Another reolink headache

[wittaj]

Hi @Zohar

Please post the video at night, with the subject walking normally and then standing for a smoke, and once again walking with a lit cigarette / cigar / joint / ...

I would really like to see a good image capture of a moving subject at night / in low light from Reolink.

At this time, I have not yet seen it and thus am eagerly looking forward to you sharing quality image capture by Reolink.

And like many before, we ask and never see.....that in and of itself is a testament to the poor quality of these cameras at night...

 

[Dannyboy51577]

And like many before, we ask and never see.....that in and of itself is a testament to the poor quality of these cameras at night...

I cant fault people who dont just want a basic low cost setup for buying them. But apparently that's all you are getting. They arent going up against anything of high quality.
The part of that whole process that drives me nuts is their tech support/cust svc.

They are still emailing me almost every day asking if I tried this or tried that.
I copy and paste the same answer over and over, but after a dozen messages they still dont get it and dont have a legit tech type support. Just someone reading off a script

 

[wittaj]

I cant fault people who dont just want a basic low cost setup for buying them. But apparently that's all you are getting. They arent going up against anything of high quality.
The part of that whole process that drives me nuts is their tech support/cust svc.

They are still emailing me almost every day asking if I tried this or tried that.
I copy and paste the same answer over and over, but after a dozen messages they still dont get it and dont have a legit tech type support. Just someone reading off a script

We don't fault people that want a basic low cost setup to let them OBSERVE what is going on around them, but we got dozens of folks that come here and state they get great quality images with Reolink at night and we ask them to prove their quality with video or freeze frame picture from an object in motion, and it is just crickets to never be seen from again, or if they do provide, this is as good as it gets:




Of course Reolink will continue to engage with you, they want to push you beyond the return period. We have seen dozens of folks here over the years get burned on that tactic and then be stuck with the gear.

Most of our experience with the 1-800 call centers of Reolink, Night Owl, Nest, etc. is that we know more than they do. They have a script of the 15 most common questions and outside of that they are useless.

 

[Dannyboy51577]

We don't fault people that want a basic low cost setup to let them OBSERVE what is going on around them, but we got dozens of folks that come here and state they get great quality images with Reolink at night and we ask them to prove their quality with video or freeze frame picture from an object in motion, and it is just crickets to never be seen from again, or if they do provide, this is as good as it gets:

View attachment 135701


Of course Reolink will continue to engage with you, they want to push you beyond the return period. We have seen dozens of folks here over the years get burned on that tactic and then be stuck with the gear.

Most of our experience with the 1-800 call centers of Reolink, Night Owl, Nest, etc. is that we know more than they do. They have a script of the 15 most common questions and outside of that they are useless.

Yeah, it's most likely some cust svc person with a script.
I returned mine already. Hard to even say they are a good value. I mean for the money, they are less than the mainstream Swann or lorex in alot of cases, but what you get in return some could argue doesnt even justify the savings
I guess to each their own

 

[NRA_guy]

I have a security camera (Reolink 5-MP Super HD) that overlooks a neighborhood street that runs in front of my house. The street is about 75 feet from my house. My security camera does great during daylight at recording details of passing vehicles, but the camera's built-in infrared lights don't show details of passing vehicles at night. So I have bought and tried several supplementary IR lights. They do a great job at lighting stationary objects, but vehicles passing at around 40 miles an hour are just a blur.

That is a result of the camera's slow "shutter speed" during black and white recording under infrared light.

To make night time videos, the camera records one image about 12 times each second---which is about 0.083 seconds per image. A vehicle going 40 MPH travels about 5 feet in 0.083 seconds, and that results in blurred image of the moving vehicle. It's similar to using a slow shutter speed in a single lens reflex camera.

Unfortunately, most objects of concern in security camera night time recordings are moving; so they are blurred.

Example:


Do Dahua and Hikvision systems do a better job at night time car motion that goes from left to right?

But I will say that, contrary to some other comments, I have found Reolink's customer support to be top notch. They quickly respond with accurate information, and they speak good English. Reolink customer support is better than that of any company of any kind that I have ever dealt with.

 

[eyeball]

I cheaped out and bought some reolink cameras...bad move. They work fine for the most part with BI but I have shadowing and reliability problems with them. I also have some 8mp Amcrest cameras that are much more reliable, but I don't really like them either. I had a hikvision bullet cam that was good but a firmware application bricked it. At some point in the near future I'm going to replace them all with something else. It pays in the long run to do it right to begin with even though it's more expensive. Now I have to re-do the whole thing and the prices of cameras is of course way more expensive now thanks to the potato sh head occupying the WH.

 

[wittaj]

Um, yes Dahua and Hikvision do a better job at night time because they will adhere to the settings you put into the camera....

You may be about the only one that says Reolink customer support is top notch LOL. They are responsive, I will give them that.

So Reolink, and many consumer grade cameras and almost every cloud based camera, know that the naive consumer favors a bright static image, so the firmware is written to provide that. That comes at a cost of poor motion at night - the blur city and missing bodies of Reolinks LOL. This is what you are experiencing.

These cameras may let you "set" the parameters, but the camera will override any user settings the the camera believes are in error because those cameras algorithms are written to provide a nice, bright, STATIC image over anything else. I have a cheaper camera that lets me "set" the shutter. If I set a shutter for 1/10,000 at night, the image should be pitch black. But nope, the image still looks nice and bright because the cheapo camera internally says "user error on the shutter speed" and makes it what it wants it to be for a nice bright image...

Let's take a look at capturing plates at night. Whether you make the FPS 1FPS or 1,000 FPS, if the shutter isn't right, it won't get the plate. At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my Dahua 2MP 5241-Z12E camera running 8 FPS with a shutter speed of 1/2000:



So Reolink will brighten the image and how is that done, by slowing the shutter, regardless of what someone may set. It will also up gain, brightness, and other parameters to give that great static image, but then motion is a blur. You cannot set a reolink to get the image above because it will favor a bright images as the firmware says "stupid user doesn't realize a shutter that fast will be a black image."


Here is a recent example someone posted from a Reolink that is similar to yours, except they have incredible visible light and streetlights. Here is a freeze frame capture from their camera of a vehicle traveling about 15ish MPH under the streetlight, so about as ideal as you can get. Looking at this picture one would think it was middle of the day because they have so much light, but it was middle of the night 1am. Look at all that blur. I can tell it is a white car, but cannot tell make/model or if it is even a 2 or 4 door.






I have nowhere near that light quality at night (look how long the shadow is of this vehicle compared to the tiny shadow of the vehicle in this image that is basically underneath the vehicle because they have so much light). Here is a capture from my camera at middle of the night 2am with no streetlights and just the floodlights off my house at about 15ish MPH:





I can make out color, how many doors, make, model, etc.

The only way this is possible is by having a camera with the proper focal length for the distance one wants to cover, proper MP/sensor ratio, and a camera where you can manually change the parameters and the camera actually adheres to your settings.

I will say that vehicle capture at night is one of the most difficult captures to get, but you can certainly get better than your image with a real camera. This is a car traveling 45MPH. I prefer color so I am willing to sacrifice a little blur since I have a camera setup to capture plates. I could get a cleaner image running infrared, but I prefer to run color.



It is worth repeating....Many cameras like Reolinks and other cheapo cams let you "set" the parameters, but the camera will override any user settings the the camera believes are in error because those cameras algorithms are written to provide a nice, bright, STATIC image over anything else, but that comes at a cost of blurred motion at night.

 

[wittaj]

I cheaped out and bought some reolink cameras...bad move. They work fine for the most part with BI but I have shadowing and reliability problems with them. I also have some 8mp Amcrest cameras that are much more reliable, but I don't really like them either. I had a hikvision bullet cam that was good but a firmware application bricked it. At some point in the near future I'm going to replace them all with something else. It pays in the long run to do it right to begin with even though it's more expensive. Now I have to re-do the whole thing and the prices of cameras is of course way more expensive now thanks to the potato sh head occupying the WH.

Wow you have provided a lot of lessons learned here!

• Buy once, cry once. Don't cheap out as you will replace with better quality.
• Reolinks were a bad move.
• 8MP Amcrest is more than likely on a 1/3" sensor, which is a great sensor for 720P but horrible for 8MP.
• Do not update firmware unless you are for sure that the camera will accept it AND it is known to fix a problem you have. Most firmware updates are to fix a security vulnerability, but since we isolate the cameras from the internet, it is a useless firmware update. Very rarely does a firmware update actually state what it is for and rarely is it providing any benefit from a performance standpoint.
• Camera prices have gone up because of who is in the WH.

A common theme around here is don't fix what ain't broke. If the unit is working and meets your needs, in many instances an update breaks what you had working and provides you with something you didn't need or bricks the camera. In most instances, updates are simply security vulnerability patches (usually years after the breach was found), but since we do not give our cameras internet access, the update is useless to us.

You really need to be asking yourself why are you updating? If it is just for grins and giggles or OCD behavior to be running the latest firmware, think twice.

Here are issues I have seen people report here where they were upgrading just for the sake of upgrading:

• A Dahua Z12E that someone updated and then constantly reboots comes to mind.
• The Dahua 49225 and 49425 PTZ that loses autotracking with an update come to mind.
• The Hikvision DS-2DEA425IW-DW PTZ that loses autotracking with an update comes to mind.
• A Hikvision ANPR camera losing half the FPS and loses the ability to read US plates - those are big deals to have happen.
• A Hikvision ANPR DS-2CD4A26FWD camera that lost all ability to read plates - kinda makes the camera useless.
• A Hikvision camera that the user lost ability to control the LED light function at night.
• A Hikvision wifi camera that loses the ability to use wifi after a firmware update.
• Dahua 5442 that will not allow playback of the SD card.
• Countless other instances where the camera or NVR simply bricked and became useless.
• Countless examples where the camera or NVR went into Chinese.

Don't do it unless it is fixing a problem you are experiencing or adds a feature you really need.

Further, it is best to obtain any firmware updates from the vendor you purchased it from so that you do not run into issues. Any firmware you find here or elsewhere is obviously proceed at your own risk. We have many threads here where someone tried an update with a firmware they found on the internet and bricked their unit.

Many units being sold are Chinese hacked units into English that will either brick or go into Chinese upon updating. Some vendors will be upfront and tell consumers that as part of their website, but many do not or the consumer forgets...here is one such example....

 

[eyeball]

Wow you have provided a lot of lessons learned here!

• Buy once, cry once. Don't cheap out as you will replace with better quality.
• Reolinks were a bad move.
• 8MP Amcrest is more than likely on a 1/3" sensor, which is a great sensor for 720P but horrible for 8MP.
• Do not update firmware unless you are for sure that the camera will accept it AND it is known to fix a problem you have. Most firmware updates are to fix a security vulnerability, but since we isolate the cameras from the internet, it is a useless firmware update. Very rarely does a firmware update actually state what it is for and rarely is it providing any benefit from a performance standpoint.
• Camera prices have gone up because of who is in the WH.

A common theme around here is don't fix what ain't broke. If the unit is working and meets your needs, in many instances an update breaks what you had working and provides you with something you didn't need or bricks the camera. In most instances, updates are simply security vulnerability patches (usually years after the breach was found), but since we do not give our cameras internet access, the update is useless to us.

You really need to be asking yourself why are you updating? If it is just for grins and giggles or OCD behavior to be running the latest firmware, think twice.

Here are issues I have seen people report here where they were upgrading just for the sake of upgrading:

• A Dahua Z12E that someone updated and then constantly reboots comes to mind.
• The Dahua 49225 and 49425 PTZ that loses autotracking with an update come to mind.
• The Hikvision DS-2DEA425IW-DW PTZ that loses autotracking with an update comes to mind.
• A Hikvision ANPR camera losing half the FPS and loses the ability to read US plates - those are big deals to have happen.
• A Hikvision ANPR DS-2CD4A26FWD camera that lost all ability to read plates - kinda makes the camera useless.
• A Hikvision camera that the user lost ability to control the LED light function at night.
• A Hikvision wifi camera that loses the ability to use wifi after a firmware update.
• Dahua 5442 that will not allow playback of the SD card.
• Countless other instances where the camera or NVR simply bricked and became useless.
• Countless examples where the camera or NVR went into Chinese.

Don't do it unless it is fixing a problem you are experiencing or adds a feature you really need.

Further, it is best to obtain any firmware updates from the vendor you purchased it from so that you do not run into issues. Any firmware you find here or elsewhere is obviously proceed at your own risk. We have many threads here where someone tried an update with a firmware they found on the internet and bricked their unit.

Many units being sold are Chinese hacked units into English that will either brick or go into Chinese upon updating. Some vendors will be upfront and tell consumers that as part of their website, but many do not or the consumer forgets...here is one such example....

Excellent commentary, particularly on updating firmware. I had been under the impression that updating firmware to the "latest" was to address security vulnerabilities; as you say, isolating cameras from the internet on their own network is the correct answer to security.

What would be your choice for a homeowner 'standard' camera? I'm going to replace all 6 of these reolinks. I have 2 Amcrest 8mp now-- they seem to be "ok" but maybe it's time to step up to a Dahua or Hikvision. The snaps you included above (particularly the license plate capture at night) are impressive.

Thanks for the information & quick response!

 

[sebastiantombs]

The current "goto" camera series is the Dahua 5442 series. 4MP on a 1/1.8" sensor, or the Hikvision equivalent.

Here's a list, with links to reviews, of the current good performing cameras. They all use the correct sensor/resolution combinations needed to provide good night vision with motion when properly "tuned" to the specific location -

Review - 8MP 1/1.2" sensor full color camera

Worlds First Review - Dahua - IPC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED - Full Color 4K Camera

Intro I’m excited to be doing another Worlds First Review. this time as I mentioned in the full color thread, I’ve been testing the new Dahua full color 4K camera. This was provided courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY for a fair, honest, no holds barred, unbiased review. I’ll attempt to answer any and...

ipcamtalk.com

2021 Full Color 2.0 Has a Fantastic New Dual Lens Camera

Hey guys The full color 2.0 has been released. Most cams I already posted here. Like: IPC-Color4K-X Bullet 4MP Motorized Full color. Today I bring a secret model, 1st release for the Dual-Lens Full color model in the world. Dual-lens Camera( Sample at Early Sep ) Ø Dual light fusion...

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Dual Sensor 4K

Review: Dahua DH-IPC-MFW7442K1-Z4-T40 - Dual Sensor (4MP + 4MP) Bullet Camera

Hope all of you are doing well ! Intro Its time to do another review and this time (as you may have seen in my Coming Soon video), we have 2 of them. Both of these cams are from the same MFW-7x42K1 family and feature dual sensors. I have the 7442 (4MP) and 7842 (8MP) versions of these cams...

ipcamtalk.com

5442 Reviews

Review - Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret

Review-OEM Loryta IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal 4mp camera (Dahua)

IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal from @EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret Varifocal Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $200.00...

ipcamtalk.com

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

All, thanks to Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY ) we have a new 4MP AI camera for testing. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This camera is using the OEM model number of IPC-B5442-ZE which is the equivalent of the Dahua IPC-HFW5442-ZE for reference. The IPC-B...

ipcamtalk.com

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ Turret

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $160 Link to camera...

ipcamtalk.com

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Turret, Full Color, Starlight+)

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+)

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Andy's Email: kingsecurity2014...

ipcamtalk.com

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Bullet Network Camera

Review: OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Pro AI Starlight Full-color Fixed Bullet

Many thanks once again to Andy @EMPIRETECANDY we have for testing the OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Starlight+ Full Color bullet. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This is a fixed 3.6mm bullet (Pro AI) series with the 1/1.8” sensor. It has no built in...

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2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal

Again courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY EmpireTech Andy we have a new cam to look over. Its a new model in Dahua's new Lite H265 Series of cam's. Available for purchase here: Aliexpress.com - Online Shopping for Electronics, Fashion, Home & Garden, Toys & Sports, Automobiles and more Price is approx...

ipcamtalk.com

3241T-ZAS Review

Review-OEM IPC-T3241-ZAS 2mp AI Lite series Varifocal

IPC-T3241-ZAS from EMPIRETECANDY 2MP WDR Turret Varifocal AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Purchase in the IPCT Store Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

Excellent commentary, particularly on updating firmware. I had been under the impression that updating firmware to the "latest" was to address security vulnerabilities; as you say, isolating cameras from the internet on their own network is the correct answer to security.

What would be your choice for a homeowner 'standard' camera? I'm going to replace all 6 of these reolinks. I have 2 Amcrest 8mp now-- they seem to be "ok" but maybe it's time to step up to a Dahua or Hikvision. The snaps you included above (particularly the license plate capture at night) are impressive.

Thanks for the information & quick response!

We have all been there buying cheap stuff LOL.

Now that I have learned at my own expense, I have realized that OPTICAL zoom is much more important than MP. All of my examples above are from my 2MP cameras!

I started with the big box store kit that had four 2.8mm cameras and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens. I LOVED IT WHEN I PUT IT UP. I could see everything that would be blocked looking out the windows.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened. I was so furious my system let me down.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera if the camera is installed less than 9 feet hight. At 40 feet out or a higher install you need a different camera.

And like most, I stuck these wide angle cameras on the 2nd story to be able to see even more, which then means any IDENTIFY distance is lost vertically. Someone needs to be within 10-13 feet to identify someone with a 2.8mm lens. A camera placed 16-20 feet up means the entire IDENTIFY distance is lost in the vertical direction. They could be one foot away horizontally, but at 20 feet high, you will only get a good shot at the top of the head...

So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.

I agree with @sebastiantombs above that the 5442 series is the current king of the hill, but there are instances where you need more optical zoom than what is in that series, and that would then be the 2MP versions.

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera and not an 8MP. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!



Here are my general distance and camera recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well. These particular cameras are generally accepted by many here as the best balance of performance, price, and features. With all the cameras I have used and tested over the years, these are the ones I also currently use.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm or the 4K/X - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• T5449H-ASE-D2 2.8mm fixed lens - anything within 10 feet of camera where the object would be in a backlit condition at night
• 5441F-AS-E2 (AKA Boobie cam) or E3241F-AS-M- great choice for a front door camera. The boobie cam can have one lens pointed down for packages
• T5241H-AS-PV - Great little active deterrence camera with two way talk. Good for anything within 10 feet of camera or as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE or 5842-ZE- varifocal up to 13mm- distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - varifocal up to 32mm - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - varifocal up to 64mm - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR
• 49225 PTZ - great auto-track PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

Here is a thread I put together demonstrating the importance of focal length over MP:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[eyeball]

sebastiantombs & wittaj - THANKS for the excellent information! I have gotten much help from ipcamtalk over the years - it'd be hard to live without it and the knowledgeable folks like yourselves willing to take time to share valuable information. I'll be signing up for the ipct plus membership today - I didn't know anything about it until today - the BI cloud backup looks great.

Thank you again - I'll post once I get going with replacement cameras.

 

[wittaj]

sebastiantombs & wittaj - THANKS for the excellent information! I have gotten much help from ipcamtalk over the years - it'd be hard to live without it and the knowledgeable folks like yourselves willing to take time to share valuable information. I'll be signing up for the ipct plus membership today - I didn't know anything about it until today - the BI cloud backup looks great.

Thank you again - I'll post once I get going with replacement cameras.

Feel free to create a thread with your questions as you make that move!