I think I need thermal imaging camera advice

V

valleyforge

n3wb
Nov 11, 2015
28
1
Remote part of Western USA
Hi All,
I seem to have a 2 legged, intelligent varmit problem. I have over 2 dozen IR cameras on my property, but incidents have increased lately and my cameras are being damaged. It appears they are identifying the IR light and reacting to it.

I think a thermal imaging camera may help me and I hope to activate the IR cameras when the thermal camera detects something moving.

Ideally, a thermal imaging camera that offers no location signature (like the IR light), that could autotrack and has 2-axis movement capability as well as outdoor weather features. I have power and ethernet capability at the location.

I am using Blue Iris, so I hope it is supported by BI.

Of course, inexpensive and a built in mic would be nice too.

I looked at the Hikvision DS-2TD2235D-25, but cannot get pricing and it lacks some of my other needs like autotrack and 2-axis.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated...
 
thermal cameras wont identify anything.. they are merely presence detection.. the cheapest thermal Ive seen reported is ~$500 and has a resolution the size of a postage stamp.. a 640x480 thermal camera will cost a couple grand... BlueIris, nor any NVR solution I have seen is capable of turning the IR on cameras in response to an event from another camera.. then back off again when the event has stopped.. You would have to write custom software to even come close to this capability.. and the cameras would need to support this, as most wont let you turn on/off IR via software other than switching from day (color) to night profiles.

this guy's own mother would not recognize him:
thermal_mini1.jpg


Your better off putting up IR illuminators all over, then disable the onboard IR on your cameras and they wont be so easy to detect.

an AutoTracking Thermal w/Pan and Tilt starts off at about $25k, and can exceed 6 figures very fast.. you need a Military sized budget, and government contracts to get your hands on one..

the reason you wont find prices is because if you have to ask how much it costs, you cant afford it.
 
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valleyforge said:
Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated...
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I'd agree on external IR, try to keep the ir illuminators out of reach.

More details = more advice.

How big is the property?
How close are the neighbors?
What kind of property, resi, com, etc?
What kind of cameras do you have?
Where are the cams mounted (a few pics would help)?
How are they being damaged?
Have you managed to record them damaging your cams?
Do you record 24-7 or only on motion?

There may be some non-camera solutions worth exploring. As the saying goes, good fences make good neighbors.

PIR / Microwave motion detectors are going to do more good than a thermal cam.
 
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valleyforge said:
Thanks for the excellent advice. Obviously thermal is not the way to go. I will investigate the PIR / Microwave option.
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I'll assume the vandalism is happening mostly at night. For night time illumination, your options are visible light and IR. Most cameras use 840nm ir which is still visible. You can get 940nm IR illuminators which aren't visible to the naked eye, but most cameras aren't as sensitive to this wavelength (not recommended).

I'd consider a nice fence and some hedge rows of the thorniest shrubs that will grow in your area. Do some searching, somebody here posted a bunch of specific plants in another thread. Pyracantha is one that comes to mind. Cultivating poison ivy to get it to grow on your fence could be fun too.

As much as part of you may want to confront your 'varmints' if you catch them in the act with a gun in one hand and a can of bear spray in the other, it's probably not the best idea.

Storage is cheap enough you may as well record 24-7 and flag motion events. If you want to interface a pir or similar motion sensor, the easiest way is with cameras with alarm i/o. In your case you may want motion sensors to trigger some extensive exterior lighting, a few interior lights after a brief delay, and turn on the sprinklers (or a drip line near the cameras that mists leather dye after a camera is smashed). Vandal domes up higher than most people can reach may be a good idea. You might want to put some super cheap cameras up down low in locations with good coverage by other cams so there's something super cheap for them to smash. Cams with audio are highly recommended you can also add mics to your setup. If you can't see them you may still hear them calling each-other by name. Some concealed cameras may be useful too, but they won't do as much good at night.

What model and style of cameras are you currently running? Bullet, turret, dome? Can you post an anonyomized satellite view screenshot from google maps? How far away is the varmint nest?

When we say IR illuminator, we mean something like this mounted up higher than anyone can reach:
IR-Illuminator-Camera-100-ft-Indoor-Outdoor-Weatherproof-Infrared-IR-CCTV-Surveillance-Security-.jpg
 
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I'm curious why aren't the cameras capturing\recording who is doing the vandalism so they can be ID'd and arrested as the solution?

If the are able to sneak up behind them to do damage, why not have a couple cameras covering a view of each other, (not direct on as I assume IR direct at another cam would wash it out), to cover the attack?
 
nbstl68 said:
I'm curious why aren't the cameras capturing\recording who is doing the vandalism so they can be ID'd and arrested as the solution?

If the are able to sneak up behind them to do damage, why not have a couple cameras covering a view of each other, (not direct on as I assume IR direct at another cam would wash it out), to cover the attack?
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Thanks for your comment. After the first couple of damaged cameras, I did just that, have cameras watching cameras. More costs, but cheaper than replacing the cameras that might otherwise get smashed. It is difficult to add watching cameras as fast as I would like, some cameras have been damaged before I got to it.
 
Consider Hiding some in BirdHouses and think about a nice big PTZ with a good vantage point, with 30x zoom you can see stuff very far off.. even at night, and you can hook up alarm-io up to motion sensors to tell it to check out presets.. so even if you have it parked tight on your driveway/mailbox it can turn to see why motion sensors out of frame are triggering... If you do it right one PTZ can take the job of several fixed cameras, and do it better... which will make swallowing a nice high quality $500 PTZ a bit easier.

They are not shooting your cameras are they?
 
I have mostly Hikvision bullets DS-2CD2035 (4, 6 & 8mm) with a few Huisun ptz turrets HS-SC8405IP in the mix. The varmint nest is nearly a mile from where the vandalism is taking place. I will investigate an IR illuminator solution. Thanks for the suggestion.

PS Before I had cameras, I had security lights. They shot them out with rifles, looked like about a 30 cal to me. I called the law when it happened, they did not even come out to look at it.
 
Yesh, sounds like you have a hell of an issue going on..

Might consider some quality Game Cameras as a backup, since they run off battery they cant afford to keep IR on constantly and instead only flip on when the PIR motion sensor is triggered.. inside a birdhouse or something discrete would be very difficult to detect and disable.. there are also no wires to give away there presence.

You just need a smart phone w/out an IR filter on it and you can find any fixed IR sources pretty easy from a safe distance.. tho I find it hard to believe the'd be watching a camera screen constantly to look for any new sources of IR once they approach.. so if they are fucking w/your IR spotlights you can hook em up to motion sensors to turn those on.
 
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valleyforge said:
Thanks for your suggestions and comments. I do not have much of a clue as to how they are figuring out how to do this stuff, only that it is being done. I will try to follow up on your suggestions.
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you have what I'd call, a pretty interesting problem... how you live in an area where the authorities are not "fussed" about bullets being shot at your home is a bit of a worry...

if I were in your situation, I'd be inclined to go with a multi prong approach, firstly can I ask if the vermin are approaching from a specific direction?

if so I'd be inclined to get some tinted or one way strips put up, so they don't know what they are shooting at (so if the camera is say 8cm in diameter, have a few meters of it spanning along your mounting area) I would also be inclined to have a string of higher zoom lens camera's, 50mm if possible and basically join them side by side to form a 180 degree view, then facing them (so say they were mounted on your eves, if there is a letter box or something say 5-10 meters away I'd have a cam on that, aiming back at the house.

honestly I don't see any point to running camera's on "record on motion only" I've only ever seen it be a pain.

I'd then take a trip to the local cop shop and sit down and ask how many bullets need to hit your house before they consider it a problem... if that were to happen over here, the cops would raid their house and they'd be in an unbelievable amount of trouble, if the cops have no interest, then you could also try laying bear traps around your property.

Most curious to see how you end up
 
I purchased a while back some speco cameras Day/Night with no IR. Perhaps consider some similar technology?
 
MR2 said:
you have what I'd call, a pretty interesting problem... how you live in an area where the authorities are not "fussed" about bullets being shot at your home is a bit of a worry...
...
honestly I don't see any point to running camera's on "record on motion only" I've only ever seen it be a pain.

...if the cops have no interest, then you could also try laying bear traps around your property.

Most curious to see how you end up
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It's called rural america. The cops (and government at large) just don't have the resources they need. You call them they don't show up for an hour or two, if somebody isn't dead they take a few photos apologize for not being able to do much (best case somebody gets arrested in 3 years). Always fun to see how many don't tread on me flags you can spot per square mile.

Yeah record 24-7 and buy some 4-6 TB hard drives.

bear traps, mine fields, etc would just get you put in prison or on the receiving end of a massive lawsuit. Even things like an automated paintball gun turret with ghost pepper paintballs while fun could get you in trouble. Thorny plants and poison ivy are a lot less likely to land you in legal trouble.

I'd be somewhat surprised if they were using tech to locate your cams / ir, probably just looking for the faint red/violet glow. If they were using tech of some kind, night vision goggles would be the simplest.
 
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Apart from having cams covering other cams with 24/7 recording, if they're not being shot out from a distance try having some cams inside your home mounted in some windows with their IR turned off. They can't sneakily vandalize those easily.

Keep the traps in fantasyland. They'll just cause more trouble than they solve both with the law and revenge.
 
No, never any traps, I play strictly legal. I am determined to beat these people without sinking to their level.

Since I installed a number of cameras around my home the vandalism there virtually ceased, except in a few blind spots that allowed some. Frankly, it freaked me out that they were able to watch so closely as to take advantage of those blind spots and do damage. I have since installed additional cameras to cover the blind spots and the cameras are situated in such a way that they cannot be easily seen from someone outside the building.
 
I am looking at a Speco HTINTB9H 700 TVL Intensifier H Indoor/Outdoor Bullet Camera, 5-50mm, but it looks like it uses a BNC connector and it did not see it on the BI list of supported devices.

I bought a couple of BNC to ethernet adapters a few months back, but have not tried them. I would hope I could fold these cameras into BI seamlessly. Were you able to do something like that?
 
After my lights got shot out, I tried a couple of game cameras. They disappeared a few days after I installed them. I am not certain, but they might be used to spy on me now.

The networked cameras give me positive feedback when they are tampered with. The downside is running cables/power to them. Fortunately, I have been able to run buried conduit to most of the sites available for vandalism.
 
Say no to analog. BNC to Ethernet adapters are called baluns, one is required on each end and it's still an analog signal unless we're talking about something a lot more expensive. You'd need an analog capture card, i wouldn't bother.
 
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