CCA Myth?

[David87965]

Been using CCA cable for over 9 months and not 1 fire has started, no sign of insulation melting, no sign of charred beams or roof insulation so why should i upgrade to pure copper? these cables i have used survived an entire week of a summer heatwave resulting in 47C+ and still no issues. that 47C day is the highest this area has ever gotten so please, tell me why with some science and not opinions and not just screaming copper thermal/conductance ratings. i want real solid evidence why i should even switch.

look at the pictures. also they are say they are compliant, is there such thing as CCA certified vs non? is this why my house has not caught fire lol

Im not against pure copper but i think lot of people here exaggerate it. i have had ZERO issues with these cables.

so what gives? are these cca cables blessed or something....

the power draw is 12.5W per cable at max ir

edit: sorry for big picture file but it needed to remain uncompressed to show detail of subject in picture. all.bmp contains 3 pictures of the cable close up as 1 image file hence its size.

 

[fenderman]

Been using CCA cable for over 9 months and not 1 fire has started, no sign of insulation melting, no sign of charred beams or roof insulation so why should i upgrade to pure copper? these cables i have used survived an entire week of a summer heatwave resulting in 47C+ and still no issues. that 47C day is the highest this area has ever gotten so please, tell me why with some science and not opinions and not just screaming copper thermal/conductance ratings. i want real solid evidence why i should even switch.

look at the pictures. also they are say they are compliant, is there such thing as CCA certified vs non? is this why my house has not caught fire lol

Im not against pure copper but i think lot of people here exaggerate it. i have had ZERO issues with these cables.

so what gives? are these cca cables blessed or something....

the power draw is 12.5W per cable at max ir

It's not about fires it's about dropping packets, poor conductors of poe and being brittle.... A longer run would make issues more prevalant. It's garbage and should never be used.... Why you would install it and then ask this question is beyond me... Have you done any network tests to determine packet loss? It's beyond me how somebody would try to save $50 he's on the backbone of his Network... Particularly because cable issues are difficult to pinpoint and diagnose and replacing the cable is extremely time-consuming...

 

[Aengus4h]

some info

https://www.anixter.com/en_uk/resources/literature/wire-wisdom/copper-vs-aluminum-conductors.html

Whats wrong with cheap cat5e cable? - Twisted Pair Technologies

Aluminium has a higher resistance than copper so needs to be used at larger wire size than copper for the same application (distance, power draw etc). You also need to use the correct terminal connector for Al/CCA which are different to pure copper. Note too that CCA does not conform to the Cat5x standards at all, regardless what the vendor or manufacturer may say.

While your setup may well be working fine, at 9 months you'd hope it would, after a couple years you may find its not so reliable and then you're looking at maybe re-running some cables. Or even all at the same time to save more problems and fault tracing etc.

Over time and especially if exposed to extremes with several heat/cold cycles reliability suffers, probably the copper plating starts to fail/fracture in places and power/signal transmission tails off as a result, especially since Al has higher resistance and the cable is not 2 gauges higher than the pure copper equivalent to compensate for this resistance. It simply wouldn't fit into RJ connectors if it was.

 

[David87965]

hmmmmm...... so where can i buy trusted pure copper pre-crimped 30m lengths. is bunnings a good source? i know they are expensive vs other places but if its trusted id rather do that because changing the cables is a pain in the back side. mainly because of my roof tiles are terracotta and they just are heavy dont align easy and shit but i did do the rest of the installation perfect. and NO i did not use CCA to save money... i am not that type of person who likes cutting corners. i installed them then after some reading i seen a post about how bad CCA was and i remembered on the box it said CCA. it was not intentional.

 

[Aengus4h]

Yeah not all answers are of the "helpful guidance" here huh.

Are you UK based? (guessing after googling bunnings who I've not heard of)

Best to source branded cable like belden if you want good quality and avoid DIY stores who probably don't have a clue what they are selling once you're beyond screws and such ;-) Better to source via electronics specialists like Farnell or RS perhaps

ack just realised, 47c, more likely Oz then oops

 

[David87965]

Yeah not all answers are of the "helpful guidance" here huh.

Are you UK based? (guessing after googling bunnings who I've not heard of)

Best to source branded cable like belden if you want good quality and avoid DIY stores who probably don't have a clue what they are selling once you're beyond screws and such ;-) Better to source via electronics specialists like Farnell or RS perhaps

Australian mate.

Bunnings is a DIY store for pretty much everything and it is very iconic to Aus so im surprised you never heard of it mentioned here.

Im going to order from farnell unless someone has objections. I actually bought my fluke temp gun and keysight multimeter from there so i feel like i can trust them as a supplier.

 

[Aengus4h]

Farnell are generally good, just check its pure copper when you're ordering just to be sure. Most here would be buying reels and terminating them once run, less risk of damaging the ends that way as well as more cost efficient, in which case you need to buy the right ends suited for solid copper wire or solid/stranded ones. There is a difference in how they mechanically crimp.

 

[David87965]

Farnell are generally good, just check its pure copper when you're ordering just to be sure. Most here would be buying reels and terminating them once run, less risk of damaging the ends that way as well as more cost efficient, in which case you need to buy the right ends suited for solid copper wire or solid/stranded ones. There is a difference in how they mechanically crimp.

besides the chance of damaging the ends is there any other downside besides costs. dont factor cost in. i should be alright then in 30m pure copper lengths pre-terminated and when installing i will make sure i dont get it stuck/snagged. would this be ok??

 

[Aengus4h]

should be fine with pre-made David, go with what best suits your needs tbh

 

[TonyR]

Sounds like @Aengus4h has you on the right path, but I'll post this in case someone searches for "CCA" in the future:

CCA can have issues per Belden here ==>> CCA Cable Should Be Avoided.

• Lack of Compliance
• Oxidation and corrosion
• Not suitable for PoE applications
• Poor flexibility and bend radius
• Shorter cable runs

 

[Aengus4h]

its noticeable how, as electrical contractors are scavenging for work and undercutting proper pro network installers, CCA creeps into business installations unnoticed till it starts to fail. The cable guys we worked with lost out on a piece of work as the project team got a far cheaper quote from their electrical contractor. Didn't want to hear when we flagged issues, competency, compliance etc and sadly we got overruled by the business who wanted cheap. Wonder how those cable runs are fairing a few years down the road esp as some of it was exposed on trays only protected by roofing since it was in baggage handling. There already were some issues with WiFi repeaters on some of that new wiring not long after install. SEP now tho :-D

 

[mat200]

Been using CCA cable for over 9 months and not 1 fire has started, no sign of insulation melting, no sign of charred beams or roof insulation so why should i upgrade to pure copper? these cables i have used survived an entire week of a summer heatwave resulting in 47C+ and still no issues. that 47C day is the highest this area has ever gotten so please, tell me why with some science and not opinions and not just screaming copper thermal/conductance ratings. i want real solid evidence why i should even switch.

look at the pictures. also they are say they are compliant, is there such thing as CCA certified vs non? is this why my house has not caught fire lol

Im not against pure copper but i think lot of people here exaggerate it. i have had ZERO issues with these cables.

so what gives? are these cca cables blessed or something....

the power draw is 12.5W per cable at max ir

Hi David,

Have you heard of the Lottery?

When you play you have a CHANCE to win. Yes very small chance.

If you do not play you ALWAYS win.


Similar to using CCA - using CCA you always lose, you just don't know how much until you lose big time and have a fire.... or smaller time when you have to trouble shoot a line and can't figure out which cable / connection suddenly finally died due to oxidation, fragility / brittleness, or other..

If you use solid copper cat5e/6 you win.



Seriously, THERE is NO thing as compliant CCA cat5e/6 cable - they are sold and made by fraudsters.

The sheathing most certainly do not meet any fire standards worth a darn either.

Update:

Been using CCA cable for over 9 months ..

look at the pictures. also they are say they are compliant, is there such thing as CCA certified vs non? ..

Hi David,

I believe you have been defrauded - from all the research I have done there is no such thing as cat5e/cat6 CCA cable - it can not meet compliance. Those cables are most certainly fraudulent.

Unfortunately, there is not enough power to enforce proper labeling and certification test equipment is pricey. ( and Amazon, Ebay, and others just do not care... as long as they get their cut )

So, the fire issue - yes, each of these cables will increase the chances of fire compared to a copper cable.

A larger bundle of CCA cables increases it more, and even more when in hot environments. ( the ability of the wires to carry power decreases when the ambient temp goes up - to a potential to actually heat up the cable bundle and even become an igniter for bundles carrying significant amount of power )

Remember also, if the vendor of the cable is willing to be fraudulent about the cat5e/cat6 ratings, what else are they lying about? I'm certain they will also be fraudulent on the sheath rating - thus you can think of these cables as "fuses" to spread fire also, not just as potential igniters.

The following video will give you a better idea of some of the fire related concerns.


Remember quality cable only costs a bit more and just a minor expense when compared to the labor you are putting in.

 

[TonyR]

Remember also, if the vendor of the cable is willing to be fraudulent about the cat5e/cat6 ratings, what else are they lying about?

C'mon, man...not the Chinese!

- thus you can think of these cables as "fuses" to spread fire also, not just as potential igniters.

When I first read their use of "fuses" I'm thinking a "fuse" as in an overcurrent device that melts or maybe they meant "fusee" as in the old railroad company flares (showing my age now). But then I looked it up because I though maybe some non-U.S. countries had another term and it hit me...it's also the cord used to ignite explosives...I had not thought about it or used it for so long I had forgotten I knew that.

Someone tell me I'm not alone with these periodic 'brain farts'...please!

 

[mat200]

C'mon, man...not the Chinese!
.....it's also the cord used to ignite explosives...I had not thought about it or used it for so long I had forgotten I knew that.

Someone tell me I'm not alone with these periodic 'brain farts'...please!

4th of July was just a short fuse ago ;-)

 

[Aengus4h]

hmmm that video showing testing involved exposing the cable to fire and yes a properly certified low smoke cable you would expect to perform well, a fake perhaps less so, tho that speed was shocking so clearly poor materials used for the sheath.

Any real life testing/reports tho that shows CCA being the actual source of fire? I guess it might be possible with PoE at high load and cable bent too tight or damaged, but then technically any ethernet Catx cable could do the same with PoE and close to a combustible material like buried under carpet etc as some folks do.

Coax CCA is fine apparently but then its not likely to be carrying any current, but LAN cabling specifically excludes CCA from certification so as noted it cannot claim to be any any Catx standard.

 

[mat200]

hmmm that video showing testing involved exposing the cable to fire and yes a properly certified low smoke cable you would expect to perform well, a fake perhaps less so, tho that speed was shocking so clearly poor materials used for the sheath.

Any real life testing/reports tho that shows CCA being the actual source of fire? I guess it might be possible with PoE at high load and cable bent too tight or damaged, but then technically any ethernet Catx cable could do the same with PoE and close to a combustible material like buried under carpet etc as some folks do.

Coax CCA is fine apparently but then its not likely to be carrying any current, but LAN cabling specifically excludes CCA from certification so as noted it cannot claim to be any any Catx standard.

Hi Aengus4h

PoE is fairly new, so there is not as much data on PoE and CCA cable. I would compare it to the history of Aluminum ( electrical cable ) used in carrying AC current in the USA. It took years before the threat was clear and use of Aluminum wiring was banned.

The big issue will come in the future as PoE standards and devices start to carry more amperes over the wires and with longer term degradation of the Aluminum core wiring w/oxidation and physical breakage due to brittleness.

Note data cabling is recently getting added to the USA NEC ( National Electric Code ) 2017 in particular. ( note the table below does not include CCA but only copper conductors )

The table here maybe worth reviewing.
http://cccassoc.org/files/4515/0609/8701/CCCA_2017NEC_ImpactOnICT_Final_091817.pdf

 

[TonyR]

For me it's not so much the issue how the fire started, it's the fact that the product apparently supports or allows combustion which allow the flames to spread without as much hindrance and more rapidly, such as using a jacket cable with ZERO flame retardant properties. And even the smoke produced is an issue when it comes to contributing to an already hazardous condition, the flames themselves.

It reminds me of a hypothesis about the Hindenburg zeppelin having its outer skin doped with components used in the manufacture of rocket fuel.
When it ignited (for whatever reason), the outer skin may have contributed to the disaster...who knows?

 

[Aengus4h]

Yeah I agree re the potential of it acting as a fuse to carry fire along to other parts of the property, same applies to any type of cabling or other materials used that span areas within a property. Just trying to raise that the scare mongering about CCA causing fires isn't really based much in fact, and the flame tests for sure do not back that premise up.

PoE isn't that new (tho power capability is increasing) and nor is knowledge about how vinyl materials react in fire, we've had to use low-drip cabling here for a long time in public buildings after real life and testing showed that the insulator actually dripped burning globs down onto the area below as well as spreading the fire along its length.

 

[David87965]

Let me make this clear. I DO NOT take shortcuts in anything i do. I thought i was buying cable that met my requirements and the worker said it was fine. I assumed since it was an Australian retailer with an ABN there must be some sort of certification requirement to sell the items but i was wrong. D-Comp is the shop that sold me these cables. The worker knew i was using it for 4k PoE camera setup. Now CCA PROBABLY can be used for non-powered devices but apparently they are still not recommended for network packet reliablity. i dont even know why they sell CCA when the price is only $5 per cable more. god damn it Australian Retail shops. no wonder we gotta order online -.-' anyways....... i thought id go full on crazy and buy DOUBLE SHIELDED, LOW CROSS-TALK, COPPER CORE, CAT6A now if im told this wont do PoE then im gonna just sell my cameras and be done with technology lmao.

element14 has copper cable and i would like to get some opinions on these:

http://au.element14.com/videk/2996as-10b/patch-lead-cat6a-blue-10m/dp/2392534
http://au.element14.com/videk/2996as-3b/patch-lead-cat6a-blue-3m/dp/2392532

if you're scared of the links ill paste description below:

Spoiler: 3m cable

The 2996AS-3B is a 3m blue shielded CAT-6a S/FTP Patch Cable with a RJ45 plug on each end. The cable is made of PE with 26AWG stranded core copper conductors and LSZH cable jacket. The RJ45 plug is made of transparent polycarbonate with nickel-plated phosphor bronze contacts. This cable is designed to support high-bandwidth and high-speed applications, manufactured using premium cable and with two shielding layers to ensure that crosstalk is kept at the lowest possible levels.

• Double shielded for protection against EM and RF interference
• Low crosstalk
• 10Gbps CAT-6a standard for high demand applications
• UL94V-2 Plug housing flammability

Applications
Communications & Networking, RF Communications, Industrial

Spoiler: 10m cable

The 2996AS-10B is a 10m blue shielded CAT-6a S/FTP Patch Cable with a RJ45 plug on each end. The cable is made of PE with 26AWG stranded core copper conductors and LSZH cable jacket. The RJ45 plug is made of transparent polycarbonate with nickel-plated phosphor bronze contacts. This cable is designed to support high-bandwidth and high-speed applications, manufactured using premium cable and with two shielding layers to ensure that crosstalk is kept at the lowest possible levels.

• Double shielded for protection against EM and RF interference
• Low crosstalk
• 10Gbps CAT-6a standard for high demand applications
• UL94V-2 Plug housing flammability

Applications
Communications & Networking, RF Communications, Industrial

 

[TonyR]

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