft, (to management, not directly), and my interest in security systems was magically renewed...

I figure I need about 9 cameras to provide relatively thorough coverage in the public spaces in my office.

My security alarm vendor offered to install a system with an NVR and four cameras: $950 + $65/month. After looking at what is available on the market, I figured I better start looking to specify something.

My first pass was the Costco Q-See package: http://www.costco.com/Q-See-16-Channel-HD-NVR-Security-System-with-3TB-HDD-and-9-3MP-HD-IP-Cameras.product.100123648.html - Seems like a good deal. All PoE/IP with bullet cameras, but I can never just buy what's simple, (people gripe about the UI on the Q-See as well, don't have an opinion as to whether it's justified or not).

Surfing around here researching, I found postings by/about Network Camera Critic and saw numerous folks posting about Nelly's. Huge resources.

The folks an Nelly's were outstanding and recommended a Hikvision 7716 with the onboard POE switch. I liked what I read about the manufacturer, (responsive UI and a broad range of cameras that work well), and everyone seems positive about Nelly's service and support.

The downside is that I read that the NVR's with PoE on board tend to be loud because of the requisite fans. My plan was to install the NVR in the office manager's office with an inexpensive 32" monitor to watch what's going on outside and we would still have the option to bring the video up over the network, (inside or outside the LAN). If the 7716 is loud though, I don't want to increase the stress on that manager, (especially since the manager in that office is usually my wife:sentimental.

I expressed my concern to the folks an Nelly's and they recommended a, (roughly equivalent), EyeSurv, (Dahua?) 5216 that has only one LAN port. The backplane specs are great, (160Mbps), it can take a couple less HDD's, (2x4TB WD Purple drives though, I'm not sure that I am that concerned), but I don't know how much quieter it is than the Hikvision, and I've read complaints about the UI being slow. Nelly's has fewer EyeSurv/Dahua cameras in their selection than Hikvision as well.

I should probably mention that I already have a PoE infrastructure to support my IP phone system, and I have a technically solid IT consultant who can easily set the video up on it's own subnet.

Sooooo...

Any thoughts on the above?

I really want reliability, and responsiveness in the UI so it is easy to use once installed.

As much as I can really get into geeking out with technology, (I am a refugee from the telecom sector), I don't get paid to do that anymore, I'm a property manager/salesman. I want low prices, (who doesn't), but I'm not sure if I want to risk buying from Chinese vendors and flashing to new firmware.

I really, really, really don't want to add any stress to my wife's environment by increasing the noise level in her office. If momma' ain't happy, ain't nobody happy...an additional 10 FE connections terminated in her office would be harder to hide than a single one as well.

I think I want to stay with one vendor, (all Dahua or all Hikvision), to maximize the likelihood of everything FULLY working together. I think I understand "Onvif", but I frequently read where this or that feature doesn't work between vendors.

If anyone is recommending the Hikvision 7716 WITHOUT the POE switch, where can I find it?

Sorry for the long first post, but I might as well impose early and often. Totally open to being corrected about my assumptions and design ideas as well.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[fenderman]

Nelly's is a great supplier..if they dont have the model you want member @milkisbad can get you LTS (rebranded hikvision) with a 3 year warranty and US based...
This is a great fanless 8 port (all poe, but you need one to connect to the network so its really 7 poe)..http://www.amazon.com/Fanless-Managed-Desktop-Switch-GS1900-8HP/dp/B00GU1KULM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415119818&sr=8-1&keywords=zyxel+poe
You may not even need an nvr if you use the hikvision vms software on a pc....up to u....

 

[bp2008]

Looks like you have really done your homework. If I might make a suggestion, buy small cameras if they are going indoors. The Q-See kit looked like it included relatively large cameras. Indoors, bullet cams are probably not the best option either. DS-2CD2532F-IS and DS-2CD2432F-I are good choices for indoors, and they both have audio options (make sure audio recording is legal in your area though).

If you have flat ceilings on which to mount the cameras, the 2132 is a fairly decent choice, and it is currently on sale at nelly's for $109.99 each, starting this morning.

For PoE, this is the cheapest cost per PoE port that I know of, and it is a good switch. I never had any problems with any of mine: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003CFATT2

Note they only have 4 PoE ports per switch and they are only 10/100, but unlike a typical 8-PoE-port switch you don't have to sacrifice one PoE port for the uplink. If you want to have all your network switches in the same place, it is best to go for a more expensive model that has more ports, so you can keep things tidy. But if you are going to spread out the switches so you can use shorter cables for each camera, then these switches are hard to beat.

 

[Guthdog]

Nelly's is a great supplier..if they dont have the model you want member @milkisbad can get you LTS (rebranded hikvision) with a 3 year warranty and US based...
This is a great fanless 8 port (all poe, but you need one to connect to the network so its really 7 poe)..http://www.amazon.com/Fanless-Managed-Desktop-Switch-GS1900-8HP/dp/B00GU1KULM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415119818&sr=8-1&keywords=zyxel+poe
You may not even need an nvr if you use the hikvision vms software on a pc....up to u....

Is the Hikvision VMS software a complete OS, or is it an application that rides on Windows? I would rather have a dedicated machine, given a choice.

 

[fenderman]

it runs on windows...like an nvr it uses in camera motion detection....

 

[Guthdog]

Looks like you have really done your homework. If I might make a suggestion, buy small cameras if they are going indoors. The Q-See kit looked like it included relatively large cameras. Indoors, bullet cams are probably not the best option either. DS-2CD2532F-IS and DS-2CD2432F-I are good choices for indoors, and they both have audio options (make sure audio recording is legal in your area though).

If you have flat ceilings on which to mount the cameras, the 2132 is a fairly decent choice, and it is currently on sale at nelly's for $109.99 each, starting this morning.

For PoE, this is the cheapest cost per PoE port that I know of, and it is a good switch. I never had any problems with any of mine: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003CFATT2

Note they only have 4 PoE ports per switch and they are only 10/100, but unlike a typical 8-PoE-port switch you don't have to sacrifice one PoE port for the uplink. If you want to have all your network switches in the same place, it is best to go for a more expensive model that has more ports, so you can keep things tidy. But if you are going to spread out the switches so you can use shorter cables for each camera, then these switches are hard to beat.

What is your opinion of "Turret/Eyeball" style cameras? Network Camera Critic made a very compelling case for the ease of installation as long as they were 3-axis style, (another reason to like the HikVision line, they have a lot of choices for the turrets, at least on Nelly's). Can't remember if any of them are Vari-Focus, but that seems like a really good idea as well.

Am I giving anything up using a turret over a dome or bullet in terms of performance?

I have flat, drop ceilings.

I think I have enough PoE ports in my existing switching infrastructure to power the cameras.

 

[Guthdog]

Nelly's is a great supplier..if they dont have the model you want member @milkisbad can get you LTS (rebranded hikvision) with a 3 year warranty and US based...
This is a great fanless 8 port (all poe, but you need one to connect to the network so its really 7 poe)..http://www.amazon.com/Fanless-Managed-Desktop-Switch-GS1900-8HP/dp/B00GU1KULM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415119818&sr=8-1&keywords=zyxel+poe
You may not even need an nvr if you use the hikvision vms software on a pc....up to u....

Can we count on the UI to be just as good, (or bad), on a given NVR if it's rebranded, (Hikvision/LTS, Dahua/EyeSurv)?

 

[Guthdog]

Is the Hikvision VMS software a complete OS, or is it an application that rides on Windows? I would rather have a dedicated machine, given a choice.

Does VMS have all the same settings/features as the dedicated NVR? I have loads of old PC's hanging around that would work in that capacity. Win 7 64 has been very reliable in my office.

 

[Guthdog]

Does anyone have an opinion between Dahua and Hikvision in general? Is that like bringing up religion or politics in polite company?

It is election day...

 

[fenderman]

I havent used vms, but my understanding is that it can do all an NVR can do, maybe more...You dont want to use an old pc for an NVR...most older pc's were power hogs and you still need some level of power for ivms...there are some threads on this in the forum...hopefully someone with my direct experience can comment on it..
I personally use blue iris, but it will require as 4th generation i7 if you will be running 8 3mp cams.

 

[Guthdog]

I havent used vms, but my understanding is that it can do all an NVR can do, maybe more...You dont want to use an old pc for an NVR...most older pc's were power hogs and you still need some level of power for ivms...there are some threads on this in the forum...hopefully someone with my direct experience can comment on it..
I personally use blue iris, but it will require as 4th generation i7 if you will be running 8 3mp cams.

I seriously have to resist the temptation to Roll My Own with Blue Iris. I have a Linux based phone system and ran a Smoothwall firewall in my home for about 6 years. Up time has been terrific, but my nature is to get into the weeds a try to learn how to do things when I should be buying something that works well and can be rolled out and, (mostly), left alone. I did the firewall because I was a sales engineer for data networks at the time so I could justify it as "training" and I was familiar with most of the functions and terminology of a firewall/router due to my job.

I really shouldn't get involved in specifying and building a Blue Iris server. But I'd like to...

 

[Guthdog]

I havent used vms, but my understanding is that it can do all an NVR can do, maybe more...You dont want to use an old pc for an NVR...most older pc's were power hogs and you still need some level of power for ivms...there are some threads on this in the forum...hopefully someone with my direct experience can comment on it..
I personally use blue iris, but it will require as 4th generation i7 if you will be running 8 3mp cams.

To clarify, the VMS of which you speak is this one: http://www.hikvision.com/UploadFile/image/2012120106044654056.pdf, correct?

 

[fenderman]

Blue iris is really exceptional...tons of features, like arming and disarming alerts from the mobile app, plus it has its own built in webserver...the downside is that it uses lots of cpu, this is because it does its own motion detection and does not rely on the cameras detection. This allows you to have various levels of detection for alerts vs recording...or change the level at night (you can even tie the change to sunrise sunset...With 8 cams you will need an i7-4770....I use refurbished dell or hp business systems for all my installs. You can get an i7-4770 optiplex refurb for about 500 when they are on sale...you cannot build it for less and it includes a 3 year next business day warranty. Do not get a discreet graphics card. Intel HD is great and low on power consumption and heat.

There is also the consideration of power consumption...It will be significantly more than an NVR...that is why getting the most efficient processor is important. just installed an 8 camera build with an i7-4770 and i will the consumption when i get to the location next.

 

[fenderman]

To clarify, the VMS of which you speak is this one: http://www.hikvision.com/UploadFile/image/2012120106044654056.pdf, correct?

that is correct

 

[Guthdog]

Blue iris is really exceptional...tons of features, like arming and disarming alerts from the mobile app, plus it has its own built in webserver...the downside is that it uses lots of cpu, this is because it does its own motion detection and does not rely on the cameras detection. This allows you to have various levels of detection for alerts vs recording...or change the level at night (you can even tie the change to sunrise sunset...With 8 cams you will need an i7-4770....I use refurbished dell or hp business systems for all my installs. You can get an i7-4770 optiplex refurb for about 500 when they are on sale...you cannot build it for less and it includes a 3 year next business day warranty. Do not get a discreet graphics card. Intel HD is great and low on power consumption and heat.

There is also the consideration of power consumption...It will be significantly more than an NVR...that is why getting the most efficient processor is important. just installed an 8 camera build with an i7-4770 and i will the consumption when i get to the location next.

<<Sigh>>OK, I'm interested...Is Blue Iris a Windows based application or is it a Linux build?

 

[bp2008]

Blue Iris is for Windows only. No Linux build.

 

[Guthdog]

OK, that at least shorten's the learning curve in terms of downloading tar balls or whatever...

So does anyone bother with doing any sort of mirroring on the drives? Does the OS ride on a separate drive so we can keep the video captures discreet?

 

[bp2008]

I have my OS and Blue Iris running on an SSD. The SSD also has Blue Iris's database. But recordings go to a 3TB hard drive and get immediately backed up to a D-Link MyCloud drive via FTP.

I used to record to a very poor performing RAID 5 array, but when one of the drives failed I moved all my important data off (all except one file which was lost due to an unrecoverable read error), and I will never build another RAID 5 again.

 

[Guthdog]

I have my OS and Blue Iris running on an SSD. The SSD also has Blue Iris's database. But recordings go to a 3TB hard drive and get immediately backed up to a D-Link MyCloud drive via FTP.

I used to record to a very poor performing RAID 5 array, but when one of the drives failed I moved all my important data off (all except one file which was lost due to an unrecoverable read error), and I will never build another RAID 5 again.

So I was reading your post at cam-it about your initial build with the BI and the 4770 processor. You mentioned that if you tried high frame rates and motion detected cameras that the processor would explode. Why is that? Is it because motion detection is constantly turning on and off or some other reason?

 

[bp2008]

LOL. It is mostly the frame rates. It takes Blue Iris a lot of CPU time to decode the video when the frame rate is high.