What should we do with your systems?

[lp_guy1]

Hello all,

I work at a large venue with systems varying from very antiquated analog black and whites to brand new 4k IP cameras. We have well over 200+ cameras with individual recorders (no centralized VMS but that's a completely separate issue which there is no money for....) across a massive site as well as a number of remote locations that we have remote camera access.

The problem we're having is that we have two separate buildings on analog systems that both need more cameras.
The first building has a 8 channel recorder that has all channels maxed out and our 8th channel is stuck on a sub stream because the recorder literally can not handle it. We already have 2 PTZs on it and 6 static shots but we really need 3 more static shots and 2 more PTZs.

The second building is on a shared 32 channel recorder that has all 32 channels maxed out. Only 5 of those cameras on that recorder are for the second building but we really need as many cameras as we can get (taking into account cost obviously).

What are your guys suggestions on what we should do?
I personally think a change to an IP system for one or both of the buildings is completely out of the question. I've looked at coax to Ethernet converters, etc.. and buying those for all the cameras would take up all the money we have for upgrades.

The only idea I have come up with so far is to buy a 16 channel recorder for the first building to handle the existing 8 cameras + the 5 new ones which would be 13 cameras total and (hopefully) the recorder will be able to handle all of it.
We could then move the existing 8 channel recorder in the first building to the second building so that it can have its own dedicated recorder. This would allow us to add another 3 cameras (we need more but this is a bandaid) to that building.

Current Purchase list:
16 Channel recorder
6 Static shots
2 PTZs
Too much coax wire

I would love to hear if anyone has any other ideas on what might be a better solution. Our budget is very limited.

 

[NewGuyDavid]

Could get wifi cameras. We recently got Weilailife camera set (10 channel nvr with 8 cameras) and they work decently. Otherwise what you got sounds solid to me.

 

[looney2ns]

Wifi and security cameras don't mix and should be avoided at all costs.
They will fail to capture an important event.

 

[NewGuyDavid]

While I do agree that they are unreliable, if they are severely short on funds, it could be a temporary solution.

 

[tangent]

Hello all,

I work at a large venue with systems varying from very antiquated analog black and whites to brand new 4k IP cameras. We have well over 200+ cameras with individual recorders (no centralized VMS but that's a completely separate issue which there is no money for....) across a massive site as well as a number of remote locations that we have remote camera access.

The problem we're having is that we have two separate buildings on analog systems that both need more cameras.
The first building has a 8 channel recorder that has all channels maxed out and our 8th channel is stuck on a sub stream because the recorder literally can not handle it. We already have 2 PTZs on it and 6 static shots but we really need 3 more static shots and 2 more PTZs.

The second building is on a shared 32 channel recorder that has all 32 channels maxed out. Only 5 of those cameras on that recorder are for the second building but we really need as many cameras as we can get (taking into account cost obviously).

What are your guys suggestions on what we should do?
I personally think a change to an IP system for one or both of the buildings is completely out of the question. I've looked at coax to Ethernet converters, etc.. and buying those for all the cameras would take up all the money we have for upgrades.

The only idea I have come up with so far is to buy a 16 channel recorder for the first building to handle the existing 8 cameras + the 5 new ones which would be 13 cameras total and (hopefully) the recorder will be able to handle all of it.
We could then move the existing 8 channel recorder in the first building to the second building so that it can have its own dedicated recorder. This would allow us to add another 3 cameras (we need more but this is a bandaid) to that building.

Current Purchase list:
16 Channel recorder
6 Static shots
2 PTZs
Too much coax wire

I would love to hear if anyone has any other ideas on what might be a better solution. Our budget is very limited.

What type of venue is this?

Do you currently have a network that connects these systems scattered across the property or are they isolated?

What brands/models are the cameras / recorders?

There are cameras and recorders that would work over your existing coax at a higher resolution. Things like a Dahua XVR and HDCVI cameras. The XVR is a bit of a hybrid supporting a few channels of network cameras. I'd recommend caution putting too much money into cameras that work over coax.

For any locations where you're adding a camera, make it a network camera.

 

[mat200]

Hello all,

I work at a large venue with systems varying from very antiquated analog black and whites to brand new 4k IP cameras. We have well over 200+ cameras with individual recorders (no centralized VMS but that's a completely separate issue which there is no money for....) across a massive site as well as a number of remote locations that we have remote camera access.

The problem we're having is that we have two separate buildings on analog systems that both need more cameras.
The first building has a 8 channel recorder that has all channels maxed out and our 8th channel is stuck on a sub stream because the recorder literally can not handle it. We already have 2 PTZs on it and 6 static shots but we really need 3 more static shots and 2 more PTZs.

The second building is on a shared 32 channel recorder that has all 32 channels maxed out. Only 5 of those cameras on that recorder are for the second building but we really need as many cameras as we can get (taking into account cost obviously).

What are your guys suggestions on what we should do?
I personally think a change to an IP system for one or both of the buildings is completely out of the question. I've looked at coax to Ethernet converters, etc.. and buying those for all the cameras would take up all the money we have for upgrades.

The only idea I have come up with so far is to buy a 16 channel recorder for the first building to handle the existing 8 cameras + the 5 new ones which would be 13 cameras total and (hopefully) the recorder will be able to handle all of it.
We could then move the existing 8 channel recorder in the first building to the second building so that it can have its own dedicated recorder. This would allow us to add another 3 cameras (we need more but this is a bandaid) to that building.

Current Purchase list:
16 Channel recorder
6 Static shots
2 PTZs
Too much coax wire

I would love to hear if anyone has any other ideas on what might be a better solution. Our budget is very limited.

Hi @lp_guy1

Is there any related business case for more cameras ?

Loss prevention? Insurance? keeping an eye on work force ? ..

What is the functional goal for more cameras ?

 

[lp_guy1]

Hi @lp_guy1

Is there any related business case for more cameras ?

Loss prevention? Insurance? keeping an eye on work force ? ..

What is the functional goal for more cameras ?

Hello, great question!

Both buildings are target areas for our loss prevention team which, in hand, ties to our insurance. There are severe blind spots, within both buildings, which limits the team's monitoring capabilities and that is why there is a need for additional cameras.

Really the only thing I listed that would be a "nice to have" is the addition of a 4th PTZ on the first building. That would give our operations team additional situational awareness during incidents and wouldn't be an actual requirement for our loss prevention team.

With that in mind, I think it these additions are a reasonable upgrade for our business case. I would love to hear any ideas if you had any.

 

[lp_guy1]

What type of venue is this?

Do you currently have a network that connects these systems scattered across the property or are they isolated?

What brands/models are the cameras / recorders?

There are cameras and recorders that would work over your existing coax at a higher resolution. Things like a Dahua XVR and HDCVI cameras. The XVR is a bit of a hybrid supporting a few channels of network cameras. I'd recommend caution putting too much money into cameras that work over coax.

For any locations where you're adding a camera, make it a network camera.

Hello, thank you for the reply.

This is a large entertainment venue that sees high foot traffic (thousands of patrons could be on the property at any given time).

95% of these systems are individual recorders that are then connected, via ethernet, into our normal network. There is no centralized storage, and high latency because of the recorder hardware limitations and vast distances that everything has to travel. The majority of the newer (past 10 years) additions are all cheap, residential level hardware. These particular locations in question are a mix of Dahua and Amcrest.

I understand the obvious appeal of adding only network cameras but completely converting these systems not only would mean replacing all of those existing analog cameras with new network cameras but additionally having to handle the disaster of all new ethernet runs. I'm talking about having to go 30ft up in a skyjack and repeatedly open drop ceiling panels and bore new holes through walls for hundreds of feet of ethernet cable. For one of the PTZs, we would have to get our bucket truck to get access at it to rerun a ethernet cable.

I'm familiar with HDCVI but haven't heard of XVRs. Is that a recorder that can handle both analog and IP cameras? Something like I can have 8 analog cameras connected and 8 IP cameras connected to that same recorder?

I was assuming I would be safe with analog camera additions since I've seen a number of analog cameras from both Dahua and Amcrest that can record at 5mp or 8mp (I understand network cameras will always be better). Also, the added PTZs wouldn't have a resolution concern and can be 720p or 1080p because of their high zoom (we would be going for 25x or higher).

Thanks for the help!

 

[lp_guy1]

While I do agree that they are unreliable, if they are severely short on funds, it could be a temporary solution.

Hello, I appreciate your thoughts.

WiFi cameras can definitely have their use cases but we have the tools and team to professionally install wired systems that homeowners might not have since we want to mitigate concerns posed by WiFi cameras.

Like any big business, we are able to do anything its just we are only allocated so much money. These additions are technically a "temporary solution" and bandaid but, in reality, will be the lasting solution for probably the next decade.

If we were going to start from scratch with our property and do it right then it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's a decision that's way above my paygrade and would never happen...

 

[tangent]

Hello, thank you for the reply.

This is a large entertainment venue that sees high foot traffic (thousands of patrons could be on the property at any given time).

95% of these systems are individual recorders that are then connected, via ethernet, into our normal network. There is no centralized storage, and high latency because of the recorder hardware limitations and vast distances that everything has to travel. The majority of the newer (past 10 years) additions are all cheap, residential level hardware. These particular locations in question are a mix of Dahua and Amcrest.

I understand the obvious appeal of adding only network cameras but completely converting these systems not only would mean replacing all of those existing analog cameras with new network cameras but additionally having to handle the disaster of all new ethernet runs. I'm talking about having to go 30ft up in a skyjack and repeatedly open drop ceiling panels and bore new holes through walls for hundreds of feet of ethernet cable. For one of the PTZs, we would have to get our bucket truck to get access at it to rerun a ethernet cable.

I'm familiar with HDCVI but haven't heard of XVRs. Is that a recorder that can handle both analog and IP cameras? Something like I can have 8 analog cameras connected and 8 IP cameras connected to that same recorder?

I was assuming I would be safe with analog camera additions since I've seen a number of analog cameras from both Dahua and Amcrest that can record at 5mp or 8mp (I understand network cameras will always be better). Also, the added PTZs wouldn't have a resolution concern and can be 720p or 1080p because of their high zoom (we would be going for 25x or higher).

Thanks for the help!

If you have some old cameras that are old low resolution analog, I'd prioritize replacing those.

That's what I was guessing. If your network is up to it, you may be able to view the feeds from these scattered DVRs in a central location on a computer running a VMS (could also record). It sounds like your network probably should have some fiber to cover long distances but likely doesn't. The capabilities of the DVRs would also be limiting.

I'm not suggesting you replace all of the coax, simply that you should avoid installing any new coax. If your running new cables, choose ethernet. It likely makes sense to replace some of the cameras with newer HDCVI cameras or in some cases to use ethernet over coax media converters.

A word of caution, on this forum we often discuss/promote Dahua's 'international' products rather than their US products. Newer products are available in the international line sooner than the US line and often at better prices. The problem is the US products won't play nice with the international ones. The XVR line of recorders is apparently international. The closest US equivalent models are branded differently as Penta-brid but do still have an X in the model .

If there's Isn't already some thing like this, I'd try to make a list or diagram of all the cameras and recorders throughout the facility with model numbers id known, resolution, and approximate year of installation. This should make it easier to identify what most needs replacement.

 

[NewGuyDavid]

Hello, I appreciate your thoughts.

WiFi cameras can definitely have their use cases but we have the tools and team to professionally install wired systems that homeowners might not have since we want to mitigate concerns posed by WiFi cameras.

Like any big business, we are able to do anything its just we are only allocated so much money. These additions are technically a "temporary solution" and bandaid but, in reality, will be the lasting solution for probably the next decade.

If we were going to start from scratch with our property and do it right then it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's a decision that's way above my paygrade and would never happen...

Hello,

That makes sense. Our business is going with OpenEye mainly. It can take in 3rd party cameras and it's relatively affordable. They do have analog nvrs that will accept 3rd party cameras as well. If you want a good solution that you can standardize, maybe look into them. The IP POE OpenEye NVR we got for one of our locations has 16 ports but you can add a switch to do additional cameras, it can handle up to 32 channels so it's really nice! It costed us about $2500 total with the support provided and shipping.