Mail post LPR: Off the shelf? / HomeOwner Assoc concerns?

Frankenscript

Frankenscript

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Dec 21, 2017
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Hi folks,

Sorry for the long title... but that pretty much sums it up.

I'm interested in setting up LPR via cameras attached to my mail post. See picture of the post. The street is straight in both directions; no curves within the monitoring zone.

Mail Post.jpg

I have been reading numerous threads, in particular this one:
Hikvision Dedicated License Plate Reading

While I'm happy to go with this sort of setup, based on cameras such as 12mm DS-2CD2325FWD-I mounted to the post, there is another concern that may foil me:

I live in a community with a homeowner's association (HOA), and they require uniformity in the mailbox posts. My community is well-run and the HOA isn't trying to interfere with reasonable use of the property, but on this sort of appearance issue they do have the right I signed over to them to limit what I can do. I will be communicating with them shortly, early in the planning, asking for their input, seeing if they have examples of previous owners' solutions, etc.. Probably I will be the first to bring this up.

The minimally invasive option would be to simply mount one of the turrets on the vertical post under the box, and the other on the horizontal post under the box, both "inside" the frame triangle. Alternatively I could mount them one to a side, bug-eye style, right under where the horizontal post meets the vertical post. But these are all highly exposed, visible, obtrusive. I'd rather make the cameras more discrete, by adding some concealing boards to limit the amount of the camera visible. But this would make the post look different. I don't want to encourage vandalism, or make passers-by uncomfortable.

Post-mounted cameras seem a lot easier than using a much longer lens from way back at my house.

I'm surprised there's no standard solution with two built-in cameras pointed to either side at reasonable (and adjustable) angles, small low profile, purpose-designed for LPR. Or is there? The amount of interest these days in IPCAMs suggests a great market for something that would do the LPR job, two cameras and one POE cable, the size of a double pack of cigarettes. Maybe my next business venture, or is something already out there?

This will be hooked into a Hikvision NVR. Not interested in ALPR at this point; just continuous video recording along with the rest of my system.

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks folks!

Marc
 
If you ask there is a high probability they will simply say no...you are likely better off doing it then address the issue if they bring it up...
 
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fenderman said:
If you ask there is a high probability they will simply say no...you are likely better off doing it then address the issue if they bring it up...
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This would be a recipe for failure in my case. The HOA just elected a new president, and he has made it clear he wishes to prioritize compliance with the covenants. I don't disagree, generally. Further, in the event the answer is a "hard no" I don't want to incur the expense of the cable trench only to then abandon it.

So, there's no "out of the box residential bidirectonal LPR low profile solution?"
 
How many entrances does your neighborhood have? You might instead try to get cameras installed at the entrances, where they can be easily hidden behind the entrance sign or something concealed to keep the road not looking like a surveillance state.
 
Frankenscript said:
This would be a recipe for failure in my case. The HOA just elected a new president, and he has made it clear he wishes to prioritize compliance with the covenants. I don't disagree, generally. Further, in the event the answer is a "hard no" I don't want to incur the expense of the cable trench only to then abandon it.

So, there's no "out of the box residential bidirectonal LPR low profile solution?"
Click to expand...

You can also temporarily trench the line a few inches under the soil using a flat head shovel to move the earth aside and push the cable into the soil an inch or two. Push the soil back together with your feet and it will work for a temporary test.
 
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Frankenscript said:
This would be a recipe for failure in my case. The HOA just elected a new president, and he has made it clear he wishes to prioritize compliance with the covenants. I don't disagree, generally. Further, in the event the answer is a "hard no" I don't want to incur the expense of the cable trench only to then abandon it.
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I would check the HOA to see whether you are forced to pay attorney fees if you lose....if not, go for it, have some fun with it....worst case you remove it and use the cams somewhere else....the trenching is not that expensive...
 
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mlapaglia said:
How many entrances does your neighborhood have? You might instead try to get cameras installed at the entrances, where they can be easily hidden behind the entrance sign or something concealed to keep the road not looking like a surveillance state.
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There are four entrances. If I get denied, and don't find practical sighting locations from the house, requesting the HOA put up cameras is certainly an option, though I'm confident they wouldn't want to go to the expense and trouble to do so. Never hurts to ask, though.
 
fenderman said:
I would check the HOA to see whether you are forced to pay attorney fees if you lose....if not, go for it, have some fun with it....worst case you remove it and use the cams somewhere else....the trenching is not that expensive...
Click to expand...

I believe we are required to pay fees if we lose, but I'm not up for a battle like that. I'll calmly propose some options and ask for their input.

Thanks for the note on trenching... I haven't yet explored costs for that; I just presumed it will be a lot of money. I do need burrow under two sidewalks, presumably using pressurized water excavation. That part may be DIY friendly but the 50 feet or so of trench is beyond my physical capabilities at the moment.

Knowing there's no OTS solution that is slick and nearly invisible is good info. This weekend I'll write something up for the HOA.

Thanks guys.
 
I used to live in a neighborhood with homes very similar to yours, and also dealt with an HOA. As the saying goes, "It is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission". Having said that, is it possible for you to install a brick facade around your post-mounted mailbox?

With a brick mailbox, you could place some strategic openings and mount a couple of bullet cameras to either side. Properly done, the openings would be extremely unobtrusive and could even appear decorative. Some residents might briefly wonder about the openings, but if you mount some reflectors on each side, they will probably dismiss them outright.

2c1f836b521aae73421d6e9c1290a62f.jpg
 
Thanks, but no we aren't allowed to build facades. The mailbox posts are sourced uniformly and need to match. I might get away with minor adjustments such as an extra trim board or two to make the cams less visible. Maybe.

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Frankenscript said:
Thanks, but no we aren't allowed to build facades. The mailbox posts are sourced uniformly and need to match. I might get away with minor adjustments such as an extra trim board or two to make the cams less visible. Maybe.

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That is unfortunate. In that case, a request couched with a "I want to reduce crime in the neighborhood" argument, provided with some drawings of what you intend to do, might be helpful when dealing with the HOA.

It all comes down to the perception of the level of crime in your area. If you live in a neighborhood where property crime is relatively rare, the HOA may perceive your cameras as overreaction on your part. But if auto break-ins and home burglaries are an issue, your neighbors may be perfectly content to let you mount them at your own expense, provided they don't look "ugly". So, presentation is important, hence some good drawings where you go to some effort to hide the cameras in a decorative and unobtrusive manner. You might want to get the help of a professional to produce those drawings.
 
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Thanks @bigredfish

It would be a good idea for me to start with an inquiry to see if the HOA is planning anything already, in which case I would focus my efforts more to my home rather than the street.

It also occurs to me that the turrets could probably be mounted one on top of each other to the rear of the mailbox, and painted black to match the black box, making them somewhat less obtrusive.

I appreciate the support and ideas here. What a great forum!

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wtimothyholman said:
I should also add - don't tell the HOA that the cameras are intended for LPR. You'd just be notching up some peoples' paranoia needlessly. Simply say they're for "video security".
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That's an interesting comment and perspective. My intent was to be clear they were for LPR and not to get videos of spandex clad soccer moms walking their dogs. Let me think on this...

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Frankenscript said:
That's an interesting comment and perspective. My intent was to be clear they were for LPR and not to get videos of spandex clad soccer moms walking their dogs. Let me think on this...

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Well, there's something to be said for that. You're dealing with different attitudes from different people. Yes, you certainly don't want neighbors to think you're being a Peeping Tom, but some people also freak out at the thought that, "You're recording the license plates of everyone who drives by your house?" So your attitude may be the right one for your neighborhood.

When I first mentioned that I intended to put up LPR cameras, a couple of my neighbors had a somewhat distressed attitude. However, after numerous vehicle sideswipes on my street (fortunately no one has been hurt so far), and a rash of package thefts over the holidays, no one questions it at all. I just got my cameras from Andy, and once the electrician finishes pulling the cable, I'll be going online with them.

In this day and age, the police are little help with solving property crime, but a license plate gives them the information to catch the criminals. In fact, "Did you get a license plate number?" is the first question the police ask. Put it that way, and you may find your neighbors supportive of LPR cameras.
 
When I installed my "security mailbox" I got a few questions from neighbors about what they were for. It helped that I already knew them, and after being completely open about what they were for, showing them the camera feeds and how limited they are to just seeing stuff on the street most were pretty welcome after that. Once some shady stuff happened once on our street everyone is in approval. Our HOA doesn't have rules about our mailboxes matching though.

The one thing I don't like about having cameras right on the street is possible vandalism or theft. Sure I'll get their license plate, but the cameras will have to be replaced. I am looking into the Dahua ipc-hfw5231e-z12 and putting them on my garage for license plates, then removing them from my mailbox.
 
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mlapaglia said:
Once some shady stuff happened once on our street everyone is in approval.
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And that is always the key to changing peoples' attitudes. Many people are (rightfully) suspicious of what they may perceive as "Big Brother" video surveillance, even from a neighbor. It's very much ingrained into our culture, which is not really a bad thing.

But what makes people even unhappier is when property crime goes unpunished, with constant break-ins, burglaries, and thefts in the area. I've never made a secret of my cameras. There were a few snarky comments when I first put them up, but it didn't take too many postings of photos and videos on NextDoor showing the criminals who were doing this stuff for my neighbors to start asking what kind of cameras I have.

I live in a nice midtown neighborhood in a fairly big city, and like many inner-city neighborhoods, property crime is endemic. Cars are broken into and occasionally stolen. Garages are broken into. Occasionally homes on the secluded ends of streets (with high fences but no security system) are burglarized. People walk down the streets almost every night, pulling on car door handles to find unlocked cars. The police can do little more than show up, take some fingerprints, and give you a police report for your insurance claim. The change in attitude about video surveillance has been pretty dramatic over the last few years, especially with low-cost high performance cameras becoming available.
 
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