Starlight/Darkfighter vs. iR illuminators ?

[smoothie]

I am pretty sure that iR illuminators with higher resolution cameras are a better choice than starlight/darkfighter cameras with lower resolutions either with or without iR illuminators. Am I missing something in this opinion ? Should I look at some combination of both, high res fixed cams and starlight/darkfighter ptz with various iR illuminators as needed ?

What are your thoughts, opinions, and such on the matter?

As I am upgrading my setup and bringing it into the 21st Century I would like to try to make as informed a decision as possible in doing so.

Greatest hits of where I am aiming to go eventually (as time and money permit):
10 fixed cams, mostly 2.8mm lenses for wide situational coverage
4 fixed cams with various zoom levels for specific choke points (e.g. side gate, electrical panel, backyard/pool, etc)
2 PTZ covering the 270 degrees of public streets around my house (excludes my backyard and fenced property which is small)
?? iR illuminators as needed to provide good coverage and eliminate dark areas as much as possible.

The equipment I am currently looking at:
Dahua IPC-HDW4431C-A (Does anyone know if these are 3-axis adjustable ?)
Dahua IPC-HFW5421E-Z (for the zoom choke points)
Dahua SD59430U-HN PTZ
iR Illuminator

 

[bp2008]

My opinion is that cameras with sufficiently amazing low light performance are too expensive. You are better off adding lighting, I think.

The turret cam you linked is 3-axis. You can orient it any way you like.

I don't know if that IR illuminator is a good deal. 4.5 watts for over $100 shipped? There has to be better out there. I bet that one you linked is no brighter than one you can get for $10.

Also, just a thought. You could power at least one IR illuminator with each ethernet cable you run to the cameras. One method would be to use an active PoE splitter to convert 48 volts to 12 volts outside at the camera, then split the 12 volts two ways, one to the camera, and the other to an IR illuminator. The other option is to use passive injectors/splitters, which reroute the two unused pairs in a network cable to a DC jack. Standard PoE can share the same wires as the data, so you can actually use a passive splitter to run both active 48 volt poe and passive 12 volt poe down the same network cable. It might heat up the cable more than normal though, having all 8 wires energized.

 

[smoothie]

thanks for the info @bp2008 I was having trouble finding the answer to the 3-axis question.

The main appeal of the IR illuminator I linked was the adjustable nature of its beam. Do you have a IR illuminator you like? it occurs to me that the adjustable beam isn't useful in most of the places I am looking to put IR illuminators. The other aspect of that IR illuminator that appeals to me is that this appears to be one of the few illuminators that isn't over driven on current to boost light output at the expense of LED lifespan. It seems a great many of the cheaper IR illuminators have individual LEDs burn out or drop precipitously in light output in a short time, some in weeks to months and the cause appears to be driving too much current for the spec of the LEDs used to boost output figures artificially.

While I am familiar with PoE I have only used it in corporate settings for Wifi access points and such. I didn't realize it was possible to have the cameras running PoE and still split off a 12v feed for an IR illuminator, thanks very much for that info. I was planning on running extra cables to feed IR illuminators at points where I am sure I am going to need them, but knowing I could add a few more if needs be is very comforting.

While I do live in Los Angeles which can get quite hot in the summer months the cables will be run inside EMT 3/4" for almost every inch of their routes. So the additional heating of the cables were I to need to use extra IR illuminators shouldn't be prohibitive I would think.

 

[bp2008]

In October 2012 I bought several of these http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001P2E4U4
and one of these http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001BC17BW
and they've performed admirably ever since. If any LEDs have burned out, it isn't very many. I guess I got lucky with them. I don't know if the new style illuminators with larger and fewer LEDs are any better or not.

Something else to consider is that the 850nm illuminators are visible with the naked eye, as the LEDs have a dull red glow. If you want to avoid that, you can get 940nm illuminators which are considered invisible, but cameras are also less sensitive to them so they aren't as bright for the same power consumption as an 850nm illuminator. Personally I'm fine with 850.

 

[bp2008]

I didn't realize it was possible to have the cameras running PoE and still split off a 12v feed for an IR illuminator, thanks very much for that info.

More info:

 

[smoothie]

Excellent. Thanks for the links to the illuminators.

Yeah I have wrestled with the 850/940 question a great deal. On the one hand I like the performance of the 850 and the deterrence factor. But on the other hand the covert nature of 940 is also very appealing but the performance is so much worse. This isn't an easy question to answer for me. I think I will end up using the 850 since it is better overall with the exception of the glow.

How pronounced is the glow on the units you linked ?

 

[bp2008]

I'd say the glow with the smaller units is only slightly brighter than a normal bullet camera. The larger unit is more focused like a spotlight, and it glows over a larger area (it is a rectangle several inches wide), which makes it more noticeable if you are right in front of it. It isn't anything likely to draw the attention of a passer-by, particularly not at a distance, but it is noticeable from further away.

 

[smoothie]

I was raised on the T568B wiring diagram unless you need a crossover then one end is T568A.

So if I ran 10/100 mode A I could use the blues and/or browns for the 12v sub. So here is where I reveal my lack of familiarity with PoE, how is 10/100 mode A or B controlled?, is it the PoE switch or injector that controls that? since different wires are energized in mode A vs B I would think the device on the far end would care which mode was used wouldn't it ?

Well it looks like I need to do some reading on PoE since I am clearing lacking in this department, thanks for bringing this to my attention @bp2008

 

[bp2008]

I've never actually tested this myself, and don't know how the PoE negotiation works any better than you do. If you use a passive splitter, then as far as the camera and switch (or injector) are concerned, there are no connections on pins 4,5,7,8, so it will have no choice but to use mode A to power the camera.

 

[smoothie]

Well I have to say you have been a huge help to me on this topic @bp2008, you have given me a base framework with which to start exploring PoE and its various iterations, thank you so much for taking the time to illuminate me (so to speak).

Since the turret camera I am considering is 12V or PoE I could always use the passive splitter to pull the 12V off the wire and then split that into two connections, one for the camera and one for the illuminator. I am glad that I could potentially add a great many illuminators if the situation warrants it.

Once I actually get out of the planning stage and into the implementation stage I will be sure to take many photos to document the process and post it here in the installation pics forum. I am hoping to start putting in the EMT this weekend, if only I could win the lottery so I could spend all my time playing with security cameras instead of having to work for a living.

 

[bp2008]

if only I could win the lottery so I could spend all my time playing

Teehee. I don't buy lottery tickets, which I figure leaves me just a little bit ahead of people who do.

 

[bp2008]

The active splitter I linked way up there takes 48 volts (standard PoE) and converts it to 12 volts, so you can power it straight off a PoE switch without added mess of a 12v power supply and passive injector right there at your switch. It can deliver about 15 watts total (which is all that 802.3af PoE is rated for), which is enough for a camera and at least one small illuminator. That is what I would recommend if you need to add just one low power illuminator next to a camera.

For a 1 amp or larger illuminator, I'd go with the passive injector/splitter and feed 12 volts directly alongside the PoE. I don't know how many amps a network cable can safely take. Probably depends on the quality of the cable.

 

[Kawboy12R]

My 2 cents. A lower end camera with firmware adjustable the way you want it and good lighting is cheaper and almost as good as a higher end Darkfighter-class in poorer lighting. Freezing moving targets at night is what separates the men from the boys as far as cameras go. A cheap cam with poorly adjustable (or poorly set) firmware and good lighting will still leave a blurry mess of a moving person. Same goes for many higher end cameras. Any "good" cams I've had including my Hik 4526 Darkfighter dome and Axis P3364VE Lightfinder domes on default settings are better than lower end cameras on moving targets in lower light but really shine when they're tweaked to up the exposure speed. If a target is moving quickly through the FOV, I'd take a lower end Hik or Dahua over the cheaper Chinese stuff with IMX322 because they can at least be set to 1/60th at night with additional lighting. If you're happy with good ID on just people that stop moving or move slowly and give up on cyclists and cars then the cheap crap works fine. You've just lowered your odds on a good ID frame though. They're still fine for situational awareness and places where the target comes up close and has to stop for some reason (possibly locked door, closed gate, checking a car door), but if the budget is there for better gear then use it. If you're serious about good pics then spend the money. Even people stopped and fidgeting can make a clear face shot tricky.

IMHO, it's not about "expensive cam vs illuminators", it's "importance of getting a great shot vs budget". The right answer, ignoring budget, is DarkFighter-class or better cameras with firmware tweaked for the particular job of the camera by someone who knows what they're doing PLUS illuminators and/or dusk til dawn lights and motion floods.

My Darkfighter will still give blurry shots on cars 70' away on cloudy days when everything is set to auto. That's lousy firmware in my opinion but is a common limitation of Axis, Dahua and the cheapie Chinese cams as well. I have to manually set it to 1/500 for daytime shots but then it'll freeze everything solid from dawn right up 'til near dusk in colour even on the darkest stormiest days. Then it switches to 1/60th at night and still gives good static images and really improves detail on moving targets. Set it properly and it really shines on tricky targets vs the cheaper stuff when it's set and tweaked properly as well. There should be a "sport mode" and "aggressive" equivalent checkboxes in the firmware of every cam to speed up the exposure by a few steps faster than what "auto" usually calculates to make things easier to get unblurry moving targets, which is really what CCTV footage is about. The cops don't really care about how crisp your lawn looks in the footage, just the usually moving perp's face or the car that drove down the street after robbing your neighbour. Unfortunately the static image quality is what most people judge and what sells cameras.

 

[smoothie]

thanks very much for your post @Kawboy12R those are considerations and perspectives that hadn't even occurred to me. Well it seems I am going to need to do a great deal of reading, and eventually experimentation, regarding "knowing what I am doing" when it comes to the camera settings in the firmware. As it stands currently I have never used a camera where adjusting such settings is even an option.

 

[Kawboy12R]

Just don't fall into the trap of adjusting your settings so that the static image looks better. That usually makes what you want to capture even worse.