looking for a Camera ~300€ / house driveway

[D0bby]

Hey

im looking for a gute driveway Cam.

Actually im using a "Hikvision DS-2CD2185FWD" but im not lucky with the quality in low light / night. And we have a lot problems with condensation in the night.

Greetings

 

[Flintstone61]

How lang is die driveway?

 

[D0bby]

~50 feet / 15m

 

[The Automation Guy]

The Dahua 5442E-Z4E is a great camera with excellent night time performance and the focal length zoom that is going to be required to get coverage that far away.

But you should also check to see if it is going to work by using the IPVM Calculator. You can enter your actual address and overlay this camera model and see the expected coverage area.

 

[wittaj]

I would go with the 5442-Z4E at 50 feet

 

[sebastiantombs]

Follow this thread - Memorial Day 2022 Promotion

Andy ships to the EU, has great pricing and has workaround for "problems" with imports. Plu, with the sale, you may be able to get a really good price and add a second camera!

 

[dsam]

Disclaimer: I haven't bought any cameras yet.

I see many recommendations for the 5442s and I think I understand why. Higher MP in a camera doesn't directly make for a better camera or for a better image.

At the same time, the reviews by Wildcat_1 featuring newer camera models make me wonder if an IPC-Color4K-X camera might not be a better proposition.

Am I missing something here?

 

[The Automation Guy]

Disclaimer: I haven't bought any cameras yet.

I see many recommendations for the 5442s and I think I understand why. Higher MP in a camera doesn't directly make for a better camera or for a better image.

At the same time, the reviews by Wildcat_1 featuring newer camera models make me wonder if an IPC-Color4K-X camera might not be a better proposition.

Am I missing something here?

You are right that chasing pixels isn't always the best solution. You also have to look at the image sensor size. The larger the sensor, the more pixels you can pack onto the sensor and still get excellent low/no light performance. The problem with most "consumer" grade 4k cameras is that they use a very small sensor. Trying to pack that many pixels on a small sensor leads to terrible night time performance. The Dahua 5442 series offers 4mp resolution on a 1/1.8" sensor size. That is the highest number of pixels we recommend on a 1/1.8" sensor size. The IPC -Color4K-X camera has a larger sensor at 1/1.2" which means that even though it has more pixels (8mp vs 4mp) it still has excellent nighttime performance.

The reason why we don't think the IPC -Color4K-X camera will work in your situation is the fact that it is currently only offered in 2.8mm and 3.6mm focal lengths. These are both pretty wide field of views - 112° and 91° respectively. You won't be able to capture detailed enough footage at 50' away to be able to identify a stranger - daytime or nighttime. You need a much narrower field of view to ensure good detail at that distance. If they eventually make a Color4K-X camera in a more narrow focal length, then that would be the best solution. Unfortunately we have to make due with what's actually been released! The suggested Dahua model offers a variable focal length of 8mm-32mm. That's a lot more "zoomed" in than a 2.8mm or 3.6mm lens is going to offer.

That's not to say that you don't need/want a Color-4K-X camera in addition to the recommended Dauha model. For trying to cover anything out to about 25' from the camera, the Color-4K-X is arguably the best option currently. However since your stated goal is to capture detail out at the gate/driveway up to 50' away, it's not the right camera for that goal.

 

[dsam]

You are right that chasing pixels isn't always the best solution. You also have to look at the image sensor size. The larger the sensor, the more pixels you can pack onto the sensor and still get excellent low/no light performance. The problem with most "consumer" grade 4k cameras is that they use a very small sensor. Trying to pack that many pixels on a small sensor leads to terrible night time performance. The Dahua 5442 series offers 4mp resolution on a 1/1.8" sensor size. That is the highest number of pixels we recommend on a 1/1.8" sensor size. The IPC -Color4K-X camera has a larger sensor at 1/1.2" which means that even though it has more pixels (8mp vs 4mp) it still has excellent nighttime performance.

The reason why we don't think the IPC -Color4K-X camera will work in your situation is the fact that it is currently only offered in 2.8mm and 3.6mm focal lengths. These are both pretty wide field of views (over 90 degrees). You won't be able to capture detailed enough footage at 50' away to be able to identify a stranger - daytime or nighttime. You need a much narrower field of view to ensure good detail at that distance. If they eventually make a Color4K-X camera in a more narrow focal length, then that would be the best solution. Unfortunately we have to make due with what's actually been released! The suggested Dahua model offers a variable focal length of 8mm-32mm. That's a lot more "zoomed" in than a 2.8mm or 3.6mm lens is going to offer.

That's not to say that you don't need/want a Color-4K-X camera in addition to the recommended Dauha model. For trying to cover anything out to about 25' from the camera, the Color-4K-X is arguably the best option currently. However since your stated goal is to capture detail out at the gate 50' away, it's not the right camera for that goal.

Thanks for your response! I am actually not the original poster, just someone commenting on this thread. I appreciate the detailed explanation nonetheless.
Not to steal this poster's thread, but if there was a varifocal IPC-Color-4K-X then I am assuming it would become much more attractive due to combining the best features of a 5442 with a higher-res sensor, is that correct?

Also, if I may, with narrower field of views (zoomed-in camera), doesn't the blind spot of the camera also increase (and move forward)?

Cheers

 

[The Automation Guy]

Not to steal this poster's thread, but if there was a varifocal IPC-Color-4K-X then I am assuming it would become much more attractive due to combining the best features of a 5442 with a higher-res sensor, is that correct?

Yes.

Also, if I may, with narrower field of views (zoomed-in camera), doesn't the blind spot of the camera also increase (and move forward)?

Yes.

The IPVM calculator that I linked earlier in the thread has a blind spot indicator that can help determine what the camera will be able to see. It definitely depends on the mounting height and angle (which are details you can enter into the calculator), but it does a pretty good job of estimating actual performance. You might be surprised at how "big" the blind spot gets as the field of view gets narrower.

 

[dsam]

Yes.


Yes.

The IPVM calculator that I linked earlier in the thread has a blind spot indicator that can help determine what the camera will be able to see. It definitely depends on the mounting height and angle (which are details you can enter into the calculator), but it does a pretty good job of estimating actual performance. You might be surprised at how "big" the blind spot gets as the field of view gets narrower.

Thanks again.
I have been playing with the IPVM calculator over the past week and realized that the camera mounting locations I have run wires to aren't ideal.
I am thinking about ordering a 5442 to get the FoV for each mounting location.
Any concerns with ordering all varifocals?

All the best.

 

[wittaj]

Thanks again.
I have been playing with the IPVM calculator over the past week and realized that the camera mounting locations I have run wires to aren't ideal.
I am thinking about ordering a 5442 to get the FoV for each mounting location.
Any concerns with ordering all varifocals?

All the best.

See this thread on the importance of focal length of MP.

Nothing wrong ordering all varifocals. Once you get over the wide-angle see the whole neighborhood but can't IDENTIFY jack $#!+ then you will be glad you have a camera you can zoom in to a tighter field of view. Plus if you ever update cameras (which you will), then you have a varifocal that can be put somewhere else.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[dsam]

See this thread on the importance of focal length of MP.

Nothing wrong ordering all varifocals. Once you get over the wide-angle see the whole neighborhood but can't IDENTIFY jack $#!+ then you will be glad you have a camera you can zoom in to a tighter field of view. Plus if you ever update cameras (which you will), then you have a varifocal that can be put somewhere else.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

Oh yeah, I have seen that post of yours, very helpful and great write-up.
As I said before, I haven't bought any cameras yet and don't know what the actual view would look like (even after using IPVM).

In the case of a side yard, where there is a window on that side wall, should I be looking to identify people at the window (with the camera focusing on the window) or as they approach from a distance?

In IPVM, with the camera mounted under the eaves, to focus on the window I'd have to set a wide FoV, to focus on the yard leading to the side yard I'd zoom in (at the expense of a bigger blind spot)

 

[wittaj]

That comes down to your individual situation and layout - is the corridor such that they can only come from one direction? If so, then getting them at a distance is probably better as they may not be suspecting to be on a camera yet.

If the corridor is not defined and they can get to your window from any direction, then focus on the window with one camera and then an overview camera to cover the blindspot.

Keep in mind the IPVM is simply another tool in the toolbox. After about 30 feet out, do not expect the quality of the images they are showing. And those are based on a camera at about 6 feet, not under eaves, so that comes into play as well.

You didn't say if the eave was a 1st floor or 2nd floor, but 2nd story locations are problematic if you use a fixed lens camera. You need a varifocal and enough distance to "flatten" the angle.

I started with the four 2.8mm cameras and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens. I LOVED IT WHEN I PUT IT UP. I could see everything that would be blocked looking out the windows.

It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera. At 40 feet out you need a different camera.

And like most, I stuck these wide angle cameras on the 2nd story to be able to see even more, which then means any IDENTIFY distance is lost vertically. Someone needs to be within 10-13 feet to identify someone with a 2.8mm lens. A camera placed 16-20 feet up means the entire IDENTIFY distance is lost in the vertical direction. You will get a good shot at the top of the head and hat though LOL.

So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.

 

[dsam]

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing all that.

The side yard I am referring to has people approaching only from the front of the house (backyard is fully fenced in + all neighbors backyards are fully fenced), so unless my neighbor decides to trespass and jump over the fence, or if an intruder comes in the same way, then only the front of the house would be of interest.
It is a single-story house, and the camera mounted under the eaves would sit at ~7ft.
My preference would be to have the cameras notify me only if there is anything of interest in the vicinity of the house, and not on a random person walking their dog in the sidewalk, so that is why I am not sure whether I should focus on the window or on the side yard.

Finally, based on your response, I am thinking that I might need to run more cables to cover all the blindspots

 

[wittaj]

Yeah a tight corridor is a natural pinchpoint, so better to have a varifocal that is optically zoomed in to just that area; otherwise, you have a wide angle that shows more of the house and then can cause IR issues at night. Perps expect to be on camera close to a house, so they will naturally look down, so getting a zoom out a little further may catch them off guard.

Unless the yard is crazy flat, you can probably set up an IVS rule or motion detection that would only notify you when a person is in the intrusion zone and ignore the random person out on the sidewalk.

You will find we can never have too many cameras LOL.

 

[sebastiantombs]

The three basic rules of video surveillance cameras-

Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras

 

[D0bby]

WOW

Thank you for the many and detailed replies.

I think we will go with the 5442E-Z4E - the price here in Germany is ~ 460€ / 484$.

Greetings

 

[sebastiantombs]

Again, see what Andy can do for you regarding a price. You may be very pleased.