Grounding Best Practices?

[Webfont]

So after going through this thread I'm now wondering what are the best practices for grounding our cams with all these copper wires sticking outdoors leading back inside.

Someone mentioned grounding the poe switch, but I looked at my c2960x and there's nothing on it to attach a grounding wire.

Do I need one of those gas discharge tube devices for every ethernet cable entering the house?



Do I just connect a bunch of those to some random metal distribution block and up to the ground in my electrical panel?


Or do those ground boxes go outdoors right before going inside?

Do those project the cameras from a surge originating indoors? or they protect the indoors from a lighting strike outside?

Do I need to wire up something to the camera's own grounding terminal?

Bit confused about what's needed and what's a recommended install.

 

[Starglow]

If your switch uses a three-prong power cord then it's grounded through the ground prong on the power cord. Regarding the inline surge stuff it's way overkill unless you have some very expensive equipment hardware to protect. I've worked in IT and commercial network environments for years and we never use the inline Ethernet surge protection because in most cases it isn't warranted, but certainly use power surge protection or a UPS with surge protection. Stay out of your electrical panel because you could get yourself or someone else killed if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[fenderman]

So after going through this thread I'm now wondering what are the best practices for grounding our cams with all these copper wires sticking outdoors leading back inside.

Someone mentioned grounding the poe switch, but I looked at my c2960x and there's nothing on it to attach a grounding wire.

Do I need one of those gas discharge tube devices for every ethernet cable entering the house?

View attachment 180172

Do I just connect a bunch of those to some random metal distribution block and up to the ground in my electrical panel?
View attachment 180174

Or do those ground boxes go outdoors right before going inside?

Do those project the cameras from a surge originating indoors? or they protect the indoors from a lighting strike outside?

Do I need to wire up something to the camera's own grounding terminal?

Bit confused about what's needed and what's a recommended install.

That entire thread is one guy over blowing a problem (2 out of 11 cameras failed after 6 years)....zero surge protection but we dont even know the cause...
Just use a surge protector for the power on your switch and every device on your network and on the ethernet line coming from your modem....make sure its gigabit...
Some ups/surge protectors have coax options however I have found they slow your speeds significantly and or cause other reliability issues.

 

[Mast3r0fN0n3]

That entire thread is one guy over blowing a problem (2 out of 11 cameras failed after 6 years)....zero surge protection but we dont even know the cause...
Just use a surge protector for the power on your switch and every device on your network and on the ethernet line coming from your modem....make sure its gigabit...
Some ups/surge protectors have coax options however I have found they slow your speeds significantly and or cause other reliability issues.

I would appreciate any suggestions and/or "views/reviews" on what surge protection device(s) to use on ethernet, from modem, and/or cameras. I am assuming ups units on the electrical side of devices. Thank you for your feed back.

 

[fenderman]

I would appreciate any suggestions and/or "views/reviews" on what surge protection device(s) to use on ethernet, from modem, and/or cameras. I am assuming ups units on the electrical side of devices. Thank you for your feed back.

Yes, most newer UPS devices support gigabit ethernet surge protection. That said if your service is under 100mbps then you dont even need gigabit.
I would not go crazy on the type or brand as long as its a name brand.

 

[tigerwillow1]

I look at it as a calculated risk: Are the odds of losing one or more cameras to lightning worth the added expense of the surge protectors and the added reliability risk of introducing more connectors? Some of those surge protectors are pretty pricey. I'm willing to sacrifice the switch to lightning so for me protecting the cameras is the only concern. Small lightning events won't hurt the cameras. Really big ones will take them out anyway along with the surge protectors. So what are the odds of a lightning hit where the surge protector will save a camera? I have only the questions, not the answers . In a sense, it's similar to paying for insurance you might never use vs. self-insuring.

I have a few thousand feet of unshielded UTP buried about a foot down. I'm not in a heavy thunderstorm area. There are a few big ones every year with random ground strikes. I've lost one magnetic driveway sensor to lightning, no cameras or switches lost (yet). A few years ago a lightning strike hit a power pole near our church and a whole lot of stuff got fried. Maybe the RJ45 surge protectors could save cameras in a situation like that? Or would the fried switch save the cameras anyway?

 

[Mast3r0fN0n3]

Thank you all for this information. Just wanted to confirm what I have been reading across the web. Greatly appreciated is your time to answer me, thank you all, Merry Christmas.

 

[Teken]

This forum and thousands of others on the interweb can provide you all of the information as it relates to proper grounding techniques and best practices. Having said that, the Internet is also filled with lies and bad information. The topic of grounding isn't very complicated so long as you understand the basics.

• Low resistance Earth ground (<5 - 25 Ohms)
• Single point connection to Earth ground
• All devices are interconnected, bonded to the above using recommended / approved hardware
• Environmental's are taken into account and installed to conform to whatever IP rating while also reducing the impact of corrosion.

The OP's initial question(s) are actually multi part, one being proper NEC / CEC grounding procedures. While the other is about SPD protection which is related to grounding. In the big picture (generally speaking) nobody has to spend a ton of money on proper grounding because if the home / structure was built to NEC / CEC it would meet said code as it relates to proper grounding.

But, this is the real world and NEC / CEC and Human's don't always implement or follow through in insuring proper grounding is done. Regardless, if we ignore for just a moment the home is properly grounded than a couple of simple and free things can be done by anyone in the home.

Assuming you're not dumb and feeble . . .

Go outside and verify the ground rod is sound and properly Bonded and shows no signs of corrosion. That the same ground and its ground wire is properly connected and secure to the inside of the homes electrical panel. If in doubt torque every screw down per the panel makers specification which includes all neutrals within the panel.

Next, go to every outlet and switch and validate all wires are secure and fastened correctly to their respective end device.

Having done the above you at least know all the wires are sound and tight. This in no way means you know you have a low resistance Earth ground present! The only way you'll ever know is to have the same Megged out to determine how much resistance is present and if it meets the threshold At the time of the NEC / CEC.

Ideally it should be zero ohms which is near impossible to achieve based on soil type, moisture, temperature etc.

Regardless, if you have any doubts you can spend $50.XX and pound in a few more ground rods into the ground (properly spaced) and have the same bonded to one another. Doing so will reduce the resistance dramatically and will provide the home with a low resistance Earth ground.

As it relates to SPD (Surge Protective Devices) . . .

Nobody has to spend a dime on any of this . . . People also don't need to spend a dime on any form of insurance either. Those living in Lightning Alley would beg to differ as it relates to needing both low resistance Earth grounding and the use of a tiered SPD system.

They would also affirm the proper insurance and coverage is paramount to be in place and enforced!

On the polar opposite those who live in Tornado Alley will not be the first people to say you don't need a safe room etc.

If anyone intended to invest any money toward a SPD do so within your means and where that money is well spent. In America lots of POCO's will offer or sell you a Type 1 SPD installed at the meter base. If that's the case just scream at them and say Take my money because its money well spent!

Type 2 SPD's are installed at the Service Panel (Breaker)

Both of the above are intended to sacrifice themselves during large voltage spikes. As such they are not intended to protect any sensitive electronics. Type 3 are POU (Point Of Use) at the outlets such as a power SPD strip etc. Generally speaking they are designed and rated to sacrifice themselves at a much lower voltage level.

This is good because the Type 1 / 2 isn't designed for that . . .

Type 4 are typically installed at a device level such as a AC, HVAC, Fire Control, Alarm, etc.

As others have touched upon all of the above can easily costs hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars. The average person can simply buy something now and build on that later. Nothing wrong going that route but would say Spend your money once.

There are thousands of products from Great companies to fly by night that are just - shit.

Why???

Because we as a human race have a completely different mind set as to designing and building things. It's not about making the best and to last forever - its about good enough - making more money again & again.

 

[Denwad]

I can tell you that I have several outdoor cameras that are about 200ft away from my house

Of course i have copper running to them. In the first year we had several lightning storms. I had all the outdoor cameras going to a POE switch , and that POE switch went over copper to the main switch.

The external POE switch fed 5 cameras, 3 of which are on a POE extender. The first year we had a few lightning events which nuked the POE extender 3x and the POE switch 2x. We are talking a few hundred dollars here now.

No lightning was ever really even close, just the induced voltage over the copper was enough to fry the ungrounded POE extender. the POE switch would fare better usually and would only lose a port or two until it couldn't take it.

I found on Amazon a 10 pack of these cheap "surge protectors" that look like fat couplers. They work O.K., I know it isn't proper, but it'll do for now.

Eventually I'm going to ground and bond every camera and switch as the lightning storms here can get pretty intense. Until then I usually just power off the system and that seems to save it for now.

I really need to run fiber from inside to outside as an additional safety measure. And probably fiber to each camera and then use a low voltage transformer with some fat wire to power the media converters. Right now i have a hodge podge of IP cameras, and I want to upgrade them all and protect them as much as possible.

Also it would be neat to get lots of great footage of the lightning storms instead of having to power everything down.

 

[Starglow]

I can tell you that I have several outdoor cameras that are about 200ft away from my house

Of course i have copper running to them. In the first year we had several lightning storms. I had all the outdoor cameras going to a POE switch , and that POE switch went over copper to the main switch.

The external POE switch fed 5 cameras, 3 of which are on a POE extender. The first year we had a few lightning events which nuked the POE extender 3x and the POE switch 2x. We are talking a few hundred dollars here now.

No lightning was ever really even close, just the induced voltage over the copper was enough to fry the ungrounded POE extender. the POE switch would fare better usually and would only lose a port or two until it couldn't take it.

I found on Amazon a 10 pack of these cheap "surge protectors" that look like fat couplers. They work O.K., I know it isn't proper, but it'll do for now.

Eventually I'm going to ground and bond every camera and switch as the lightning storms here can get pretty intense. Until then I usually just power off the system and that seems to save it for now.

I really need to run fiber from inside to outside as an additional safety measure. And probably fiber to each camera and then use a low voltage transformer with some fat wire to power the media converters. Right now i have a hodge podge of IP cameras, and I want to upgrade them all and protect them as much as possible.

Also it would be neat to get lots of great footage of the lightning storms instead of having to power everything down.

It sounds like you just need to buy some better equipment. If you buy cheap surge protectors then don't expect much protection from them because all you're really getting is a false sense of security. I don't know what POE extenders you used but if they have a 3-prong AC power cord then they are grounded. If things are as bad as you described, then powering off the system won't protect it from being damaged unless you disconnect all of the cables too because otherwise the cable path is still there even with no power present.

 

[fps66]

I've been an electronics tech for 40 years working first working on 2 way radios and tower repeaters, then FAA RADAR and automation. I mostly agree with what Teken said. There are some extremes that can be done for lightning protection that I was involved in with the FAA. We don't have government pockets. After I purchased the house I'm in now, I lost communication devices, modem, magicjack, during two storms. I had the dsl wall jack hit twice within 15 seconds destroying it. I installed a gas discharge tube device outside my home where the line enters and grounded it to my house ground. No more problems. Now the device I chose was for a rj45, not two wire dsl. I lost one of the gsd and moved the lines to another one. Since I uncovered the ground wire in the dirt and found it was not connected anymore. It had been connected to a metal pipe. I installed a proper ground rod. Now I have 260 feet of wire antenna for ham radio out there too. I use a GSD on that coax for protection too. It is likely that a GSD saved the radio repeater in the next town. It took a direct strike to the antenna. The antenna blew apart, some welding was done inside the breaker box at the same time. A GSD for the repeater cost about 90$, one for your dsl or network line into your house is about 40$. Money well spent.

 

[The Automation Guy]

I really need to run fiber from inside to outside as an additional safety measure. And probably fiber to each camera and then use a low voltage transformer with some fat wire to power the media converters. Right now i have a hodge podge of IP cameras, and I want to upgrade them all and protect them as much as possible.

Also it would be neat to get lots of great footage of the lightning storms instead of having to power everything down.

Keep in mind that using fiber will negate your ability to use POE.... It sounds like you have a plan for this, but I just wanted to make sure other readers realize this limitation with fiber.

One solution that you can use even now is to get some ethernet to fiber converters. Just put in a short piece of fiber between the incoming ethernet wire and the switch. Again, the will prevent you from using the switch to send POE to the cameras, but you could also try installing some POE injectors on the outgoing ethernet wires after the fiber break (between the fiber converter and the camera). Of course this still means that any potential surge could kill the POE injectors and fiber converter, but after that the surge should be carried down to the high voltage electrical ground system. Odds are your switch would be unaffected by any surge coming in from the camera wires.

 

[Denwad]

It sounds like you just need to buy some better equipment. If you buy cheap surge protectors then don't expect much protection from them because all you're really getting is a false sense of security. I don't know what POE extenders you used but if they have a 3-prong AC power cord then they are grounded. If things are as bad as you described, then powering off the system won't protect it from being damaged unless you disconnect all of the cables too because otherwise the cable path is still there even with no power present.

oh yeah no doubt i need to buy better stuff, but what i've got now has survived a few storms of similar intensity. The POE extender i bought is a POE passthrough device, it is powered via POE and powers up to 3 more POE devices, it has a little pigtail for a ground that I keep telling myself I'll get around to grounding, but never do.

I plan on eventually grounding each end, replacing the non shielded cable with shielded cable, bonding the grounds with 6 ga wire back to the house etc etc.

Until then, I've got a one-cheek approach that's better than nothing.

I have about 600 ft of copper running around outside to various cameras , and I plan on running more.

 

[Oldtechguy66]

As one who lives and maintains properties/equipment in lightning alley (mountains, NC, USA), I can attest that good grounding, cabling, and MULTIPLE SPDs are worth the time/investment. As someone who's also been WAY too close to lightning strikes several times (including running LV cabling when lightning came in through a window near me), you begin to appreciate the magnitude and unpredictability of nature's MeV light show. I've had antennas melted, control panels burnt to a crisp, wall mounted components literally blown off the wall, coax evaporated, PS's smoked, etc etc. Had one of my NVRs fried when lightning flashed directly over the house. Oddly, a roof camera survived (still in use). The NVR survived also, but lost the HDMI output - and the connected HDMI monitor fried. Scrambled the NVR firmware, but was able to reload it - though could only use VGA output. Had clients who lost everything from refrigerators to HVAC controls and more. I recommend all my clients have commercial grade PSPs installed on EACH panel (incl. gen transfer panels), in addition, quality PoU SPDs on all electronics, + LAN/CATV SPDs. There are volumes written on grounding techniques, but we are fortunate to have good ground conductivity in my area; so grounding is not quite as problematic as in arid/sandy soil areas. I've had electricians tell me that SPDs are a waste of time - electricians I no longer use. I have Siemens commercial grade PSPs on our buildings, and despite multiple close strikes in last few years, have lost no more appliances or electronics. Even if you never have to deal with nature's X-ray generator bolts from the sky, you'll still be dealing with some serious utility line transients. So, to me it's worth the time & effort to employ multiple transient mitigation techniques; especially if you live in lightning alley. Not only do we have to be concerned with utility vectored transients, but locally induced spikes (proximity lightning). The large amount of unshielded power conductors (type NM mainly) in a home make a great antenna for nearby lightning strikes - why I prefer to have multiple PoU SPDs spread throughout the bldg. And here's something else I discovered the hard way - reverse ground transients. Lightning strikes near a building, but finds the service ground rods in the path of least resistance... so the surge actually goes up into the bldg, from the ground up. From personal experience working in housing, don't assume the service entrance ground is always viable. I've seen too many grounding hacks and shortcuts, as well as corrosion or mechanical damage. Check, clean, verify, and protect ground connectors with anti-oxidation/corrosion grease. Just my 2 cents, YMMV