Need camera recommendations for specific situation

[Slp82]

I have been researching cameras for about 6 months off and on. Well over 30 hours of reading during that time. In the beginning, almost bought a cookie cutter POS system from Costco, but luckily waited to do more research. For awhile I was stuck on Lorec (which research showed later was Dahua). They actually seem like decent systems and when certain models are on sale, seem cheaper than buying individual Dahua cameras and building your own. Plus on certain systems you can pay like $35 extra and get a 5 year extended warranty. Anyways, here is my problem. My wife and I have daughters, and there are little punk boys who like to pull up on the side or front of our house (we are on a corner lot) and throw eggs or shoot paintballs at our house or cars. Their vehicles as well as them are approximately 60 to 80 feet away from the house. The police recommended we install cameras but they said make sure the resolution is high enough that they can identify their faces and license plate numbers. I figured this was simple enough as I would get 4k (8MP) Dahua (or Lorex) cameras. The Lorex system I was looking at orginally had a Sony Exmor R™ image sensor that claim to be able to see 250 feet at night in 4k. Here is the kit if you want to see the specs: 4K Ultra HD IP NVR System with 4 8MP Motorized Varifocal Zoom Lens White Audio Dome Cameras, 250FT Night Vision

Anyways, later I read that pretty much any camera at night is worthless compared to Dahua starlight cameras, specifically the 2MP version. I have seen the comparison photos and it is very obvious it is better. My issue is, from the research I did, I do not think 2MP will get me accurate facial and license plate identification at 60 to 80 feet. I have read that Dahua has a new 8MP starlight, but have not seen any links to it or prices. How does that Dahua 8MP starlight compare to the Lorex (Dahua) 8MP cameras with the Sony Exmor R™ image sensor that claims to have 250 feet of night vision?

My thought process to resolve this problem was to install either LED 10,000 lumen (250 watt equivalent) area lights on the outside of the house which would light up all of our property as well as some of the roadway, so hopefully the 8MP cameras wouldn't struggle in darkness, or possibly even install a external "infrared cannon/blaster" near the camera to light up the area of view.

I just wanted to get all of you more knowledgeable enthusiasts opinions on how to resolve this situation. I appreciate the help in advance!

 

[fenderman]

I have been researching cameras for about 6 months off and on. Well over 30 hours of reading during that time. In the beginning, almost bought a cookie cutter POS system from Costco, but luckily waited to do more research. For awhile I was stuck on Lorec (which research showed later was Dahua). They actually seem like decent systems and when certain models are on sale, seem cheaper than buying individual Dahua cameras and building your own. Plus on certain systems you can pay like $35 extra and get a 5 year extended warranty. Anyways, here is my problem. My wife and I have daughters, and there are little punk boys who like to pull up on the side or front of our house (we are on a corner lot) and throw eggs or shoot paintballs at our house or cars. Their vehicles as well as them are approximately 60 to 80 feet away from the house. The police recommended we install cameras but they said make sure the resolution is high enough that they can identify their faces and license plate numbers. I figured this was simple enough as I would get 4k (8MP) Dahua (or Lorex) cameras. The Lorex system I was looking at orginally had a Sony Exmor R™ image sensor that claim to be able to see 250 feet at night in 4k. Here is the kit if you want to see the specs: 4K Ultra HD IP NVR System with 4 8MP Motorized Varifocal Zoom Lens White Audio Dome Cameras, 250FT Night Vision

Anyways, later I read that pretty much any camera at night is worthless compared to Dahua starlight cameras, specifically the 2MP version. I have seen the comparison photos and it is very obvious it is better. My issue is, from the research I did, I do not think 2MP will get me accurate facial and license plate identification at 60 to 80 feet. I have read that Dahua has a new 8MP starlight, but have not seen any links to it or prices. How does that Dahua 8MP starlight compare to the Lorex (Dahua) 8MP cameras with the Sony Exmor R™ image sensor that claims to have 250 feet of night vision?

My thought process to resolve this problem was to install either LED high lumen area lights on the outside of the house which would light up all of our property as well as some of the roadway, so hopefully the 8MP cameras wouldn't struggle in darkness, or possibly even install a external "infrared cannon" near the camera to light up the area of view.

I just wanted to get all of you more knowledgeable enthusiasts opinions on how to resolve this situation. I appreciate the help in advance!

You dont need higher resolution you need a camera with varifocal so you can have it zoomed in.
Dahua has a varifocal 8mp camera that does well in low light - 2831 but not as well as the starlights. The starlights are available in various levels of varifocal.
The advertising is obviously false as you have learned.

 

[pozzello]

I'd suggest a combination of wider-view high rez cams for 'overview' of what is going on with various other more zoomed in cams
for licence plates and faces. for plates at 80feet, you might be able to use a 25mm lens (assuming 1/3" sensor), but 35mm or 50mm would be better.
Also consider that once dialed in for plates at night, you won't see anything BUT plates & head/tail-lights on that cam,
which is why you want some other 'overview' cam(s) as well...

 

[looney2ns]

See here if you've not cliff notes.
Also see the LPR subject area of this forum.

 

[Slp82]

See here if you've not cliff notes.
Also see the LPR subject area of this forum.

I have actually been reading that for the past few hours. A lot of it I already knew, but there is definitely some very in depth details in there that are interesting. The lux rating seems like the best measurement to compare cameras and cut through marketing BS.

 

[Slp82]

You dont need higher resolution you need a camera with varifocal so you can have it zoomed in.
Dahua has a varifocal 8mp camera that does well in low light - 2831 but not as well as the starlights. The starlights are available in various levels of varifocal.
The advertising is obviously false as you have learned.

I thought about this as well. It seems there is multiple different options to "skin this cat". I thought about getting a 2MP starlight PTZ with 25x optic and maybe using a tracking system to record vehicles. Just wonder how long the camera would last recoding every vehicle coming by my house and moving around a hundred times a day.

The other thing as I mentioned earlier, was getting the best quality 8MP camera with STARVIS sensor and lowest lux rating I can find, and then use one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/CMVision-IR130-198-Outdoor-300-400ft-Illuminator/dp/B004F9LF7E

https://www.amazon.com/CMVision-IR110-114-Outdoor-200-300ft-Illuminator/dp/B003ZX1M88

https://www.amazon.com/Univivi-Infrared-Illuminator-Waterproof-Security/dp/B01G6K407Q

Seems like if you use an IR light like these to light everything up in the cameras view, it would be a more simple solution than having either multiple cameras to accomplish two separate tasks (overview and detailed identification at 60 to 80 feet). I would still use a magnification lens even if using the 8MP with a IR light, but it would be more like 4x to still retain a wider view. Anyone tried something like this? If so what were your results? By the way there are many pictures comparing before and after the pictures of peoples cameras on those amazon links... they seem to work well.

 

[fenderman]

I have actually been reading that for the past few hours. A lot of it I already knew, but there is definitely some very in depth details in there that are interesting. The lux rating seems like the best measurement to compare cameras and cut through marketing BS.

You cannot compare lux ratings across manufacturers. Even with the same brand it's tricky.

 

[Slp82]

Here are a few specs on Dahua 8MP:

IPC-HDBW1831R

Minimum Illumination

0.003Lux/F1.6( Color,1/3s,30IRE)

0.02Lux/F1.6 Color,1/30s,30IRE)

0Lux/F1.6(IR on)

----------------------------------------------

IPC-HFW2831T-ZS

Minimum Illumination

0.004Lux/F1.9( Color,1/3s,30IRE)

0.09Lux/F1.9Color,1/30s,30IRE)

0Lux/F1.9(IR on)


So the 1831 has slightly better performance at night correct? I wish they made this in a turret style camera versus the dome. Anybody know of a 8MP with a lower lux rating than that?

 

[Slp82]

You cannot compare lux ratings across manufacturers. Even with the same brand it's tricky.

Good to know. What is your opinion of those IR lights in combination with a Dahua 8MP camera with low lux rating and STARVIS sensor? Also, my neighborhood does have street lights spread out across the roads. I should have mentioned that earlier. It is not pitch black dark in my neighborhood.

 

[Slp82]

Also, I just want to state, I am listening to your recommendations. I have read many threads on here where experienced members have got frustrated with newbs like me not taking their recommendations. Its obvious for nighttime optimal viewing that the starlight 2MP is the way to go and the gold standard. I just have not seen anyone mention using external high power IR lights in combination with 8MP cameras in an attempt to overcome their shortcomings at night. I am simply trying to think outside the box and address the problem from another angle. Again, thank you for all of your advice, as I assure you it is not falling on deaf ears.

 

[fenderman]

Won't help ..you need varifocal.

 

[Slp82]

Won't help ..you need varifocal.

Ok, so for 65 feet, using a 2MP starlight, what magnification would I need to read a plate number?

 

[Slp82]

Here are some examples of before and after pictures by the way of other people who used IR lights with their security cameras in case anyone is curious.

 

[fenderman]

Ok, so for 65 feet, using a 2MP starlight, what magnification would I need to read a plate number?

You will need two cameras if you want to read plates. See lpr section.

 

[VorlonFrog]

Also, I just want to state, I am listening to your recommendations. I have read many threads on here where experienced members have got frustrated with newbs like me not taking their recommendations. Its obvious for nighttime optimal viewing that the starlight 2MP is the way to go and the gold standard. I just have not seen anyone mention using external high power IR lights in combination with 8MP cameras in an attempt to overcome their shortcomings at night. I am simply trying to think outside the box and address the problem from another angle. Again, thank you for all of your advice, as I assure you it is not falling on deaf ears.

There's an older post here somewhere by user @nayr about an 'I/R cannon' illuminator. I'll see if I can find it. There's also a later post mentioning a different product. Search phrase for AliExpress is "IR Illuminator adjustable focus"

This appears to be the same product originally mentioned by nayr
FYI, I've ordered two of these for the back yard where the turret's IR just doesn't quite reach the areas of interest.

 

[looney2ns]

Don't re-invent the wheel, start reading here: LPR
And use this: IPVM Camera Calculator V3

 

[Slp82]

I have literally been reading for almost 8 hours a day since I posted this. So obviously I had the same misconception that many people have, which is to go high resolution, but to my defense, this is what all the security camera companies push you to believe.

So after a lot more research, I think I am going to go with Dahua Starlight varifocal turrets (IPC-HDW5231R-Z). I will simply zoom them in at areas I know someone will be forced to walk through, such as a gate. This should easily give me facial recognition. As for the license plate, I am thinking of the Dahua Starlight Varifocal bullet Z5 7-35mm (IPC-HFW5231E-Z5) for a dedicated license plate reader. Unless anyone has any other recommendations? These seem to best fit what I am looking for, although the reviews on these were posted back in 2017 by Nayr, hopefully nothing newer/better is available.

Now I need to figure out if I should us a NVR or a dedicated computer with BI to handle everything. I am thinking there will be either 7 or 8 cameras total.

 

[VorlonFrog]

So after a lot more research, I think I am going to go with Dahua Starlight varifocal turrets (IPC-HDW5231R-Z). I will simply zoom them in at areas I know someone will be forced to walk through, such as a gate. This should easily give me facial recognition.

<snip!>

Now I need to figure out if I should us a NVR or a dedicated computer with BI to handle everything. I am thinking there will be either 7 or 8 cameras total.

Technically known as 'choke points' for entrance/exit from your property. Believe me, you'll eventually want more features/flexibility than any NVR provides. Blue Iris is an absolute steal, and inexpensive off-lease Core i7 systems are about $200 to $300 on eBay. Here's an example of today's bargains:

Dell Optiplex 9020 SFF i7 desktop | eBay

 

[anijet]

The IPC-HDW5231R-Z is great if you need audio. If not the Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal is the same camera without audio and second feed channel for less money. I have both and see no difference in performance.

 

[Slp82]

Technically known as 'choke points' for entrance/exit from your property. Believe me, you'll eventually want more features/flexibility than any NVR provides. Blue Iris is an absolute steal, and inexpensive off-lease Core i7 systems are about $200 to $300 on eBay. Here's an example of today's bargains:

Dell Optiplex 9020 SFF i7 desktop | eBay

Thank you very much for that link. I never thought about simply getting a used cheap computer instead of a NVR. So I have read that there are "special" hard drives that are designed specifically for security systems I guess because they are constantly writing 24 hours a day. Would I need to purchase one of those to put in the computer? Also do you all just record 24 hours a day or do you set "trip wires" or motion zones to only record when activated?

The IPC-HDW5231R-Z is great if you need audio. If not the Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal is the same camera without audio and second feed channel for less money. I have both and see no difference in performance.

I appreciate the information! I honestly would only want audio for one at the front of the house. I planned on putting one up in the corner for people coming to the door. Unless someone thinks a dome would be better by the front door? I have just read negative things about the IR reflecting back into the camera off dome lenses, which is why I chose turrets.