Hello Everyone, new member from New York

N

NM4D

n3wb
Nov 27, 2017
9
2
Hi Everyone,

I was referred here by another member on this forum where he had provided me with some great information.

Recently, there were some new neighbors that moved in and had been throwing trash all over the place. A friend recommended to install some cameras in front of the house to catch them in the act. At first, I was looking at the Arlo Pros that has been on sale during the BF weekend, but realized that it need to be install closed to the object to get facial recognition. I was looking at some zmodo and annke brand but was told that are very basic and not so great. Newegg has the LaView NVR system on sale, but looks like it requires some drilling. Therefore, I am here to seek advise from the community to see my best option. I want something that I can DIY as to hiring a contractor. Also, don't want to break the bank as well. Any tips and advise will be much appreciated. Thank you.

Andrew

rowhouse.JPG
 
mat200 said:
Hi Andrew,

Good to see you here.

Those columns look really tight on the front of the house. How thick are they?

It's easy to get swamped with information here, so I wanted to share some notes with you

Please check out @giomania 's notes:
Dahua Starlight Varifocal Turret (IPC-HDW5231R-Z)

I have also made notes which are a summary of a lot of the reading I've been doing here,:
Looking for some advice and direction!

Have fun joining us here.
Click to expand...

Hi Mat,

Thanks! As for thickest, the house was gutted about 10 years ago and the walls are fairly think, the bricks I recall are about at least 4 inches wide and than we have the studs, installation and drywall. As far as drilling thru the mortar, I haven't try yet. I had an old bnc system that I ran thru the windows and drill holes on the windows frame to mount 2 of the cameras. Worst comes to worst, I just mount some arlos, but don't want them to start walking as well, I see a lot of tips on the forum to secure the Arlo if that's the route I go with.

If I was to install the Starlight, I was thinking of mounting on the top of the wooden door frame and run the wires right thru the wood to the inside and put a POE switch inside to power it right next to the door. Thanks for your help and the materials. I'll take a look at it and see if I can get some idea on my best option.

A
 
drunkpenguin said:
I would imagine thats gonna be a tough house to run cables.
Click to expand...

Hi drunkpenguin,

Yes. When the house was gutted 10 years ago, I had the contractor ran the entire house with cat6 cables where the entire inside of the house is wired. I never thought I would be installing a POE system thru the wall, otherwise, I would had them made a few holes thru the bricks. Thanks.

A
 
NM4D said:
Hi Mat,

Thanks! As for thickest, the house was gutted about 10 years ago and the walls are fairly think, the bricks I recall are about at least 4 inches wide and than we have the studs, installation and drywall. As far as drilling thru the mortar, I haven't try yet. I had an old bnc system that I ran thru the windows and drill holes on the windows frame to mount 2 of the cameras. Worst comes to worst, I just mount some arlos, but don't want them to start walking as well, I see a lot of tips on the forum to secure the Arlo if that's the route I go with.

If I was to install the Starlight, I was thinking of mounting on the top of the wooden door frame and run the wires right thru the wood to the inside and put a POE switch inside to power it right next to the door. Thanks for your help and the materials. I'll take a look at it and see if I can get some idea on my best option.

A
Click to expand...

Hi NM4D

I think you'd really like the starlight models.

Is the old coax wires good quality?

I'd really hate to see you go Arlo... they are very poor for security cameras.
 
mat200 said:
Hi NM4D

I think you'd really like the starlight models.

Is the old coax wires good quality?

I'd really hate to see you go Arlo... they are very poor for security cameras.
Click to expand...

Hi Mat,

Those are the BNC coax cables that came with the Zmodo. :) For the wires, with the windows open and shut, they are still holding up, as far as the camera goes, in daynight, they are ok but at night its very poor. As for facial recognition, that's out for both day and night.

Andrew
 
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NM4D said:
Hi Mat,

Those are the BNC coax cables that came with the Zmodo. :) For the wires, with the windows open and shut, they are still holding up, as far as the camera goes, in daynight, they are ok but at night its very poor. As for facial recognition, that's out for both day and night.

Andrew
Click to expand...

Hi Andrew,

OK, so they're not good quality coax wires, and you'd want to replace them.

Here's what I would suggest, 3 cameras.

1x in the blue at about 5 feet high from the foot of the door by the door pointing down to 5 feet high to the middle of the stairs.
A starlight turret or mini-dome wedge. IPC-HDW4231EM-AS or IPC-HDBW4231F-AS

2x cameras covering the street and walk way, perhaps 8 feet from the sidewalk level.
Starlight turret - IPC-HDW5231R-Z or IPC-HDW4231EM-AS

I would use quality cat5e cable - it is thinner than cat6, so should work better.

As you have a brick faced building you will probably need a junction box PFA137 for 5231 or PFA139 for 4231
You can also use a wall mount unit to mount the cameras. PFB203w iirc ( please double check that number )

The cameras listed above have microSD card slots so you can play with them without needing a nvr for now, also remember to test the suggested locations for the views and see if you can find better spots for them.

You probably have a few options for routing the wires, definitely install them in a way they would be protected. Perhaps even think about drilling a small hole through the window frame?
( cat5e, maybe a bit bigger than 1/4" ? ) Or through the mortar between the brick. Wondering which would be better...



ipcamtalk-suggested-nyc.png
 
mat200 said:
Hi Andrew,

OK, so they're not good quality coax wires, and you'd want to replace them.

Here's what I would suggest, 3 cameras.

1x in the blue at about 5 feet high from the foot of the door by the door pointing down to 5 feet high to the middle of the stairs.
A starlight turret or mini-dome wedge. IPC-HDW4231EM-AS or IPC-HDBW4231F-AS

2x cameras covering the street and walk way, perhaps 8 feet from the sidewalk level.
Starlight turret - IPC-HDW5231R-Z or IPC-HDW4231EM-AS

I would use quality cat5e cable - it is thinner than cat6, so should work better.

As you have a brick faced building you will probably need a junction box PFA137 for 5231 or PFA139 for 4231
You can also use a wall mount unit to mount the cameras. PFB203w iirc ( please double check that number )

The cameras listed above have microSD card slots so you can play with them without needing a nvr for now, also remember to test the suggested locations for the views and see if you can find better spots for them.

You probably have a few options for routing the wires, definitely install them in a way they would be protected. Perhaps even think about drilling a small hole through the window frame?
( cat5e, maybe a bit bigger than 1/4" ? ) Or through the mortar between the brick. Wondering which would be better...



View attachment 24066
Click to expand...

Hi Mat,

Thanks for the information. By mounting the cameras at that low, I am afraid that they can be easily damage by the perpetrators. The street is a 2 way street where there will be a lot of people walking around and there is a school which is few blocks away. If I mount them on top of the window frame area, I would say it will be about 10-12 feet above street level, wonder if It will still get facial recognition on these models. Have you seen on the forum where member reported that the cameras was vandalized? Thanks.

Andrew.
 
NM4D said:
Hi Mat,

Thanks for the information. By mounting the cameras at that low, I am afraid that they can be easily damage by the perpetrators. The street is a 2 way street where there will be a lot of people walking around and there is a school which is few blocks away. If I mount them on top of the window frame area, I would say it will be about 10-12 feet above street level, wonder if It will still get facial recognition on these models. Have you seen on the forum where member reported that the cameras was vandalized? Thanks.

Andrew.
Click to expand...

Hi Andrew,

If you use junction boxes and mount it where the wires come out and the suggested turret they will be very solid, vandal resistant.

The cases are metal and not easy to damage for these camera models.
 
Hi Mat,

Been up past 2 nights reading on all the great info on this forum. On one post, you mentioned you had an Dahua NVR, can you let me know which version it is?

Also, I read on another post where some users recommends IPC-HDW4431C-A or IPC-HDW4631C-A. What is your thoughts on these 2 models.

What do you think the best bang for the buck, if I just want to get 2 cameras now and either a NVR or a POE Switch?
Newegg currently has the Ubiquiti POE switch with 4 POE ports for $95.
If I go with the 2 camera, a POE switch, do I also need Blue IRIS software if I want to have it record 24/7?

Or should I better off just wait for another LaView deal like the one newegg had 2 weeks ago with 4 cameras and the nvr?

Thanks!

Andrew
 
NM4D said:
Hi Mat,

Been up past 2 nights reading on all the great info on this forum. On one post, you mentioned you had an Dahua NVR, can you let me know which version it is?

Also, I read on another post where some users recommends IPC-HDW4431C-A or IPC-HDW4631C-A. What is your thoughts on these 2 models.

What do you think the best bang for the buck, if I just want to get 2 cameras now and either a NVR or a POE Switch?
Newegg currently has the Ubiquiti POE switch with 4 POE ports for $95.
If I go with the 2 camera, a POE switch, do I also need Blue IRIS software if I want to have it record 24/7?

Or should I better off just wait for another LaView deal like the one newegg had 2 weeks ago with 4 cameras and the nvr?

Thanks!

Andrew
Click to expand...

Hi Andrew,

A) I have a Dahua NVR5216-16P-4KS2 - nice unit, if you get it remember to update firmware to fix some issues.

B) Both the IPC-HDW4431C-A or IPC-HDW4631C-A - are Chinese market cameras:

1) Which are made more affordable due to using plastic on the "base" and can be readjusted by hand vs the more expensive models which has both the "eye ball" case and "base" made out of metal and you need to unscrew the locking screw before readjusting the view. - thus this maybe an issue with regards to vandalism.

2) Their firmware will be more problematic to update - and there is the possibility that if you are able to update them you may not have access to the patch to re-enable English language on them, so if you plan to get these you should keep them always isolated them from the internet. ( I did read someplace that the 4431 is now supporting English from the factory.. you have to double check and be certain that is the case )

3) Also as Chinese market cameras they may have additional issues you need to be concerned with in terms of security - such as p2p communication.​

I opted not to get them as I needed top quality low light cameras, and wanted to spend less time on firmware update and security issues.

C) NVR or PoE switch?
There's a LOT of ways to do this.
1) NVR w/built in PoE ports.
2) NVR w/o PoE ports + separate PoE switch
3) WIndows PC w/Blue Iris + separate PoE switch
4) NAS + PoE switch
5) PoE switch + microSD cards in IP cameras
6) combinations of 1-5
7) other PSE + normal switch in place of PoE switch and 1-5​

I am doing #1, others here like #2, #3, .... this is the beauty of IP cameras - many options.

D) LaView kit deal - a lot of the kits are compromises, especially at the $300-400 w/o HDD budget.

Remember that ID distance list? You should look closely at that, and also look at what you wish to accomplish with a security camera system.

E) Ubiquiti 4 port PoE switch deal at Newegg - the switch provides a lot more than just PoE functionality - so you should take a closer look at what it provides and see if you need those features. If you only need PoE functionality there are more affordable options.

Also check out my notes from SDs. I think there's a number of good wired PoE options, the real question you need to ask is what is most important to you with regards to what the cameras need to do?

What do you want to accomplish with a security camera system?
  • Is the day time more of a threat? or night time? If night time look at the starlight models referenced here, if day time the 4K cameras work well. If a combination get both starlights and consider good 4K cameras.
  • See what happened?
  • Potentially ID suspects? Locate cameras less than 8 feet high and close enough to get a potential ID'able facial image. ( please see the ID distance list )
  • Help deter criminal activities? Mount your cameras in obvious locations.
  • Keep an eye on your car parked in your drive way? in the street?
  • Potentially ID cars which suspects maybe using?
  • Watch of other activities, wild animals, your dogs, your cats, birds,..
  • License plate captures? For successful license plate captures you may need to dedicate a camera to it as it requires camera tuning adjustments which makes the overall picture darker.
  • While you are thinking about these issues, you will need to look at potential camera installation locations and measure the distance to the potential suspect and determine if you are within the ID distance. You may need a camera with a better "zoom".
 
mat200 said:
Hi Andrew,

A) I have a Dahua NVR5216-16P-4KS2 - nice unit, if you get it remember to update firmware to fix some issues.

B) Both the IPC-HDW4431C-A or IPC-HDW4631C-A - are Chinese market cameras:

1) Which are made more affordable due to using plastic on the "base" and can be readjusted by hand vs the more expensive models which has both the "eye ball" case and "base" made out of metal and you need to unscrew the locking screw before readjusting the view. - thus this maybe an issue with regards to vandalism.

2) Their firmware will be more problematic to update - and there is the possibility that if you are able to update them you may not have access to the patch to re-enable English language on them, so if you plan to get these you should keep them always isolated them from the internet. ( I did read someplace that the 4431 is now supporting English from the factory.. you have to double check and be certain that is the case )

3) Also as Chinese market cameras they may have additional issues you need to be concerned with in terms of security - such as p2p communication.​

I opted not to get them as I needed top quality low light cameras, and wanted to spend less time on firmware update and security issues.

C) NVR or PoE switch?
There's a LOT of ways to do this.
1) NVR w/built in PoE ports.
2) NVR w/o PoE ports + separate PoE switch
3) WIndows PC w/Blue Iris + separate PoE switch
4) NAS + PoE switch
5) PoE switch + microSD cards in IP cameras
6) combinations of 1-5
7) other PSE + normal switch in place of PoE switch and 1-5​

I am doing #1, others here like #2, #3, .... this is the beauty of IP cameras - many options.

D) LaView kit deal - a lot of the kits are compromises, especially at the $300-400 w/o HDD budget.

Remember that ID distance list? You should look closely at that, and also look at what you wish to accomplish with a security camera system.

E) Ubiquiti 4 port PoE switch deal at Newegg - the switch provides a lot more than just PoE functionality - so you should take a closer look at what it provides and see if you need those features. If you only need PoE functionality there are more affordable options.

Also check out my notes from SDs. I think there's a number of good wired PoE options, the real question you need to ask is what is most important to you with regards to what the cameras need to do?

What do you want to accomplish with a security camera system?
  • Is the day time more of a threat? or night time? If night time look at the starlight models referenced here, if day time the 4K cameras work well. If a combination get both starlights and consider good 4K cameras.
  • See what happened?
  • Potentially ID suspects? Locate cameras less than 8 feet high and close enough to get a potential ID'able facial image. ( please see the ID distance list )
  • Help deter criminal activities? Mount your cameras in obvious locations.
  • Keep an eye on your car parked in your drive way? in the street?
  • Potentially ID cars which suspects maybe using?
  • Watch of other activities, wild animals, your dogs, your cats, birds,..
  • License plate captures? For successful license plate captures you may need to dedicate a camera to it as it requires camera tuning adjustments which makes the overall picture darker.
  • While you are thinking about these issues, you will need to look at potential camera installation locations and measure the distance to the potential suspect and determine if you are within the ID distance. You may need a camera with a better "zoom".
Click to expand...

Mat,

Thanks so much for the information. The NVR you have is in the $400 range by itself. :)
As for POE Switch and NAS, I do have a NAS. However, I am afraid about the Chinese market model that might be able to get hacked, last thing I want is for all my files in my NAS got compromised.

With Blue Iris, I will need to have a POE switch and a dedicated PC on 24/7 which will need some decents parts or it will wear out pretty fast.

I guess my best option will be the LaView system or wait for a Dahua 4 or 8 port NVR to go onsale ($120-$150?). As for the cameras, I will take your advise to get the Dahua starlight IPC-HDW4231EM-AS to go on sale. The price I am seeing on aliexpress is floating at $127-$130. Do these cameras general sale below $100? Thanks for all your help.

Andrew
 
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NM4D said:
Mat,

Thanks so much for the information. The NVR you have is in the $400 range by itself. :)
As for POE Switch and NAS, I do have a NAS. However, I am afraid about the Chinese market model that might be able to get hacked, last thing I want is for all my files in my NAS got compromised.

With Blue Iris, I will need to have a POE switch and a dedicated PC on 24/7 which will need some decents parts or it will wear out pretty fast.

I guess my best option will be the LaView system or wait for a Dahua 4 or 8 port NVR to go onsale ($120-$150?). As for the cameras, I will take your advise to get the Dahua starlight IPC-HDW4231EM-AS to go on sale. The price I am seeing on aliexpress is floating at $127-$130. Do these cameras general sale below $100? Thanks for all your help.

Andrew
Click to expand...

Hi Andrew,

The NVR I mention is an international model - so less issues compared to a Chinese market model.

Hacked threat - all of the IP cameras and NVRs / DVRs and numerous IoT products we see sold in the US market are also subject to getting hacked... Full OSes by Microsoft, Apple, and Linux are fairly good about very frequent updates, yet also subject to getting hacked. If you design your network more secure you can reduce the chances of hacks.

Right now I keep my IP cameras isolated from the internet. Easy. However that means no remote viewing. When I have more time I plan to put in a nicer firewall and VPN setup if I want to remote view.

Sales - so China has a very different idea of mark ups of products and sales.

On their big 11.11 day the % off was very very little compared to what we see here in the USA. That tells us that the day to day prices from Chinese vendors have LESS market up than US vendors - provided they have many independent vendors - which appears to be the case.

So you will not see a sale where that camera goes down that much.

That same camera in the USA will be about 1.5-2.5x the regular price you see.

Where to record: In terms of what is best for recording, that depends... some really like Blue Iris on a newer used windows i5/i7 PC. Which will be nice as you can keep the system up to the patch level that Microsoft recommends fairly easily.

As I mentioned a number of options.

Probably a really good idea to get one starlight camera and start playing with it, will the prices go lower?... should over time - but gradually, do not expect to see any crazy sales like we saw in the USA for Black Friday or Cyber Monday.
 
Last edited:
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NM4D said:
The NVR you have is in the $400 range by itself.
Click to expand...

I just bought the same router (Edit-NOT Router but NVR)!!! without the ports for $265 from Andy. I believe he quoted me $320 for the 5216 WITH the ports.
 
Last edited:
HAHA Yup! I was in the process of figuring out my Comcast Modem/router combo and had router on my mind!
My fault.
Thanks looney!
 
CJ555 said:
HAHA Yup! I was in the process of figuring out my Comcast Modem/router combo and had router on my mind!
My fault.
Thanks looney!
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info. I guess the model you picked up is a 16 channel NVR with no POE build in. Essentially you just connect your NVR into the network to pickup the IP cameras. If you don't mind me asking, what type of POE switch are you using with you setup? Thanks.

Andrew
 
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