Analysis paralysis with system design

[mooch91]

Hi all,

I've read tons of threads here about camera placement and camera selection. If I had an unlimited budget, unlimited resources, and infrastructure to support 20 cameras, I'd be able to meet many of the principles you all shoot for in your designs. I see criteria like cameras watching cameras, visibility vs. face/plate recognition, and so on. Unfortunately, I'm limited to about 4-5 exterior cameras for my home to give me decent visibility and some detailed recognition for more critical areas as needed. With this in mind, how do I design a system when I have some constraints?

House is a two-story colonial (the second story level represented by the blue edge in the attached picture (I'm trying to avoid camera placement here because I believe they will be too high up). There are 6 entrances: front door, basement door, garage man door, rear porch door, and two double garage doors. Each of these is highlighted in yellow in the attached picture. I have come up with a tentative design for 5 cameras: one doorbell cam at the front door, two cameras located between the garage doors monitoring opposite directions, one along the side of the house watching the garage man door, and one at the rear porch watching its entrance as well as the basement door entrance. All of these locations are highlighted in red. All cameras would be located under the soffits on the first-story level of the house.

I know I'm missing some windows and have a whole side of the house which is unmonitored. I may try to capture those points later or capture them with indoor cameras at some point.

Can I get any feedback on my camera layout plan (again, assuming the constraint of no more than 4-5 cameras)?

Also, I'm looking at 5MP cameras with 2.8mm lens and 1/2.7" sensor. Seems 2MP is recommended for nigh viewing; will these 5MP units be adequate as a starting point for my purpose, once again, considering my budget and infrastructure constraints?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Flintstone61]

5Mp 2.8 mm 1/2.7 hardware is good for daytime close range, or indoor lighted area's. If you can run your garage lights at night with a low consumption LED 9w 5000k you could probably see in color at night. It's just that the movement of people in color at night with these cams will be blurry. Or if you can run IR, out there, you can run a faster shutter, and reduce/eliminate the blur.
You will definitely see motion with those cams in al locations. But you will have to set it up, and make the tweaks, and be ready to possibly buy 1 or 2 different cams after you see where your weaknesses are.
Maybe buy 3 of the proposed cams, run all the wires to the locations. and install the mounting box/junction boxes. and try each loacation with your 3 cams. then you will know what you need.
I have all kinds 5MP 1/2.7 cameras around my house. they were part of a Coscto/Nightowl setup. they give you motion events. they see great with daylight. but have to run in IR at night to see anything without additional illumination.
I have 5 Amcrest 5MP 1/2.7 at work here, indoors. they are fine. they give me the data i need to see who took the Shopping cart and didn't return it, Who threw trash in the recycle Bin. who is lurking in the laundry rooms. who didn't put money in th emachine and then tried to complain about a refund.
the ony plates you'll see are going to be 10-20 feet away on a static, parked vehicle in the driveway. The only color description you can give the authorities about a vehicle will bein the daytime. 99% of my parking lot problems happen at night. I had a lighting company comeout and light that fucker up like the Field of Dreams, I run Color 24/7 out back with a 5442 6mm in B/w as LPR.
Cops wont come to take a report, and watch the video, if I don't have a plate, and a vehicle color and potential make or model, and /or suspect description.

 

[mooch91]

5Mp 2.8 mm 1/2.7 hardware is good for daytime close range, or indoor lighted area's. If you can run your garage lights at night with a low consumption LED 9w 5000k you could probably see in color at night. It's just that the movement of people in color at night with these cams will be blurry. Or if you can run IR, out there, you can run a faster shutter, and reduce/eliminate the blur.

Thanks, I should mention the cameras are IR/Starlight technology. Should get some detail, though not color, at night.

 

[sebastiantombs]

My first comment is to move the cameras on the garage from both being in the center to one on each side and think, seriously, about a third in the center.

Startlight, FullColor, ColorVu and all the other terminology is just that, terminology from the marketing department. It means nothing technically and has no technical specification associated with any of those terms. To be blunt, 2MP will work well on a 1/2.8" sensor. 4MP will work well on 1/1.8" sensor. 8MP will work well on a 1/1.2" sensor. Those 5MP cameras with a 1/2.7" sensor are sharing the available light with over two and a half times the number of pixels, sensor elements, as a 2MP so they will need two and a half times the light to perform as well as a 2MP camera.

 

[wittaj]

The words Accusense, ColorVu, Dark Fighter, Starlight, etc. are indeed simply marketing hooks and do not represent a specific technology advancement or feature....it is simple a marketing term used to supposedly sell the consumer on the ability to have good night vision. The actual sensors and capabilities of the camera is more important.

This is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy a system based on marketing terms like Starlight as this camera is marketed as having Starlight.... Could this provide anything useful for the police? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:

Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you

 

[mooch91]

Thanks on the "Starlight" marketing. I'm not buying in to the hype, just responding to Flinstone61 who suggested IR was relevant. Wanted to acknowledge that the selected cameras were IR.

 

[Flintstone61]

all you can do is buy it, hook it up, and see how it works. maybe after 6-12 months you may want to upgrade a camera or two. based on your results.
it's a learning process.

 

[Flintstone61]

I got a box with a few discarded cameras in the garage. and one 3241ZAS 2mp audio camera to put up on the home Garage this spring. and a 5231 z12 to hide in the old Hose reel along side the house.

 

[The Automation Guy]

Use the IPVM Calculator to verify the DORI stats using an overlay just like your drawing. Open the calculator up and change your address to the location you want to model. Then "Add camera" and on the right side next to "Generic Camera", select the "Choose camera" button. This will allow you to choose a specific camera model from a huge database.

Once you choose a specific model, you will get a very good idea of how far the camera will give you effective recognize and observe footage. It's pretty accurate if you enter in the correct mounting heights, etc. You can also turn on "blind spot" indicator that does a good job at showing what the camera can't cover very close to the mounting location. This way you can place a camera where you have marked in your diagram and actually get a visual reference to how close or far away an object can be and still be identified (represented by the dark blue shading of the camera coverage). The mid blue shading represents the "recognize distances and the light blue the Observe distances. If the camera has a variable focal length, the shading will change with the focal length adjustments.

IPVM Designer / Calculator

Using Google Maps, layout and design cameras, choosing from 10,000+ models, delivering FoV and image quality previews plus export to PDF, Powerpoint and more

calculator.ipvm.com

 

[wittaj]

Do keep in mind though that the calculator is a rule of thumb calculator and works fairly decent at closer ranges, but the image you would get at longer distances, say at 175 feet for a camera capable of 175 feet will look much different in real world. The image they will show is from a picture taken like 10 feet from the person and the optics on these cameras just are not good enough to produce an image that good at longer distances. You may even see noticeable differences past about 40 feet or so.

 

[The Automation Guy]

The other thing you have to do is prioritize the actual risk levels at your location. It doesn't sound like you want to install enough cameras to cover ever square inch of the house, and honestly I don't think most people need to do that. I think you are fine to concentrate your efforts on the front of the house and the back patio as you have initially chosen.

I think you will want at least one camera like the Dahua IPC-HFW5442E-Z4E to cover farther down your driveway. You will need wider angle cameras as you have noted, but the "identify" range of those cameras will probably only be about 15-20ft. That's barely covering one car parked close to the house. A camera with a more zoomed in field of view that is focused down the driveway will give you the ability to identify people as the walk up or drive up to the house at distances of around 30-60'. Either type of coverage (wide and more zoomed in) is probably not great by itself, but having both views can be very powerful. Something like the Dahua IPC-HFW5231E-Z12 will allow you to reach out even further down your driveway.

As far as the camera on the right side of the house, there is little reason to capture footage there except for the entrance near the garage. I probably would want coverage for that door since it is so close to the driveway. However, you have the camera way down at the other end of the house which places the door well outside of any "identify" range. I'd move that camera much closer to the door with the goal of covering that entrance and not trying to cover the entire side of the house.

Doorbell cameras are great, but not super high quality. Many of us supplement the doorbell camera with another camera like a Dahua IPC-HFW5442T-ZE to get high quality coverage and another view other than the doorbell camera. If you put that camera to the left of the door pointing to the right, you will coverage of people coming down the walkway towards the door.

That leaves just the patio camera. Again I think a Dahua IPC-HFW5442T-ZE is probably the best bet there. You can get something with a wide view here, just understand that it will only give you "observe" coverage at normal and far distances. However you can place it near the entrance door to get "identify" coverage up close to the door where it counts.

Hopefully that helps.

 

[mat200]

Hi all,

I've read tons of threads here about camera placement and camera selection. If I had an unlimited budget, unlimited resources, and infrastructure to support 20 cameras, I'd be able to meet many of the principles you all shoot for in your designs. I see criteria like cameras watching cameras, visibility vs. face/plate recognition, and so on. Unfortunately, I'm limited to about 4-5 exterior cameras for my home to give me decent visibility and some detailed recognition for more critical areas as needed. With this in mind, how do I design a system when I have some constraints?

House is a two-story colonial (the second story level represented by the blue edge in the attached picture (I'm trying to avoid camera placement here because I believe they will be too high up). There are 6 entrances: front door, basement door, garage man door, rear porch door, and two double garage doors. Each of these is highlighted in yellow in the attached picture. I have come up with a tentative design for 5 cameras: one doorbell cam at the front door, two cameras located between the garage doors monitoring opposite directions, one along the side of the house watching the garage man door, and one at the rear porch watching its entrance as well as the basement door entrance. All of these locations are highlighted in red. All cameras would be located under the soffits on the first-story level of the house.

I know I'm missing some windows and have a whole side of the house which is unmonitored. I may try to capture those points later or capture them with indoor cameras at some point.

Can I get any feedback on my camera layout plan (again, assuming the constraint of no more than 4-5 cameras)?

Also, I'm looking at 5MP cameras with 2.8mm lens and 1/2.7" sensor. Seems 2MP is recommended for nigh viewing; will these 5MP units be adequate as a starting point for my purpose, once again, considering my budget and infrastructure constraints?

Thanks in advance.

View attachment 120504

Hi @mooch91

You have to prioritize your threats / wants ..

looks like you have few people near you, so perhaps you can mostly focus on the driveway entrance ..

 

[mooch91]

Thanks all - some great info provided. I think I'm on the right track, with some adjustments to both camera selection and camera placement. In general, it seems my logic to focus on some select points has made sense. I'm going to play with the IPVM Calculator, and look at some cameras with alternate lenses to the 2.8mm for certain areas.

It does seem as if the 2.8 is the standard selection for many of the cameras I'm finding readily available online (I've been looking Amcrest).

 

[The Automation Guy]

It does seem as if the 2.8 is the standard selection for many of the cameras I'm finding readily available online (I've been looking Amcrest).

I wouldn't call a 2.8mm focal length an "industry standard" however it is by far the most popular focal length sold for residential settings. This is because these cameras are generally installed by "non-professionals" who only look at the overall coverage and don't understand concepts like DORI. The generally have the mind set of "with a camera in each corner of my house, I can cover my entire property!" They don't understand that while those cameras might provide observation quality footage of their entire property, a subject would have to be within about 12-15' of the camera to actually be able to positively identify them. Once a person begins to understand the DORI concepts and the importance of low/no light performance from their cameras, they generally begin to look at a different set of cameras. Don't get me wrong - a 2.8mm focal length isn't a bad thing when your goal is more of that general observation of a large space and we probably all have them in our systems. But they are not the "one camera does it all" solution that many beginners think they are when they purchase these cameras/kits.

EDIT - I'll use one of my neighbors as an example. Long before I started looking at cameras (so perhaps 10 years ago), they had 4 or 5 cameras installed at their house. I suspect it was a "complete system" that they bought at Costco or somewhere else with 2.8mm cameras (although I have never seen any footage from this system). They have a two story house and mounted the cameras in the eves of the house primarily at the four corners. Because they are mounted 15-20' off the ground, they will never provide clear enough footage to identify a stranger because even if the subject it close to the house, they are probably farther than 15' away from the camera. Not to mention the fact that they are mounted so high and looking down that I'm sure the only thing they capture is the tops of people's heads. That system was a complete waste of money and I'm sure it cost a pretty penny back in the day!

 

[mooch91]

Thanks all, I'm continuing to learn. Playing with the IPVM tool, I'm getting a better feel for the shortcomings of using all 2.8mm 5MP cams. I have played with 4.0mm lenses in the software and can see slight benefits, though it feels like the 2.8s will do a decent job for the entrances if my configuration allows them to be placed close. I might consider at least one varifocal camera (probably the one over/next to the garage) as I think this is going to be one of the most difficult areas for me to predict how to cover because of the length of the driveway. Now to find some available cameras at a decent price point... Will post some updated layout plans for feedback soon.