Natural Gas Generators

IReallyLikePizza2

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Batteries suck. They are huge, heavy, expensive, and require tons of maintenance. They also have limited life spans.
Old lead acid batteries maybe, Lithium Ion batteries require zero maintenance and are warrantied for 10 years, but I suspect you would get much longer out of them. They are also easily swapped, and not heavy at all

I want batteries so that its an instant switch of power with no downtime, and the 27kw generator won't have to fire up in the middle of the night to power 1000w of load that a battery could sustain with no issues
 

sebastiantombs

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I agree about batteries being somewhat "burdensome" but given technology today it does seem strange that a fully integrated system, solar/battery wall/generator isn't available.

The life of a lithium based batteries is based on charge cycles. Each charge/discharge cycle uses some of the chemicals required to produce power. Generally 200 to 500 cycles is typical for a single or multicell lithium pack. How long they might age, unused but maintaining a proper charge level I have no idea. Also keep in mind that a proper charge level for storage is in the 75 to 80 percent range of a full charge. I would imagine that the battery wall systems maintain the batteries properly and probably cycle them occasionally to keep them healthy.
 
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Teken

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The topic of why something should be in place (batteries) comes up all the time in Enterprise. Having worked in such industries and spaces from a birds eye view it came down to a combination of risk vs reward. If the company was a tight twat it didn't matter what you said or did in terms of offering historic facts. One would think historic data to make a Business Case is the very information a person needs to make an informed decision?!? :thumbdown:

Again, in most IT departments they are usually left with the lowest budgets which doesn't even rank with the person in charge of the stationary! :banghead:

If we just assume its not even a budget issue or having the finances to implement a sound back up / fail over infrastructure it came down to What are the chances and the bulk of them just rolled the dice in hopes of seeing a hard 8.

Regardless, the whole premise of On Line UPS is to insure constant filtered AC power. This eliminates the possibility of dirty power, transfer time, and isolates end devices. Having a On Line UPS allows the generator to spool up and than provide the long term power within the facility. Those interested in doing the same on a consumer level need to understand the vast amount of consumer equipment rarely if ever offer the same I/O and options to run primary, secondary, tertiary, power.

This is made worse when such options are present these same (systems) have limited abilities as to how they will be called to operate in different situations.

One thing many people fail to understand is unless the system is well defined to operate off grid almost all of them will by default operate in Island Mode. Meaning once the system detects a loss of grid power that solar PV system will stop the flow of power to the home. When a person adds a battery to a PV system the transfer switch is supposed to relay all consumer loads to the battery / inverter. Again, some older systems that were grid tied would automatically go into Island Mode and thus would cut off PV generation.

The net effect was the batteries would be consumed but had no way to be recharged while the grid was down and ultimately became depleted. Newer systems have taken that into account and allow the PV to recharge the battery pack while inverting. Which leads to another problem that not everyone is aware of is that not all solar PV systems will allow you to receive power from the PV array vs battery pack.

When a system allows both the battery and solar PV array to supply consumer demand this offers greater power while off setting the need to dip into the battery reserve!

Again, anyone who intends to walk this path needs to ask these basic questions as to how the system will operate when its grid tied. As every maker has slight differences as to how and when such power will be made available - assuming it allows it.

In a home a person should size the battery pack / inverter to the realistic load needed to be powered and for how long. If its for a few hundred watts for one hour a smaller battery pack will save you a lot. The reverse is also true having a larger battery pack which will allow you to save money on fuel costs as (IF) the battery pack is large enough to provide longer run times working in concert with a solar PV that fuel costs to power the generator is reduced ten fold.

With the advances in LiFePO battery technology generally speaking the DOD, and Cycle life has increased dramatically vs other battery chemistries like SLA, AGM, Gel, Lithium etc.

In the ideal situation a home would be powered by the solar PV and any excess is sent back into the grid to reduce the monthly / yearly costs to the consumer. If and when there is a grid down event the system will simply trip the transfer switch and the home will continue to be powered by the solar PV during the day and any extra power requirements are made up by the battery packs. Once the sun goes down the home will continue to operate on batteries until a well defined DOD is seen / met to insure the longest service life. Once that DOD is seen the generator will kick on to do one of two things based on need vs wants.

Ideally, the generator would simply recharge the battery pack to 100% and rinse and repeat. Going this route reduces fuel costs, wear on the generator which equals less maintenance, and obvious noise, and a target on your back as your the only one making noise!

Well, besides the fact you're rocking stadium lights and blasting out 1000000000000 dBs . . . :lmao:

It really comes down to a persons budget, how serious they are, and what measure of so called bullet proof of a system they want to have.

Lastly, one of the major benefits to the Generac system is it allows a person to scale up. While also replacing the large cells vs the Tesla incorporates all of the electronics (transfer switch) and there is zero ability to replace a battery pack / cell. As the entire thing is just a massive (individual) battery pack tied together.
 
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I have a class A diesel pusher RV. It has a 10kw diesel generator, six 6-volt lead acid batteries wired to be 12 volt as house batteries, two 12-volt AGM batteries to start the 15 liter Cummins engine, a solar panel on the roof, an inverter/charger system, and an automatic transfer switch. There are three roof AC units, a residential refrigerator, electric fireplace, electric floor heat, induction cooktop and a microwave. There is no propane and hot water/heat is supplied by a system called AquaHot which has an electric heat element and a diesel burner. And since this is an RV, a 50 amp connection to shore power.

If I am plugged into shore power (being on the grid), the inverter/charger is charging both sets of batteries and if there is sunlight, the solar is also charging the house batteries. I can run all three ACs, and every other electric appliance in the coach at the same time. Though I would obviously not be running the AC and the heat at the same time. If shore power were to go out, as long as I have the inverter switch on, everything will be powered through the batteries except the ACs, floor heat, and the induction cooktop as they pull too much power. I can set the inverter to auto start my generator when the house batteries get to a specific level. The transfer switch is generator priority, which means if the gen is running, it takes power from the gen even if there is shore power.

So in this last freeze here in Houston, I had the AquaHot running on diesel only to provide heat inside the coach and in the wet bay so nothing would freeze. I had the coach plugged into shore power but it is only a 15 amp circuit so everything else is off. I had the auto gen start set at 12.2 volts and to run for 3 hours which would give a full charge to the batteries. I had the inverter set to on so if the power went out it would still run the coach from the batteries.

When the power went out Monday at 2:30am the inverter powered the AquaHot (pumps and control system are 12 volt). But the batteries are getting old and at 11 degrees F, they don't hold their charge well. So when I went there at 8am, the gen was running and all was fine. Batteries were charging and it was warm enough to stop any freeze damage. I set the gen to run continuously and went home. I checked on it daily and once the power came back on, I shut down the gen and set everything back up as before.

The solar is just a single panel. Many folks do install more. Mine will run all 12 volt systems on a sunny day and trickle charge the house batteries. Add more drain (like a TV) and you start to pull from the house batteries.

So I don't see why in a residence you could not have a battery bank that gets charged from the grid and solar, that would supply power if the grid goes down, and when the batteries get low the gen fires up, running the house and charging up the battery bank. Now maybe you would have to manually intervene to shut off the gen and go back on battery, but that should not be too inconvenient.
 

eyeball

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Has anyone gotten one installed? What do you have, and how much did it cost?

In the order of preference I think Kohler is the best, Cummins is second, and Generac is third. However, the Generac units are popular enough I think it may be easier to find parts

Liquid cooled is preferable to air cooled, but almost doubles the cost. Sadly my local Kohler reseller is kind of annoying, so I'm looking at the Cummins units. around $10K for a 22kw air cooled, or $17K for a 22kw Liquid Cooled.

Still trying to decide between liquid or air. I think Liquid would be nice, but is it 7K more valuable than the air cooled? Probably not. They both do the job, and I'm not losing power every week
LP Generac 15kw - had it for 20 years, had to replace the starter and a few battery changes. Regular maintenance (oil, spark plug, air filter), but it still runs fine. Our power went out for 2 days a couple of weeks ago during an ice storm, ran continuously and fine. My neighbor has a 2019 Generac - I could hear his running when I was outside too. Ran great.

Nice and quiet inside the house - decent noise containment.

I purchased the Generac and did all the site prep work (leveling, pea gravel, etc.) and had a local electric company install the panel inside the house and hook it up. Not that it's relevant now, but 20 years ago I spent about 7k on the project.
 

TX0303

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As far as dual fuel portable models go, is there anything quiet and portable beyond the Champion?

Looks like the max is around 3,500 watts for the Champion. I like the dual fuel but I don’t like the small gas tank.

The plan would be to have a propane tank at home for backup purposes and use gasoline for camping.

I despise noisy/cheap generators.

I would like to have 4,000 + watts and 240 volt capability but the Honda’s and Yamahas that offer this capacity don’t have dual fuel.

Your ideas and feedback would be appreciated!


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Go to GeneratorBible.com - Leader In Portable Generators Stats & Comparison and search for dual fuel models. There are several to choose from.
Alternately, most generators that use a carburetor can be converted to run on propane with a conversion kit. Note that LP has less BTUs than gasoline so you get less running watts when on LP.

Edit: Winco has several bi and tri fuel generators that use Honda engines.
 
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IReallyLikePizza2

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I'd much rather buy a Honda one myself and do the conversion, it seems all the Dual/Tri Fuel ones are always these weird Chinese brands
 

Dingoo

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As far as dual fuel portable models go, is there anything quiet and portable beyond the Champion?

Looks like the max is around 3,500 watts for the Champion. I like the dual fuel but I don’t like the small gas tank.

The plan would be to have a propane tank at home for backup purposes and use gasoline for camping.

I despise noisy/cheap generators.

I would like to have 4,000 + watts and 240 volt capability but the Honda’s and Yamahas that offer this capacity don’t have dual fuel.

Your ideas and feedback would be appreciated!


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Yes you can ... like me, I have a Honda EM 5500 CXS, 5.5 Kw gasoline (and I had an LPG inlet built on the generator, I now use both LPG and gasoline). (LPG propane conversion of petrol generators explained). When the generator does not immediately start on gas, I start on petrol and put it on LPG after 5 minutes.

I have a 2000 liter LPG tank so I can run it for as long as I need, just checking if there is enough oil in the crankcase. I am off grid and I need the generator for the solar batteries. If there is not enough sun for a long time, I fill the solar batteries with the generator. As now there has been no sun in Spain for almost 3 weeks !!! that's the first time we've got this, my Honda 5500GTX and it's now running every day until the sun comes back. Good luck
 

IReallyLikePizza2

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Yes you can ... like me, I have a Honda EM 5500 CXS, 5.5 Kw gasoline (and I had an LPG inlet built on the generator, I now use both LPG and gasoline). (LPG propane conversion of petrol generators explained). When the generator does not immediately start on gas, I start on petrol and put it on LPG after 5 minutes.

I have a 2000 liter LPG tank so I can run it for as long as I need, just checking if there is enough oil in the crankcase. I am off grid and I need the generator for the solar batteries. If there is not enough sun for a long time, I fill the solar batteries with the generator. As now there has been no sun in Spain for almost 3 weeks !!! that's the first time we've got this, my Honda 5500GTX and it's now running every day until the sun comes back. Good luck
What's your load like? It seems like it may be substantially less than us wasteful Americans
 

jfjones

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Has anyone gotten one installed? What do you have, and how much did it cost?

In the order of preference I think Kohler is the best, Cummins is second, and Generac is third. However, the Generac units are popular enough I think it may be easier to find parts

Liquid cooled is preferable to air cooled, but almost doubles the cost. Sadly my local Kohler reseller is kind of annoying, so I'm looking at the Cummins units. around $10K for a 22kw air cooled, or $17K for a 22kw Liquid Cooled.

Still trying to decide between liquid or air. I think Liquid would be nice, but is it 7K more valuable than the air cooled? Probably not. They both do the job, and I'm not losing power every week
We had a long term ice/power outage in December 2013 (right before Xmas). That was the straw that broke the camel's back. Decided on a Generac 14kw with a whole house switch.

Installation was completed the following June. On the day the installation was completed (the installers had just left) a letter arrived from my local utility provider. With 14kw generator requirements they stated that I would need to upgrade the natural gas line to my house, estimated at $4k. Reached out to the generator vendor and I had them swap the 14kw with an 11kw.

Had never had any issues and we have had enough outages to say the generator has paid for itself in convince. With 11kw feeding and the whole house switch I still cannot run everything at once but then how often do you run pool pump, air conditioning, dryer, washer, oven, fire up the workshop during a power outage. Typical long power outage the most I ever power I ever was drawing was about 7800 watts. Not having to worry about heating, cooling, lighting or sump pump issues during an outage.

I do have the yearly generator maintenance coupled in with my annual furnace and air conditioning service. Numerous neighbors have Generac or Koehler everyone seems happy. Agree with other commenters that best to have a local service provider.
 

Ace844

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Getting real annoyed that the link between solar, batteries and generators is not better yet.

Last year I looked at Solar + Power Wall, and they told me there is essentially zero link between a generator. So they can't work together at all really, according to them

When the Generac PWRCell came out, I figure it would be perfect, as they lead the home generator market. But no, everyone I have called about it states it doesn't have any integration with generators :banghead:

I want solar + PWRCell + generator. If the power goes out in winter when I don't need my 4 ton AC, I should be able to run on battery until they get low, and then if I turn the AC on, the generator should kick on
IIRC humless in UT has a pwr management battery backup system which allows for generator/solar/battery/power arbitrage to be setup using their smart controller system. I
 

ptzman

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This is what I was referring to: Control Box 8.5 kVa | Solar Panel Charge Controller | Humless There are also several YT vids with demos and further explanations.
The powercell already has a Solar Panel Charge Controller built in. An off the shelf less expensive transfer switch will connect the generator to your main service panel when the powercell fails to produce.

When your incoming primary power from your power company fails, the powercell will kick in very fast just like a UPS (which it is), faster than a generator can start up, keeping the generator off. The generator will only come on if there is no primary power from your power company and if the powercell fails to produce. No power can be fed from the generator to the powercell or the power company, only to your main service panel. The output of your powercell feeds the primary input of the transfer switch, the generator feeds the secondary input to the transfer switch, and the output of the transfer switch feeds the main service panel.

As your Genrac dealer is the box a transfer switch.
 

IReallyLikePizza2

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The powercell already has a Solar Panel Charge Controller built in. An off the shelf less expensive transfer switch will connect the generator to your main service panel when the powercell fails to produce.

When your incoming primary power from your power company fails, the powercell will kick in very fast just like a UPS (which it is), faster than a generator can start up, keeping the generator off. The generator will only come on if there is no primary power from your power company and if the powercell fails to produce. No power can be fed from the generator to the powercell or the power company, only to your main service panel. The output of your powercell feeds the primary input of the transfer switch, the generator feeds the secondary input to the transfer switch, and the output of the transfer switch feeds the main service panel.

As your Genrac dealer is the box a transfer switch.
This won't really work in my case though, as if I got a PWRCell installed, it would provide power, but nowhere near enough power to run all of my loads in summer. So there would be power, just not enough and the generator would never know to kick on

It sounds like Generac have this solved, hopefully they do it well! If the generator ever does need to come on I'd also want it to top off the battery. I've emailed someone from there, if I get any more information I'll post it
 

IReallyLikePizza2

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Alright everyone what do you think,

at 30 hours you need to change the oil. I think they ship them with slightly different spec oil, and it has the smaller OEM Mitsubishi oil filter on it vs the larger Generac one

Would you wait to hit 30 hours on outages/exercise on its own, or run it on load to hit 30 and then change the oil? I think getting the 30 hours on it right away might be good, incase there is a problem. But then I'm "using up" the hours on it too

I really don't want to hit 30 in the middle of an extended outage

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