Camera and placement recommendations?

[AnOldDude]

Greets all

I've got a case of "Too Much Information". I am very confused and would appreciate any help you can give me.

I already have a Synology DS214play and it would be great if I could use this to capture images / video. I'm very comfortable with computers and I'm in favor of POE. I do not currently have a POE switch and my current switch is fully populated so once I figure out a plan I'll have to get one to support the type and number of cameras required.

I'm looking for camera recommendations that will give me good images, maximize my coverage and (of course) minimize cost. I am not opposed to PTZ cameras but my impression from my reading here is that fixed cameras are preferred in many instances.

I'm also concerned about placement. Easiest for me would be to come up the middle of the house and up through the attic. My computer equipment is located on the lowest floor in a utility room. I'm concerned that mounting cameras under the soffit in front will be too high. Mounting them under the soffits under the first floor would be more difficult to run the cabling and would be too low and easily tampered with. There is no soffit in the back of the house (facing west) so any cameras will be exposed to the weather.

I live in Northern Ohio so we get weather from below zero to over 90. The front door faces due East. I have a light in the middle of the yard (seldom used) and a street light on the Southeast corner of the property.

I'd like to catch the dog walker that isn't cleaning up after his pet, the kids in back of us that are trampling my wife's plants and figure out why my tomato plants can't keep their fruit. Even better would be to find out who is leaving cigarette butts out beside my shed. (Nothing against smokers - just wish they would police the grounds.)

Thank you in advance for any ideas you would share with me.

 

[icerabbit]

Welcome to the forum.

Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I bullets are pretty much your best value bet. Run them at 2mp / 1920x1080 for improved wide angle, better performance and some storage space savings. A bit more money for the turrets (eyeball without a dome) and regular domes. Hikvision says they're all quite cold tolerant.

Synology does have surveillance station included in your DS, so you may use that for storage. I'm not positive about in camera motion detection though to minimize cpu usage on the syno.

You're right that hanging cameras under the top level eve is quite on the high side for covering activity closer to your home, front door and garage. It is fine for viewing the curb and mailbox though. At the same time your low overhangs are quite low. Like four feet off the ground. Any camera there would have to be shooting horizontal out. Regular domes hanging low would be the most tamper resistant as bullets just have an exposed tightening threaded fitting. Where to put the cameras easily and safely is a good question.

 

[nayr]

Front door put it about eye level, or roughly the height of the window on your door (maby a tad lower) to the left of the door and you should get a good face shot of anyone at the door and get your front ground level windows in with it.

Right side of your garage over the trashcans would be a good spot for a driveway camera, high above the door under the 2nd floor overhang a nice variable zoom camera focused at end of driveway/mailbox area would probably work very well..

South back south/west side of the house mount 2 cameras, one looking east and one looking north, maby one more on north west corner looking east depending on whats on that side of the house.

Thats my first impression of locations/placements, alot more thought should go into it however... if you put a corner mount PTZ above trashcans it can normally be focused at end of driveway/mailbox with tight zoom and put a motion sensor infront of garage doors and one on south side of house.... if anything moves over there it'll check it out and then go back to mailbox watch, also good if someone parks on street you can watch there vehicle from a distance... you'll also be able to watch sidewalk traffic much better with a good PTZ; at those distances the cameras on front of house wont be able to ID people on sidewalk... that could do away with the need of several cameras and end up not costing much more + having lower storage requirements for recording.

 

[spotco2]

I have a 2032 with a 4mm lens mounted at the top corner of a garage door looking down the driveway. At 40' faces start to really break up and at 70' you would have to know them to recognize them. I think one with a 6mm lens would do well above your garage door on the right (not trash bin side) pointing towards the mailbox or just past it.

The back you are trying to see something 70'+ away from the house. You are going to have to step up your game a little on lens to be clear at the building. You could mount under the bottom overhang of the sun room with little worry I would think.

I was also looking at PTZ's for my house but the size of most of them was a turn off for me. It's not that they are all huge, but they are large enough to be very noticeable hanging off the side of a house. I have a new 6mm 2232 that I am going to try and hook up tomorrow and will post some 40' and 70' shots if you would like to see them.

 

[AnOldDude]

A couple of things to mention.

I realized that the overhead drawing is a bit off. The 40’ measurement from the front of the house should be to the sidewalk (not the street) so the distances in the front of the house are a tad greater than indicated.

We planted hedges this year around 3/4 of the perimeter. 5 years from now I should have a ‘natural’ privacy screen on the north, south and west sides of the property. Currently they come up to your knee and are pretty sparse.

I'm so lost on camera placement - especially with the various levels in the front – but your comments make me feel a bit better. I wasn’t sure if I was missing the obvious or not. I do find myself looking at the property from different locations and angles when I’m out doing yard work. While I do want to be cost-conscious I don’t want to be cheap.


Icerabbit
Thank you for the specific recommendation. I once had a Foscam PTZ I purchased to monitor a contractor that worked on the driveway retaining walls. I mounted it inside the house and upside-down in a window over the driveway. It did serve its purpose and allowed my wife and me to monitor the contractor while at work. The resolution was less than satisfying. I was actually kind of relieved to have the device fail before the warranty was up. I returned it (via Amazon) for a refund and didn’t purchase another. I am comfortable paying a bit more for something that will last. I also understand that there’s a lot less to go wrong with a fixed device than one with moving parts.

I’m also glad to hear that I can leverage the Synology. I originally purchased it for storage and multimedia purposes but have been less than impressed with some of the software. An example of what I mean would be the PVR feature. It works but in the US there is no provision for an EPG (Electronic Programming Guide). Makes recording a real chore.

Nayr
Good call on the front door location. I was concerned about the front door being recessed too far. I took a look from that position as I left for work this morning and was pleasantly surprised at the FOV. As you indicated the lower front windows are visible. So is the mailbox and most everything in-between. The neighbor’s house cannot be seen but that might be a good location anyway. I’ll take a snapshot from that spot and have a look.

I am unclear what position you mean for the driveway camera but will assume you meant on the right OVERLOOKING the trash cans. I’ll snap a photo from that location too.

Spotco2
I would be grateful to see the photos from your 6mm 2232. Let me know when / where you post them.

My original thought was to put a PTZ in the southwest corner to cover the back and south side of the property. There’s an entrance to the sunroom, a door to a storage area underneath it and a window to my utility room all in close proximity that I’d want good coverage with. Please correct me if I’m wrong but if I place it on the corner couldn’t I get 270 degree coverage of the backyard and south side of the house? That way I could also monitor the shed and back of the property without an array of (fixed) cameras. I wouldn’t be as concerned about esthetics at that location either. I suppose that I will need to better understand motion sensor capability and how it gets physically wired too if I go that route.


I used to run the website and forum for the Bricklin International Owner's Club for about 10+ years and was very pleased to find a forum with friendly, knowledgeable and active participants. I really do appreciate all of you that contribute your knowledge and experience to the benefit of me and others. Thank you! (If you visit the http://www.Bricklin.org site with IE add it to compatibility mode to get the menus to work. And yes - I still have the car!)

 

[nayr]

PTZ on back corner of the house works very well.. Ive got a DH-SD42C212S-HN on the rear corner of my house and I can view half of the front yard and all of the back yard, and on the back of the house its hardly noticeable from the street but it can zoom all the way to the sidewalk road and then some.

check out this thread where I hookup some sensors to keep an eye on things out of normal frame: http://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php?790-Outdoor-Motion-Sensor&p=6265#post6265

 

[spotco2]

Here's a few shots playing today and tonight.

6mm at 150'



6mm at 60'



4mm at 40'



4mm at 20'



6mm at 20'



4mm at night



6mm at night

 

[icerabbit]

The great news is that synology now states it has in camera motion detection for hikvision, which takes a load of cpu cycles off the syno. The video motion detection with two cameras was stressing my older ds system. All things considered between getting a new ds, camera licensing * and having it pre-occupied with just surveillance doing video detection, I went with dedicating a small computer. With in camera support and a new ds you should at least be able to test thing out.
* Note that syno requires a license per camera above two cameras.

https://www.synology.com/en-global/...e=all&multiple_stream=all&audio=all&alarm=all

For camera placement, I thought the soffit forward in the middle between the garage doors might be a good spot, looking straight forward.

And then ultimately to get better distance coverage as well as close by, you may end up with dual cams, because if you go tele to the curb and mailbox, then you miss nearby coverage. So personally I'd look at a one with abit more tele covering towards the curb in the upper soffit, and wide for stuff in front of the garage in the lower soffit.

For the back garden, I'd look at the soffit space under the porch roof, same for the shed. Alternatively you have the exterior wall section of the attic on the nearest corner.

Have you had thoughts on which style of camera bullet / turret / dome or mix you mght like to with?

 

[AnOldDude]

PTZ on back corner of the house works very well.. Ive got a DH-SD42C212S-HN on the rear corner of my house and I can view half of the front yard and all of the back yard, and on the back of the house its hardly noticeable from the street but it can zoom all the way to the sidewalk road and then some.

check out this thread where I hookup some sensors to keep an eye on things out of normal frame: http://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php?790-Outdoor-Motion-Sensor&p=6265#post6265

Your post was one of the ones I ran across while lurking I found fascinating. Very cool the way you've got it working.

 

[AnOldDude]

spotco2
Thank you for posting these. I do like the 'real world' examples and appreciate you taking the time to do these.

Any thoughts on what would be acceptable to turn into the police for identification purposes?
Certainly the 6mm x 150' is too far. 6mm x 60'? 4mm x 40'?

 

[AnOldDude]

The great news is that synology now states it has in camera motion detection for hikvision, which takes a load of cpu cycles off the syno. The video motion detection with two cameras was stressing my older ds system. All things considered between getting a new ds, camera licensing * and having it pre-occupied with just surveillance doing video detection, I went with dedicating a small computer. With in camera support and a new ds you should at least be able to test thing out.
* Note that syno requires a license per camera above two cameras.

https://www.synology.com/en-global/...e=all&multiple_stream=all&audio=all&alarm=all

I will definitely try it before going with another computer. As a network administrator I do have access to 'retired' ones from the office so equipment isn't usually a problem for me.

For camera placement, I thought the soffit forward in the middle between the garage doors might be a good spot, looking straight forward.

I agree.

And then ultimately to get better distance coverage as well as close by, you may end up with dual cams, because if you go tele to the curb and mailbox, then you miss nearby coverage. So personally I'd look at a one with a bit more tele covering towards the curb in the upper soffit, and wide for stuff in front of the garage in the lower soffit.

For the back garden, I'd look at the soffit space under the porch roof, same for the shed. Alternatively you have the exterior wall section of the attic on the nearest corner.

Have you had thoughts on which style of camera bullet / turret / dome or mix you might like to with?

Absolutely no idea on style.

I don't have power out at the shed. What would be great would be a battery-backed-up-solar-powered-wireless-camera aimed at the back door. LOL

Your thoughts on dual cameras makes sense. I suppose any threats where I'd want to identify someone would be close if not very close to the house. Although it would be great to have that type of resolution on the perimeter just don't know if that is necessary.

 

[icerabbit]

That's the thing. Obviously the top goal typically is to be able to ID people who walk up to the vehicles in front of the garage, to your garage, front, side, back doors. Covering farther into the distance is easy in the daytime, but tough at night because infrared light doesn't reach very far, unless you have expensive cams and/or extra illumination.

The good thing is, since you will roll your own, you can start small, experiment with maybe two or three, where you know you want them, and go from there.

Sorry for the lack of clarity regarding the shed. What I meant was, for coverage of the shed (not from the shed) I'd see about tucking a camera under the nearest soffit space under the porch, or on the facing vertical wall plate in the corner. Do you have vinyl siding or clap boards? You might be able to tuck the wire(s) under the top J channel to come around to the porch front corners to look towards the shed. (doubt you can easily get in or through the porch roof). Otherwise, on the gable end side of the roof there, you could surface mount and aim back to the shed. Based on distance probably 12mm. Night time doubtful you'd see much.

If style is not important, then cheapest, smallest footprint to install and easiest to configure are the bullets like the 2032-I.

I also always recommend people look at http://www.jvsg.com/online/# to get a better understanding about field of view and distance coverage vs lens size.

Also check out http://www.axis.com/academy/pixel_count/into_ip.htm with regards to resolution required for identification, monitoring, etc. where they'll recommend 80px face size. They've got an interesting bunch of articles there to brush up on things and move towards a better informed decision.

 

[spotco2]

spotco2
Thank you for posting these. I do like the 'real world' examples and appreciate you taking the time to do these.

Any thoughts on what would be acceptable to turn into the police for identification purposes?
Certainly the 6mm x 150' is too far. 6mm x 60'? 4mm x 40'?

Sadly the quality starts degrading quickly over 20' with a 4mm and 40' with a 6mm and faces start to get to grainy to really make out clearly. I think I'm going to order a 8mm and 12mm to play with and get rid of the 6mm after I get them. Then again I might replace my 4mm with the 6mm.

If you know the person you can recognize them farther out, but not sure about getting a positive ID for police out past the points made above.

I don't know what I'm going to end up with yet. I'm not satisfied with my choices at this point in the game but what I have is better than nothing.

 

[icerabbit]

12mm is the best one can do inexpensively tele wise. Beyond that you get into varifocal 2.8 - 12mm. Positive being that you can dial in the zoom range as desired and refocus the target zone (fixed cameras may not always have the best sharpness at any given distance but benefit from infinite focus), with the downside that the more you zoom the narrow the depth of field gets, certainly at medium range 30-40ft.

This was a quick 1:1 composite I did to show face and car tag size (and maybe sharpness, and the font weight is 25pt 50pt 75pt and 100pt respectively too) with a 12mm 2032-I bullet at 25, 50, 75 and 100ft. It happened to be a high contrast day between rain storms. At some point I may work at better examples, maybe show the entire frame, like spotco, though all you'd see is a bit of driveway and lots of trees.

 

[AnOldDude]

That's the thing. Obviously the top goal typically is to be able to ID people who walk up to the vehicles in front of the garage, to your garage, front, side, back doors. Covering farther into the distance is easy in the daytime, but tough at night because infrared light doesn't reach very far, unless you have expensive cams and/or extra illumination.

The good thing is, since you will roll your own, you can start small, experiment with maybe two or three, where you know you want them, and go from there.

Sorry for the lack of clarity regarding the shed. What I meant was, for coverage of the shed (not from the shed) I'd see about tucking a camera under the nearest soffit space under the porch, or on the facing vertical wall plate in the corner. Do you have vinyl siding or clap boards? You might be able to tuck the wire(s) under the top J channel to come around to the porch front corners to look towards the shed. (doubt you can easily get in or through the porch roof). Otherwise, on the gable end side of the roof there, you could surface mount and aim back to the shed. Based on distance probably 12mm. Night time doubtful you'd see much.

If style is not important, then cheapest, smallest footprint to install and easiest to configure are the bullets like the 2032-I.

I also always recommend people look at http://www.jvsg.com/online/# to get a better understanding about field of view and distance coverage vs lens size.

Also check out http://www.axis.com/academy/pixel_count/into_ip.htm with regards to resolution required for identification, monitoring, etc. where they'll recommend 80px face size. They've got an interesting bunch of articles there to brush up on things and move towards a better informed decision.

I really did expect to start small and experiment. What I wanted to prevent was spending money on the 'wrong' device. Good advice and appreciated any way I look at it.

No worries on the shed question. I had a good idea what you meant.

Question: Are the variable zoom models 'discreet'? That is to say if I find a setting I like can I look at it with a variable zoom and say 'oh - I need a 6mm here to duplicate this FOV and zoom'. Perhaps I could get one and mount it temporarily in various locations to experiment. Find out what zoom works best then get a 'fixed' for that spot and move the variable to the next.

I hadn't considered using the siding to route the wire. Smart. (And it's aluminum siding - the house was built in the mid-70s.)

Thanks for the reference links. I did see those elsewhere and had a look. I won't pretend to fully grasp everything but it did give me a clue. As far as the 80px face size - was that to mean total area (X * Y) or vertical height for the face? The http://www.jvsg.com/online/# link shows face width in pixels ...

Something else those links had me questioning. Let's take a DS-2CD2032-I (http://www.hikvision.com/en/Products_show.asp?id=7326) at 1920 x 1080 using a 12mm lens. I'm seeing a FOV of 23.2 degrees. while a haven't done the math I did print out a copy of my property dimensions and laid another paper over it (90 degree) coverage. 4+ cameras to do the whole back yard? Or is my thinking as screwed up as I think it is?

 

[AnOldDude]

12mm is the best one can do inexpensively tele wise. Beyond that you get into varifocal 2.8 - 12mm. Positive being that you can dial in the zoom range as desired and refocus the target zone (fixed cameras may not always have the best sharpness at any given distance but benefit from infinite focus), with the downside that the more you zoom the narrow the depth of field gets, certainly at medium range 30-40ft.

This was a quick 1:1 composite I did to show face and car tag size (and maybe sharpness, and the font weight is 25pt 50pt 75pt and 100pt respectively too) with a 12mm 2032-I bullet at 25, 50, 75 and 100ft. It happened to be a high contrast day between rain storms. At some point I may work at better examples, maybe show the entire frame, like spotco, though all you'd see is a bit of driveway and lots of trees.

Definitely good information.

 

[AnOldDude]

Sadly the quality starts degrading quickly over 20' with a 4mm and 40' with a 6mm and faces start to get to grainy to really make out clearly. I think I'm going to order a 8mm and 12mm to play with and get rid of the 6mm after I get them. Then again I might replace my 4mm with the 6mm.

If you know the person you can recognize them farther out, but not sure about getting a positive ID for police out past the points made above.

I don't know what I'm going to end up with yet. I'm not satisfied with my choices at this point in the game but what I have is better than nothing.

Good to know. I'm here to learn what NOT to do as much as what will work.

 

[paarlberg]

That guy looks a little sketchy, might want to call the cops. :rolleyes-new:

 

[icerabbit]

Important to note that the inexpensive cameras are fixed, and even those that may be adjustable do not have motorized adjustments. (wouldn't we all wish they did for that price! ) An adjustable camera is typically larger. Motorized even bigger and get into commercial territory, for little benefit in residential. I have several 2732 model domes that have a zoom range between 2.8-12 and is described as pan tilt rotate with zoom. At the time of installation only, till you fix it in place by tightening the thumb screws and putting the cover on. So, it pans left to right with some indentations, clicks up and down with some indentations, then the zoom and focus are two rings around the lens that you push left to right. After you "dial it in" by checking it on the computer, you lock it in place, and that's it, till you take the dome off to make an adjustment. So, it is physical installation only. Not something like motorized pan tilt zoom, which would drive up the price a great deal. But they're discreet in that you can't tell whether it is tele or wide. All covered under the dome. They are relatively big though and may not be easy for you to mount, especially in the back as you have a lack of soffits. So fixed bullets there the size of drink can with the smallest ring are the easiest to mount. The soffits around my house vary too, and on a couple of them I've had to be a bit creative. And on the smallest ones I haven't hung the cameras yet. (procrastinating about options and not disturbing the look of the house)

Yes, you have the viewing angle right on the tele model. Doing it on paper is great and fast. I did the same thing, cutting various wedges, enlarging a property sketch; to save me the trouble of creating a detailed property map in software. I wasn't getting the hang of the software fast enough to do the stuff away from the main structure. Too many angles and circles.

For the back yard, you'd probably look at two cameras with wide coverage. One that keeps an eye above / around the door about who approaches, and covering most of that side of the yard. Then probably another wide one facing straight back or sideways the other way, for overview. Shed detail would be a tele one. So, not 4 segments with a tele. You primarily want overview and closer detail upon approach. The shed is the add-on.

With regards to going wide. 2.8 or 4mm. Tough call. I lean towards 2.8 if people will be approaching the camera and getting the widest overview, if wide overview is important. In some cases you don't to go wide because all you get is wall, shrubs, etc. and get more chance of features triggering motion needlessly. And it requires the subject to be a bit closer to get the same amount of detail.

For recognition, the goal is towards a vertical face height of 80px high (probably 2/3rds that wide). Realize that people you want to identify do approach the house usually.

 

[icerabbit]

that guy looks a little sketchy, might want to call the cops. :rolleyes-new:

lol