DAHUA TiOC IVS misses human intrusions

[nitron]

Hi,

I have a little problem with the Dahua TiOC cameras (5Mp, bullet and turret).

Well, while fully aware of the fact that the general recommended height is above 3m I choose to mount mines at about 6m height.
I know, I know...

The reason for this choice is that my priority was that the flash strobe should be visible from the surroundings and the camera very difficult to attack.

The priority was clearly the Active Deterrence promised by the TiOC cameras and not a crisp picture of the intruder face.

The cameras are oriented at about 40°C. The focal is 3.6 and the distance to the subject is 6 to 10m.

Under these circumstances I have a very good visibility of my front/back yard. No obstacles.

Well the problem is that under these apparent optimal condition the camera seem to have a lot of problems idetifying the human targets. Following intrusions the alarm triggering is quite erratic.

Especially when the movement is fast no alarm is triggered. That's quite annoying since an old Optex outdoor detector is much more difficult to trick than the latest Dahua AI camera.

I use the IVS rules leaving at least 1cm "free" area in order to facilitate intrusion detection.
Things improve significantly if I superpose/intricate multiple intrusion zones and tripwire rules. The rules are layered/superposed on the same perimeter. But still I'm far, far away from the advertized 94% accuracy...

And if I run in front of the camera then most of the time the alarm is not triggered. The movement takes less than 4s. The tests are done in full daylight.

I wonder if the mounting height is the cause or just the cameras are in fact not so reliable in identifying the humans at least in my particular conditions.

Before discovering this forum I posted the problem on another forum and I tried a lot of configuations: CBR, VBR, iframes, lowering the fps, increasing it to the maximum. No luck.

I also updated the firmware to that of 04.2021. No luck either. When I sprint in front of the camera it does not detect me. And rest assured, I'm 1.80m and I'm not Usain Bolt !

I see that the TiOC are classified as light AI. Maybe a Pro AI would do a better job...

So my questions are:
- Did someone had the occasion to compare TiOC with 5442 (Pro AI) in order to verify that when installed at 5-6m height the 5442 performs better in detecting intrusions ?
- Do you know some accessory (12V siren) that can transform the 5442 in an Active Deterrence camera? I would like to connect directly the siren input to the alarm output of the 5442 thus realizing the same function as a TiOC camera (but hopefully with better detection rate).

Notes:
In my configuration the MD and the SMD+ are deactivated. Otherwise the "human" filtering alarm is trigered by birds, cats...
I had this intrusion detection problem on three cameras with two different software versions so it is not a defective camera.
On the good side I do not have false alarms. But the primary goal of the camera is to detect intrusion. And it systematically fails if the intruder is sprinting towards your home. Quite annoying.


Regards,

 

[wittaj]

At your height, people are being looked at a much greater angle than when it is installed at 3m, so that is absolutely compounding the problem because the camera sees the people dimensionally much smaller.

My 5MP TiOC at 2.8m is rock solid both with casual walking and sprinting of neighbor kids.

Less is better with these cameras. Too many IVS rules and it may struggle. Suggest one IVS rule - an intrusion box set for human detection and make makes sure the APPEARS and CROSSES is selected.

Did you do the Global Configuration to calibrate the camera for your field of view? If not, that will substantially help in trying to identify people at your height.

Most people will not try to mess with the camera, so if you can lower do so, and in the off event they try to screw with it, then you have nice close up pics of them.

 

[nitron]

Hi wittaj,

Thank you for your answer.

In the IVS rule I have multiple intrusion zones with human filter and "appear" and "cross" activated.

If the intruder remains enough time in a intruzion zone of 7m x 10m then the alarm is triggered. But if the intruder sprints towards the house then the camera won't trigger any IVS alarm.

I did not do the Global Configuration procedure because I did not find it in the Dahua menus.

Can you please tell me where in the IVS menus I can perform this calibration?
As I previously said the MD/SMD + is disabled.

Regards,

 

[wittaj]

I suggest trying just one intrusion box around the perimeter of the field of view. With appear and cross selected that is all you need. Multiple IVS rules can max out the CPU of the camera as it is trying to calculate and run through the algorithms for multiple IVS.

The CPU on these are small, so make sure you are not overtaxing the CPU. So no more than 15 FPS and only one IVS rule.

I have several TiOC and forget this one for some reason does not include the Global Config tab. But at your height it may or may not have helped anyway.

Make sure you have the min size set to 0,0

I think it boils down to a case of the camera is placed too high and the algorithm is looking for something that would appear more vertical than your vantage point is giving.

 

[nitron]

I started with only one intrusion box.

But the intrusion detection score was rather low. It is much improved with multiple rules.

The problem is when the intruder passes through the intrusion box and gets out of the field of view of the camera.
A distance of about 7m is apparently too short for the camera to identify a human especially when it's spriting at moderate speed. At least in my configuration.

When sprinting I remain in the detection zone for more than 2s, so according to the Dahua data, the alarm should trigger. But it's not the case. Systematically.

Ok, the height is 6m but if you look at the Dahua demonstration videos the image of the subjects let you think that the camera are placed at high heights too.

And I could not find any explicit official recomendation to limit the mounting height.

I tried with 15 FPS and then with 17 FPS, VBR and CBR.

I will try again when the new SMD 3.0 will finally be released hoping for improved IVS rules.

Any clue if a 5442 camera might do better than the TiOC in the detection process ?
After all they may have more processing power...

 

[fenderman]

Nothing is going to help you. You must lower the camera.

 

[nitron]

I'm afraid you are right fenderman.

The problem is that under that position the siren and the flash are easily identified by my neighbours .

In any case after the SMD 3.0 is released I'll have to add a camera at a lower height (about 3m).

Should I choose a 5442+siren or a TiOC ?

 

[biggen]

The nice thing about the TiOC is that the siren is built-in. If that is important to you, then I'd go that route.

 

[wittaj]

Many of us have experienced delays in target identification with SMD 3.0, so it might make your issue worse. SMD 3.0 is intended to knock out the false triggers from cats and dogs and work on Smart IR, so at your height, I think uploading to SMD 3.0 will make it worse, and your camera doesn't see IR, so Smart IR isn't going to do you any good either.

I haven't looked, but I bet the CPU is the same between this camera and the 5442, but the 5442 wouldn't also have to manage when to turn on the siren and the lights...

But any camera at that height will struggle based on your field of view. You would need to add a varifocal that optically zooms in to a distance further out so that you are in a sense making the angle smaller, but the field of view gets smaller and wouldn't see anything up close.

 

[mat200]

Well, while fully aware of the fact that the general recommended height is above 3m I choose to mount mines at about 6m height.
I know, I know...

IVS human detection rules may require the cameras to be able to get a better angle on the subject to be able to ID it as a human.
( thus lower mounted cameras, or the camera to look at images further way so that you have better angle and tighter FOV / stronger lens to get a more identified human object to look at. )

---

UPDATE: ( from Dahua )

What is TiOC ?

TiOC, also known as three-in-one camera, integrates 24/7 full-color monitoring, active deterrence and AI into one smart and innovative solution, greatly saving time and financial costs for distributors and installers. TiOC can accurately identify potential risks and effectively warn off intruders, effectively protecting life and property’s safety.

 

[nitron]

@wittaj
One of the advertised features of the new firmware including SMD 3.0 was the detection time was reduced for the IVS rules to about half in regard to the previous version. That's why I hoped that the new version will improve my detection rate. An intruder passing through the intrusion zone has to run twice as fast as previously .
But I'm aware that all the volunteer testers reported the opposite on another thread, meaning the IVS triggering takes more time than previously.

@mat200
Interesting results, so according to you what would be the optimum height ? Dahua recommends more than 3m...

In conclusion it seems that using a (Pro AI) 5442 won't make any significant difference versus a (Lite AI) TiOC camera as far as the human identification rate is concerned.

Thank You All!

 

[wittaj]

Camera manufactures also claim long infrared distances, among other things that have been proven to not be true in real world applications...

A lot of their claims are marketing based under ideal scenarios and often with things like slower shutters to get a low lux rating...

Ideal in theory is much different than real world practical.

None of us that have TiOC installed lower than 3meters has issues...just saying

 

[nitron]

@wittaj
Thank you for the suggestion

In my case I see problems when placing the cameras at low heigth (thus at mostly horizontal angle):
1. I cannot avoid filming the public domain (circulated street). And this is forbidden by the law. Of course I can use masking but this reduces the field of view. And I don't know how IVS will perform in this case (masked areas next to the intrusion zone).
2. When placed horizontal the camera takes "frontally" the street lights which degrade the image. Using WDR helps but the image is still degraded (less sensitivty in the areas of interest which are far less brighter than the street area).

Anyway I'll try to do something in the middle and buy a camera with 130dB WDR if possible.

 

[wittaj]

You are wrong. There are lots of issues with TIOC installed lower than 3meters.

As always YMMV, or operator error.

I have 3 of them working perfectly all installed between 6 to 9 feet.

 

[eggsan]

You are wrong. There are lots of issues with TIOC installed lower than 3meters.

I’am following this post with interest, planning to buy TIOC in future. Could you please comment on those issues?

 

[wittaj]

I purchased ones with the correct MP/Sensor ratio; whereas you were naive to chase 8MP on the 1/2.8 sensor and almost any camera with that combo is going to struggle....has nothing to do with it being TiOC. If I recall, didn't you find out it is on the same CPU as the 2MP cams, so that is why they limited things like bitrate on the 8MP because the CPU cannot handle it?

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these cameras at higher fps and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the camera and then the camera bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of cameras - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera.

Look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS or used fewer IVS and the camera became stable. As always, YMMV...

Movies on the big screen are shot at 24FPS, I do not think we need 30FPS for our mobile devices and tablets LOL. Shutter speed to capture details is much more important than FPS.

15 FPS is sufficient for surveillance cameras. Generally one IVS intrusion box works as well. Occasionally a field of view may require another one or two, but just because the camera is capable of 12 IVS rules doesn't mean to do it. And I have a few cameras running more than one IVS just fine...you just cannot get carried away.

I have a 2MP, 4MP, and 5MP and they are work great.

We are not filming Hollywood movies, we are trying to get a good clean capture of the perp and the police do not care about smooth video or which IVS rule tripped it; they want the ability to be able to freeze frame it and get a clean picture.

It is called understanding the capabilities of the camera...

 

[wittaj]

@marfor - Well then simply another case of operator error because these are not the appropriate cameras for Hollywood movies....

And I will copy the relevant text into another appropriate thread so that someone following this one doesn't make the mistake of purchasing an 8MP TiOC.

I didn't say it was the 8MP causing the problems....It is when you place 8MP on the same sensor/CPU as the 2MP that you will have issues. Just because someone makes and sells something doesn't mean you should buy it...you gotta do your research.

My text of trying 15FPS and one IVS is a troubleshooting technique used when people come here with problems, it is proven to work in most instances, so why not copy relevant text?

FYI - I can run my 4MP at 30FPS just fine...but why waste that much storage and run the camera CPU higher? 15FPS is fine. Running any CPU harder than it needs to just isn't smart and shortens its life.

And obviously in Dahua testing the 8MP performed well enough to sell it and perhaps your field of view is more busy than typical or the testing conditions with which Dahua tested it, or you are trying to use every capability at the same time. There are trade-offs with these units, just like with a vehicle.

If reolinks are so good, then stay with that brand and we look forward to the wonderful night videos you capture of some perp breaking into your home...I assure you they are messing with parameters to give it a fake good static image but the motion will be crap at night...But by bringing reolink into this thread, who is copying irrelevant stuff now

But please add the great night video with motion and clean captures you get from reolinks at night to this thread that has over 7 pages of video and images showing the opposite to prove that the reolinks can produce a nice video and freeze frame capture of motion at night:

Reolink: Deconstruction of a dangerous misleading youtube review "Finding the BEST 4K Security Camera NVR Package (Reolink vs Amcrest vs Swann)"

Executive Summary: DO NOT be a sheep. Ask what a reviewer can be missing, ask if a reviewer is using hype words to sell the cheapest product. Test your cameras and kits right away. Just do a bench test. Test real world conditions. Test moving suspects. Test at night, test at day. Use a test rig...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

I'm afraid you are right fenderman.

The problem is that under that position the siren and the flash are easily identified by my neighbours .

In any case after the SMD 3.0 is released I'll have to add a camera at a lower height (about 3m).

Should I choose a 5442+siren or a TiOC ?

Getting back to your original question, what about adding a camera lower that then triggers the TiOC lights and sirens?

At your height, it does make a great overview location and as you said much easier for your neighbors to see. And the lower camera would allow you to IDENTIFY the person.

Depending on whether you run Blue Iris or an NVR, there are ways you can trigger the other camera.

I use a camera on the side of the house to trigger my TIOC on the back corner so that it sirens before they even make it around to the backyard.

 

[fenderman]

You are not getting the point. Point is that Dahua is selling crap that does not work as advertised. If Dahua advertises that the camera works 8MP 30fps, then it must do it. Whether I need it or not is another question. Maybe I want to film Hollywood movies... You dont know it. So dont copy the same text into every topic, please. Its irrelevant.
For your information - even 8MP Reolink camera smart motion detection works fine, so its not 8MP sensor that is causing the problems with SMD and IVS. So You are wrong again.

Fool go buy a go pro. You are the reason manufacturers don't sell to end users. Reolink is complete shit.

 

[mat200]

You are not getting the point. Point is that Dahua is selling crap that does not work as advertised. If Dahua advertises that the camera works 8MP 30fps, then it must do it. Whether I need it or not is another question. Maybe I want to film Hollywood movies... You dont know it. So dont copy the same text into every topic, please. Its irrelevant.
For your information - even 8MP Reolink camera smart motion detection works fine, so its not 8MP sensor that is causing the problems with SMD and IVS. So You are wrong again.

Hi @marfor

Dahua, Hikvision, and even Reolink specs .. they all are flexible on their specs.

Reolink, specs - it is even harder to get them pinned down on specs - so they're actually worse on specs and other issues ( as others have noted ).


ALL security cameras have limits to their processing capabilities. Most IP PoE cameras are basically linux boxes with the appropriate DSP, image sensor chips and a lens. They have limited cpu power, and that power can be used for maxing your fps, or something else. Depending on the chips inside, it can use it for IVS / AI / motion detection and H.264/265 encoding. Everything that is being done is a compute task.

Think of this as a car.. or better a truck.

Truck specs may say:
Truck can go 100kmph
Truck can carry 10 people
Truck can carry 2000 kg
Truck can climb 60 degree slop
Truck can drive over iced lake.

Now can you expect the truck to do all of that at once??

That is similar to the Dahua and HIkvision spec sheets.. when they state 30fps it does not mean it can do everything at 30fps .. yes, I know would be nice if it could, but we have to accept this is how the specs are done - similar to cars and trucks... and yes, this does make it harder for us to find what we want.

In terms of AI, I do not feel any AI is really ready for prime time yet, they are getting better... and this is why I like the idea of having a PC or other system process images for AI processing that I can update the software frequently as the AI gets better. ( cloud processing could also be used - but I really do not want to process everything in the cloud myself.. )