Best IP camera for criminal face identification from 20 meters from all sides

[tmcdiscord]

I have wasted some money trying to find a good fit for my purposes, and couldn't find any so far. But here's my problem.

My family has been harassed by some criminals and I was looking for 2 types of camera, the first is LPC, which I found, the other type of camera is to identify the criminal face.
Here's the problem with most of 4K cameras that I found.

First, they're wide in view because of their 2.8mm lens, and so I cannot see the criminal face from 20m distance.
Second, even if I get a varifocal 4k cameras, I cannot predict which direction the criminal will come from, so I don't know which area to zoom the camera in.

Are there some specialized IP cameras like the LPC that can get you the face of some criminal say from 20 meters away, given that they might come from any side?
A budget camera would be great too

Also, I'm not looking for A.I features that has object detection. Those won't help, because I need the details on the face of the person approaching my house so I can hand it over to the police as a proof.

Edit (extra thoughts/ideas I have):
I was thinking about something just now. If I can place a PTZ camera that follow this rule:
If a person came from the left of the house, or the right of the house, then zoom in, capture the person's face, and then zoom back and reset to idle position.

But where can I find this PTZ camera with such a feature.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah a 2.8mm will never capture at 20m distance.

See this thread for the most commonly suggested cameras based on distance to IDENTIFY:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

A PTZ is great but if that is your only camera, it will be looking left and someone would come from the right. It is a great compliment to an existing system, but you need fixed cams.

Regarding plates, keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

 

[Santeesticks]

+1 to what @wittaj said

@tmcdiscord, just a heads up, what you're trying to achieve is not going to be obtainable with a one and done camera. I'm also unaware of any budgetary constraints you have but this is likely going to be a somewhat expensive venture. What I'm envisioning based on the information you have provided is in addition to the license plate cameras you'll need at each point of vehicular ingress and egress is multiple overview cameras and possibly multiple PTZ cameras. But it will depend on camera placement, the areas you're trying to cover, and any buildings or obstacles in the way; and we haven't even gotten to lighting yet. I'd recommend posting a drawing of your site including measurements for members of the forum to evaluate and provide feedback!!!

Another thing I'll mention is even with all the cameras in the world pointing at your subject if they're wearing a simple baclava you may have to tie them to any criminal activity at the location through other means which is where your license plate cameras will be invaluable...

 

[The Automation Guy]

Edit (extra thoughts/ideas I have):
I was thinking about something just now. If I can place a PTZ camera that follow this rule:
If a person came from the left of the house, or the right of the house, then zoom in, capture the person's face, and then zoom back and reset to idle position.

But where can I find this PTZ camera with such a feature.

PTZ cameras may sound like a "do everything" solution, but they carry their own set of limitations and problems. First, a PTZ camera by itself can only react to what it "sees" in it's view. If you have it pointed at the right side of the yard, it isn't going to "see" or react to anything going happening on the left side of the yard. If you have it set to be a wide view that captures lets say a 180 degree view, it can zoom in on action, but if there is multiple people or multiple events in different locations, it may only focus on one subject and not any others, etc, etc, etc. In other words, the camera is always going to be "blind" to everything except that it is looking at at any given moment. If it's zoomed in on a person walking their dog past the left side of your yard, it is going to miss the perps who are up to no good on the right side 100% of the time.

You can partially solve this by using "spotter" cameras. Cameras that are static and cover a specific area (maybe one camera covering right and one camera covering left). When these spotter cameras register a "trigger' (however you define that), it will automatically move the PTZ camera to a predetermined location to cover that area. If either of the spotter cameras pick up more movement, you can set the system up to either move the PTZ camera to the new movement, or stay on the original movement until it stops. But again, the PTZ camera can only be pointed at one place at a time, so it is very easy to think of scenarios where you simply won't be able to cover everything, even with spotter cameras. The good thing of spotter cameras however is at least you still have the static footage of them in addition to the footage the PTZ camera is providing. So even if the PTZ is pointed in the wrong location to pick something up, the spotter cameras should provide at least some footage (although perhaps not clear enough to use for identification purposes).

The other problem with PTZ cameras is the tend to be much larger and much more expensive than regular cameras of similar quality/performance. Also, if the PTZ camera has automatic tracking (not all do), how well it performs tends to be a direct correlation to the price. The cheaper the camera, the worse the autotracking performs. If you want something that is going to have really consistent auto-tracking, you probably need to plan on spending at least $1000 on a PTZ camera.

 

[CanCuba]

As the others have said, a PTZ combined with spotter cams would probably be your best solution. I've recently installed a PTZ (Dahua SD1A404XB) and it's performing very well doing face capture at up to 22m. Here's a thread which shows some of the captures that I've been getting:

SD1A404XB: Face detection beast

I finally got my mini-PTZ mounted in it's final position. It's about 5.5m (18 feet) from the sidewalk and 6m (20 feet) up. When I'm able to get it properly mounted (corner bracket, etc) it will be about 2m (6 feet) lower than it is now. But in the meantime, this thing is capturing almost 100%...

ipcamtalk.com

And another before it was properly mounted:

Face detection snaps at distance

For @wittaj As requested. From the SD1A404XB 4MP (2.7mm to 12mm focal length) temporarily mounted 7m above street level: At about 18m @ 12mm focal length (4x zoom) At about 13m @ 12mm focal length Through a chain link fence 10m @ 12mm focal length j From a Dahua N85ENF2 4K (2.8mm...

ipcamtalk.com

This particular PTZ is a smaller, more subtle form factor which I love. It's virtually impossible to see which was the lens if facing at any given time. Even I have to stop and stare at it hoping to see where it's oriented.

With my spotter cams, it's performing wonderfully. I have two IR illuminators going up next week to give me consistent face detection at night. I'm hoping that it's reach will be almost as far as during the day once the IR iluminators at properly oriented and the camera dialed in.

I also have a N85EFN2 (US version of the Color-4K/X) from Dahua. It does face detection during the day and is used as a spotter cam at night. The pictures are clearer but with it's 2.8mm lens, it's far from able to pick out every face during the day. I still get about 500 face captures a day, many duplicates and some seemingly random non-face objects, from people walking, riding bicycles, riding motorcycles and even in the passenger seats of vehicles traveling at 25km/h.

Living in a heavily trafficked, both foot and vehicle, are with a rising crime rate, I like to be able to review the several hundred people who pass by my property on a daily basis.

 

[tmcdiscord]

+1 to what @wittaj said

@tmcdiscord, just a heads up, what you're trying to achieve is not going to be obtainable with a one and done camera. I'm also unaware of any budgetary constraints you have but this is likely going to be a somewhat expensive venture. What I'm envisioning based on the information you have provided is in addition to the license plate cameras you'll need at each point of vehicular ingress and egress is multiple overview cameras and possibly multiple PTZ cameras. But it will depend on camera placement, the areas you're trying to cover, and any buildings or obstacles in the way; and we haven't even gotten to lighting yet. I'd recommend posting a drawing of your site including measurements for members of the forum to evaluate and provide feedback!!!

Another thing I'll mention is even with all the cameras in the world pointing at your subject if they're wearing a simple baclava you may have to tie them to any criminal activity at the location through other means which is where your license plate cameras will be invaluable...

Here's an image taken from Amcrest 5mp camera positioned at the far left of my house.



I have also made drawings to show the measurements. First, the width of the street in front of my house is 15m wide, and my house is 25m long. The two blue persons is where the suspicious person might come from, either from left or right. And they might also stand in front of the house at the far front.

 

[tmcdiscord]

Yeah a 2.8mm will never capture at 20m distance.

See this thread for the most commonly suggested cameras based on distance to IDENTIFY:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

A PTZ is great but if that is your only camera, it will be looking left and someone would come from the right. It is a great compliment to an existing system, but you need fixed cams.

Regarding plates, keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

View attachment 147985

Thanks, I will check those links out. I did buy the 2MP 5241-Z12E, got it 2 days ago. I just need to install it now. Also, I think I might need another one, each pointing at the opposite direction, just in case a car came from the right, and then it went back again without going forward where the camera is pointed at.

 

[wittaj]

If you are using the Z12E for plates, make sure to look at the LPR subforum where many of us have posted our settings as a way to get started.

 

[mat200]

Welcome @tmcdiscord

"Second, even if I get a varifocal 4k cameras, I cannot predict which direction the criminal will come from, so I don't know which area to zoom the camera in."

Thus you will need more cameras ..

Many of us when we started thought we could do a lot with only a couple of cameras.

Bottom line, is that many of us end up with 2-3x more cameras than we originally expected to have.

Here's an image taken from Amcrest 5mp camera positioned at the far left of my house.

View attachment 148019

I have also made drawings to show the measurements. First, the width of the street in front of my house is 15m wide, and my house is 25m long. The two blue persons is where the suspicious person might come from, either from left or right. And they might also stand in front of the house at the far front.

Second, even if I get a varifocal 4k cameras, I cannot predict which direction the criminal will come from, so I don't know which area to zoom the camera in.

 

[CCTVCam]

I'm no expert on LPC so stand to be corrected but it looks to me as if you could capture the Licence plates with a single LPC mounted next to the Amcrest and focused onto the middle of the road just behind the black vehicle. This angle should capture a plate irrespective of the direction a vehicle is travelling in. The only issue I see is it's a very wide road and if the vehicles aren't parked out front, you could be focused in the centre and have the criminals pass by or park in the side. To that extent, LPC could be problematic and might require several cameras to cover the full width. I think 1 is doable but it's going to depend on your road and whether it's always parked both sides forcing cars down the centre or whether there are times when vehicles can drive up either side by the kerb.

So far as capturing perps is concerned, this looks ideal for 2 cameras crossed by pointing back towards each other mounted at about 7.5 feet - I'd normally suggest a bit lower but if dealing with pro gangs, it might be better to put it just out of reach whilst keeping it low for good facial recognition. I'd also trim the bush in the centre to prevent it obscuring the view. I'd keep the Amcrest as an over view camera. As for focal length for the other two, a varifocal might give you the answer you're looking for or be the best solution. It looks reasonably bright so you might get away with a 5442 in forced colour at night. Failing that additional light at night. If I were to guess a possible lens without experimentation, it might be a 3.6mm but that's a guess. A varifocal is the best way to get the best view or most accurate determination of a fixed length. That said, there isn't a varifocal 4kx yet so varifocal = 5442 whether you like it or not should you choose that route, You could get a varifocal 5442, mount it in each location in turn and determine theright focal length from the settings, then get 4kx for those locations and resuse the 5442 in for eg your drive or courtyard or behind your house or watching your front door. Endless possibilties. Just be aware as well 4kx don't have IR so if you don't have enough light for colour at night, you're stuffed unless you add additional lighting. Some food for thought.

 

[CanCuba]

Welcome @tmcdiscord

"Second, even if I get a varifocal 4k cameras, I cannot predict which direction the criminal will come from, so I don't know which area to zoom the camera in."

Thus you will need more cameras ..

Many of us when we started thought we could do a lot with only a couple of cameras.

Bottom line, is that many of us end up with 2-3x more cameras than we originally expected to have.

Absolutely true in my case. I initially bought 12 cameras and mounted 10. I'm now up to 14 and will have the 15th mounted soon. Just one more and my NVR will be maxxed.

Fortunately, my partner understands the importance of proactive surveillance as she went to a military school.

We're also shopping for an alarm system to mount a couple 100db sirens.

 

[tmcdiscord]

PTZ cameras may sound like a "do everything" solution, but they carry their own set of limitations and problems. First, a PTZ camera by itself can only react to what it "sees" in it's view. If you have it pointed at the right side of the yard, it isn't going to "see" or react to anything going happening on the left side of the yard. If you have it set to be a wide view that captures lets say a 180 degree view, it can zoom in on action, but if there is multiple people or multiple events in different locations, it may only focus on one subject and not any others, etc, etc, etc. In other words, the camera is always going to be "blind" to everything except that it is looking at at any given moment. If it's zoomed in on a person walking their dog past the left side of your yard, it is going to miss the perps who are up to no good on the right side 100% of the time.

You can partially solve this by using "spotter" cameras. Cameras that are static and cover a specific area (maybe one camera covering right and one camera covering left). When these spotter cameras register a "trigger' (however you define that), it will automatically move the PTZ camera to a predetermined location to cover that area. If either of the spotter cameras pick up more movement, you can set the system up to either move the PTZ camera to the new movement, or stay on the original movement until it stops. But again, the PTZ camera can only be pointed at one place at a time, so it is very easy to think of scenarios where you simply won't be able to cover everything, even with spotter cameras. The good thing of spotter cameras however is at least you still have the static footage of them in addition to the footage the PTZ camera is providing. So even if the PTZ is pointed in the wrong location to pick something up, the spotter cameras should provide at least some footage (although perhaps not clear enough to use for identification purposes).

The other problem with PTZ cameras is the tend to be much larger and much more expensive than regular cameras of similar quality/performance. Also, if the PTZ camera has automatic tracking (not all do), how well it performs tends to be a direct correlation to the price. The cheaper the camera, the worse the autotracking performs. If you want something that is going to have really consistent auto-tracking, you probably need to plan on spending at least $1000 on a PTZ camera.

About the spot and PTZ strategy, I was thinking about it while reading your post, and thought to have two static cameras opposite to each others to cover the right and left side as you have suggested, and a PTZ camera in the middle. And then, when any of the spotter cameras detect a person 20m away for example, it will communicate with the PTZ to make it point to that object, and then it has to zoom in, and take a picture of it.
I have 2 questions though, what software I can use to make such communication possible (e.g. first camera detect, then send commands to 2nd camera to do such and such). Second question, is it possible to make it remember that it has pointed at that direction already and took a picture so it can point at another direction in case there was traffic for example e.g. more than 3 people in the street?
Thanks

 

[wittaj]

About the spot and PTZ strategy, I was thinking about it while reading your post, and thought to have two static cameras opposite to each others to cover the right and left side as you have suggested, and a PTZ camera in the middle. And then, when any of the spotter cameras detect a person 20m away for example, it will communicate with the PTZ to make it point to that object, and then it has to zoom in, and take a picture of it.
I have 2 questions though, what software I can use to make such communication possible (e.g. first camera detect, then send commands to 2nd camera to do such and such). Second question, is it possible to make it remember that it has pointed at that direction already and took a picture so it can point at another direction in case there was traffic for example e.g. more than 3 people in the street?
Thanks

An NVR or Blue Iris can do it.

Here is a post I created that contains info on how to do it with either system, but you have way more customization to do this with BI to accomplish what you are saying:

Using Spotter Cameras to direct a PTZ where to look in an NVR or Blue Iris and setting a spotter cam as a priority in Blue Iris

We get this question from time to time, so I thought with the recent addition to BI, it made sense to have a thread we can point to. Previously in BI, if you had more than one spotter cam, you could not make one a priority, so if spotter cam #1 triggered the PTZ and it starts tracking and...

ipcamtalk.com

And then you need an autotracking camera such as this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-SD49425XB-HNR-Starlight-Network-Tracking/dp/B082XX9LJ6/ref=sr_1_11?imprToken=eNnu.Pmf5hsW5hcTVECAQg&linkCode=w61&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1670900232&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&slotNum=0&sr=1-11

 

[tmcdiscord]

An NVR or Blue Iris can do it.

Here is a post I created that contains info on how to do it with either system, but you have way more customization to do this with BI to accomplish what you are saying:

Using Spotter Cameras to direct a PTZ where to look in an NVR or Blue Iris and setting a spotter cam as a priority in Blue Iris

We get this question from time to time, so I thought with the recent addition to BI, it made sense to have a thread we can point to. Previously in BI, if you had more than one spotter cam, you could not make one a priority, so if spotter cam #1 triggered the PTZ and it starts tracking and...

ipcamtalk.com

And then you need an autotracking camera such as this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-SD49425XB-HNR-Starlight-Network-Tracking/dp/B082XX9LJ6/ref=sr_1_11?imprToken=eNnu.Pmf5hsW5hcTVECAQg&linkCode=w61&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1670900232&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&slotNum=0&sr=1-11

Thanks, if I want to use an NVR instead of BI, is there a specific model I need to use? I'm thinking of the Amcrest NV4108E-A2 4K 8CH model. If this isn't suited to my needs, do you recommend a certain model? Thanks again

 

[Santeesticks]

Here's an image taken from Amcrest 5mp camera positioned at the far left of my house.

View attachment 148019

I have also made drawings to show the measurements. First, the width of the street in front of my house is 15m wide, and my house is 25m long. The two blue persons is where the suspicious person might come from, either from left or right. And they might also stand in front of the house at the far front.

@tmcdiscord, this image of your site still leaves a lot of unknown areas you may be trying to cover; based on your initial post I was envisioning 360 coverage of a property. If you're only trying to cover the area shown in the image you posted it should be pretty straightforward to mount a single auto tracking PTZ to achieve your goals. As @wittaj recommended the 49425 is probably your best bet unless you can manage to get ahold of a 49225 (lower pixels but better night performance.) I still don't have a complete picture of your site but based on what you've provided if this is a dead-end street a single LPR might suffice depending on how far the street continues out of the field of view of your image to the left. If it's a one-way street that exits on the other side you'll want two LPR's in the event the vehicle you're trying to capture the plate on doesn't have a front plate. If you're at a "T" intersection you'll need an additional LPR camera and if you're at a 4-way intersection add one more. I'd probably start with it focused on the street by the parked white car to flatten the image a bit and hopefully be able to take advantage of the additional lighting provided by what I believe is a streetlight between your place and the white car. I'll attach a drawing to show it visually. With the image you provided I can't tell if there are driveways along the non-wall side of the road but if there are those are usually good paths to take with a LPR to minimize parked vehicles obstructing your view. LPR setup is very site dependant and it's possible @CCTVCam's recommended focus area would work better. You'll simply have to experiment with it...

 

[tmcdiscord]

@tmcdiscord, this image of your site still leaves a lot of unknown areas you may be trying to cover; based on your initial post I was envisioning 360 coverage of a property. If you're only trying to cover the area shown in the image you posted it should be pretty straightforward to mount a single auto tracking PTZ to achieve your goals. As @wittaj recommended the 49425 is probably your best bet unless you can manage to get ahold of a 49225 (lower pixels but better night performance.) I still don't have a complete picture of your site but based on what you've provided if this is a dead-end street a single LPR might suffice depending on how far the street continues out of the field of view of your image to the left. If it's a one-way street that exits on the other side you'll want two LPR's in the event the vehicle you're trying to capture the plate on doesn't have a front plate. If you're at a "T" intersection you'll need an additional LPR camera and if you're at a 4-way intersection add one more. I'd probably start with it focused on the street by the parked white car to flatten the image a bit and hopefully be able to take advantage of the additional lighting provided by what I believe is a streetlight between your place and the white car. I'll attach a drawing to show it visually. With the image you provided I can't tell if there are driveways along the non-wall side of the road but if there are those are usually good paths to take with a LPR to minimize parked vehicles obstructing your view. LPR setup is very site dependant and it's possible @CCTVCam's recommended focus area would work better. You'll simply have to experiment with it...

Thank you for the drawing, and sorry if I caused confusion about how my area looks like. So I have made a drawing like yours with details about my area.
RA means residential area, it's just some homes together. The red lines are the streets measurements. There's also an empty land behind my home that a person can sneak from. purple arrows going both ways means cars can go in both direction and it isn't limited to one direction in the street. also, cars have plates both at front and behind the car. Raw image is attached

 

[CCTVCam]

You definately need surveillance around the back as anyone spotting it on the front will likely go around the back to see if that's covered as well. You may need it down the sides as well if there are doors or windows, or if there's a chance someone might wait down the side for you to come out. Not quite sure what your situation is, but it sounds as if you have fallen foul of some pretty bad people and so can't rule out them waiting up the side to assault you or worse when you come out. I think all round surveillance might be needed.

You also need to look to other solutions such as high security doors and locks, an alarm with panic and monitoring and if these people are making threats against your person, maybe a safe room and or means of self defence in so far as they are legal in your locale.

I kind of want to say, if there are threats against your person and these are really bad people, it might be safer moving and setting this up at a new location as a just in case. However, I don't know how bad it is and I appreciate you might not want to or be able to move.

 

[tmcdiscord]

You definately need surveillance around the back as anyone spotting it on the front will likely go around the back to see if that's covered as well. You may need it down the sides as well if there are doors or windows, or if there's a chance someone might wait down the side for you to come out. Not quite sure what your situation is, but it sounds as if you have fallen foul of some pretty bad people and so can't rule out them waiting up the side to assault you or worse when you come out. I think all round surveillance might be needed.

You also need to look to other solutions such as high security doors and locks, an alarm with panic and monitoring and if these people are making threats against your person, maybe a safe room and or means of self defence in so far as they are legal in your locale.

I kind of want to say, if there are threats against your person and these are really bad people, it might be safer moving and setting this up at a new location as a just in case. However, I don't know how bad it is and I appreciate you might not want to or be able to move.

Thanks for the heads up about the backside, actually, they once threw big rocks from the back side on the yard of my home. They also shut off electricity on my home, the gray box on the right you see in the picture I posted above taken from the Amcrest. Back then, I didn't have any cameras installed. And then, in one of their attempted harassments, we luckily took a photo from phone as they were waiting outside in the car, and then we went to the police and they were caught. And we also learned later that they were drug dealers. It has been 1 year now, and they got out of prison, they made a couple of calls threatening us, and now I need to gear up my house.

Also, it's really difficult to change home since it's unpredictable when they would show up, before they were caught, they would harass us around every other month or 2 months.