Need Your Help - Thanks!

DaveFL

DaveFL

Young grasshopper
Oct 30, 2015
55
0
Hello,

I am looking to install an Outdoor Camera system for my home. This would be a 8 Camera system for a home roughly 3000 sq. ft. My budget per camera would about $400. I would like a camera that has amazing crisp quality with the ability to zoom in to a license tag or face if needed. Example of need: my mailbox is 150 ft. away from the house, I would like to get some quality coverage on it. The sides of my house and lot are pretty long stretches, about 150-200 ft. as well. I know night quality will not get even close to that, but I would like to see Day use be able to handle that. Please help me by telling me your recommended technology (IP, HDSDI, CVI, TVI, AHD) and a specific camera. Thank you in advance, your time is really appreciated.

So far, at the top of my list is:

1. HikVision 4MP WDR Vari-Focal Bullet IP Security Camera 2.8-12mm (Model: 2CD2642FWD-I)
2. HikVision 7716NI-SP/16 16 Channel POE Plug N Play Hi Def NVR Recorder

Thanks!

David
 
For license plate images, you're going to have to dedicate a camera for that service. Otherwise you'll have to sit there and manual control the camera whenever a vehicle comes into that area. The 4mp cameras do not have as good a night vision as 1 mp or 2mp cams. They require more white light or external ir, so be prepared for that extra cost.
 
Hey Blake, thanks for the reply! I saw this video on youtube of this cam at night



I do have LED landscape lighting at night, so the house does have some night time lighting. The same person that posted that night video posted a day video for it, here:



It looks pretty good to me. Do you have any cameras that you can recommend for me to compare? Thanks again!
 
The 4mp is better than the 3mp, but not as good as the 2mp. That youtube video has lots of additional light and the driveway is a light color that reflects IR, unlike dark driveways and grass that absorb it.
 
Hi Fenderman, thanks for the reply. Would there be a big drop in daytime quality going from the 4mp to the 2mp?
 
fenderman said:
The 4mp is better than the 3mp, but not as good as the 2mp. That youtube video has lots of additional light and the driveway is a light color that reflects IR, unlike dark driveways and grass that absorb it.
Click to expand...
Thats exactly what I was gonna say. From that video we can tell there us a huge amount of white light in that image.
 
Daytime image is normally okay and you wouldn't tell. It's nightime where camera images suffer. I've install about 5 cam systems now, and for the residential work I've done the best compromise between day and night has been 2MP cams.
 
DaveFL said:
Hi Fenderman, thanks for the reply. Would there be a big drop in daytime quality going from the 4mp to the 2mp?
Click to expand...
Not too much...there is a difference but its not linear so 4mp is not anywhere near double as clear as 2mp...
You will not be able to capture any detail at 150 feet day or night with either of those cameras...you will need a zoom lens or a ptz camera...
 
For license plate recognition, you need a long lense so that you can pre zoom the camera view when setting up the cam. This distance depends on where the cam will be mounting. If you need varifocal lense then yes. If not I would select fixed focal lense on their new EXIR bullet cams. Much better ir than the old style.
 
DaveFL said:
Is this the 2mp that you are referring to?

http://overseas.hikvision.com/us/Products_accessries_10534_i7721.html#prettyPhoto

Also, when you say i would need a zoom lens, is that something i can add to this camera? Thanks for the help guys.
Click to expand...
These are great
http://overseas.hikvision.com/us/Products_accessries_10508_i7592.html
Problem is that the hikvision fixed cams can generally only be ordered with 12mm lens max, some 16mm..however you can fit a 25mm lens on some models...its a hassle though..
If you want a great low light camera you might consider this for 600
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...darkfighter_series_ds_2cd4526fwd_izh_2mp.html
Though it maxes at 12mm.
When you use narrow lenses or zoom, your field of view will be very narrow...so you may need a combination of cameras to cover the area...
 
fenderman said:
These are great
http://overseas.hikvision.com/us/Products_accessries_10508_i7592.html
Problem is that the hikvision fixed cams can generally only be ordered with 12mm lens max, some 16mm..however you can fit a 25mm lens on some models...its a hassle though..
If you want a great low light camera you might consider this for 600
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...darkfighter_series_ds_2cd4526fwd_izh_2mp.html
Though it maxes at 12mm.
When you use narrow lenses or zoom, your field of view will be very narrow...so you may need a combination of cameras to cover the area...
Click to expand...


I was going with Bullet Cameras because my soft fit overhang needs about 3.5 inches for clearance. The first camera, says its 6 inches tall, so I'm not sure if it will work, it might. The second camera is just way too expensive. I don't mind spending a max of $400 per camera and those are $600. Is there really any good solution bullet camera wise for my needs? I really want amazing daytime and nighttime quality but my needs in terms of distance 100-150ft coverage makes it hard.
 
Your average bullet cam will only go up to about 12mm. If you need more than that you either have take a cam and modify the lense yourself, chose a box camera and purchase separate lense or go the ptz route.
 
DaveFL said:
I was going with Bullet Cameras because my soft fit overhang needs about 3.5 inches for clearance. The first camera, says its 6 inches tall, so I'm not sure if it will work, it might. The second camera is just way too expensive. I don't mind spending a max of $400 per camera and those are $600. Is there really any good solution bullet camera wise for my needs? I really want amazing daytime and nighttime quality but my needs in terms of distance 100-150ft coverage makes it hard.
Click to expand...
why dont you mount the camera closer to the target?
You might also want to try this camera https://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthrea...s!-2015-PTZ-camera-of-the-year?highlight=year
Reliability is known, has not usable warranty, but its cheap...and has 10x zoom...its basically disposable...
otherwise if you are looking at true zoom cameras you will need to increase your budget...http://www.nellyssecurity.com/camer...-20x-network-ir-ptz-dome-security-camera.html
 
DaveFL said:
Hello,

I am looking to install an Outdoor Camera system for my home. This would be a 8 Camera system for a home roughly 3000 sq. ft.
Click to expand...


There is your first mistake there. Don't take personally everyone does it. Saying it's going to be an 8 Camera system that will do (insert requirements here) will almost universally end in disappointment
.
My budget per camera would about $400.
Click to expand...

Which is not a bad budget but does that factor in an NVR or PC based NVR? Cables?

I would like a camera that has amazing crisp quality with the ability to zoom in to a license tag or face if needed.
Click to expand...

Forget "if needed". A camera either has the pixel density when it records the image to make an ID shot, or it doesn't.
Example of need: my mailbox is 150 ft. away from the house, I would like to get some quality coverage on it.
Click to expand...

That is the land of box cameras with long lenses. Depending on sensor characteristics you will need a lens that is 40 - 60mm to get ID quality shots at that range.

The sides of my house and lot are pretty long stretches, about 150-200 ft
Click to expand...


Have you actually measured these distances or are you just guessing? If your house is 3000 sq ft with sides 150ft long it is 20 ft wide. Unless you live in Papua New Guinea I think your measurements are out.

Start by measuring your house and property. Get exact distances as to where everything is.


Please help me by telling me your recommended technology (IP, HDSDI, CVI, TVI, AHD) and a specific camera. Thank you in advance, your time is really appreciated.
Click to expand...

Ignore anything but IP for a new install
So far, at the top of my list is:

1. HikVision 4MP WDR Vari-Focal Bullet IP Security Camera 2.8-12mm (Model: 2CD2642FWD-I)
2. HikVision 7716NI-SP/16 16 Channel POE Plug N Play Hi Def NVR Recorder
Click to expand...

That isn't a bad camera but I think you are picking your camera based on the budget you have nominated, rather than with any real reference to what you want it to do. You are spoilt for choice with cameras, and each camera has its pros and cons. Spending $300 on a 4mp varifocal is silly when a $100 3mp fixed would more than do the job.

These are my recommendations.

Cover all your doors with ID quality pixel density (352 Pixel per Metre or more)

Look at the layout of your house and decide where people will enter your property, or where they must pass through whilst on it. For example you might have a front fence with an open gate that visitors pass through, a decorative hedge with a gap in it, or a side gate. Aim to set up ID zones on these areas. Make sure the cameras face in the most likely direction of approach. No point having a high quality shot of their back.

Don't waste your coverage. If you have a narrow area, get a longer lens with a narrower field of view.

Above all plan and calculate. Measure your property, work out what camera and lens combinations you need, work out the most economical placement of cameras and then go shopping. Avoid the mistake that too many people make when they buy an 8 camera system with 4mm lenses and only discover when the actually need it that their footage is useless because their cameras are badly placed or just don't have the pixel density to make an ID.

DaveFL said:
The second camera is just way too expensive. I don't mind spending a max of $400 per camera and those are $600.
Click to expand...

Try thinking of your camera budget as $3200 as opposed to $400 per camera. As I said earlier you may not need a $400 camera in each position. That can give you a $1000 camera with 11 $200 cameras. Having 7 cameras that are overkill, and an 8th that doesn't do the job you want it to is a waste of time and money.
 
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SyconsciousAu said:


There is your first mistake there. Don't take personally everyone does it. Saying it's going to be an 8 Camera system that will do (insert requirements here) will almost universally end in disappointment
.


Which is not a bad budget but does that factor in an NVR or PC based NVR? Cables?



Forget "if needed". A camera either has the pixel density when it records the image to make an ID shot, or it doesn't.


That is the land of box cameras with long lenses. Depending on sensor characteristics you will need a lens that is 40 - 60mm to get ID quality shots at that range.



Have you actually measured these distances or are you just guessing? If your house is 3000 sq ft with sides 150ft long it is 20 ft wide. Unless you live in Papua New Guinea I think your measurements are out.

Start by measuring your house and property. Get exact distances as to where everything is.




Ignore anything but IP for a new install



That isn't a bad camera but I think you are picking your camera based on the budget you have nominated, rather than with any real reference to what you want it to do. You are spoilt for choice with cameras, and each camera has its pros and cons. Spending $300 on a 4mp varifocal is silly when a $100 3mp fixed would more than do the job.

These are my recommendations.

Cover all your doors with ID quality pixel density (352 Pixel per Metre or more)

Look at the layout of your house and decide where people will enter your property, or where they must pass through whilst on it. For example you might have a front fence with an open gate that visitors pass through, a decorative hedge with a gap in it, or a side gate. Aim to set up ID zones on these areas. Make sure the cameras face in the most likely direction of approach. No point having a high quality shot of their back.

Don't waste your coverage. If you have a narrow area, get a longer lens with a narrower field of view.

Above all plan and calculate. Measure your property, work out what camera and lens combinations you need, work out the most economical placement of cameras and then go shopping. Avoid the mistake that too many people make when they buy an 8 camera system with 4mm lenses and only discover when the actually need it that their footage is useless because their cameras are badly placed or just don't have the pixel density to make an ID.



Try thinking of your camera budget as $3200 as opposed to $400 per camera. As I said earlier you may not need a $400 camera in each position. That can give you a $1000 camera with 11 $200 cameras. Having 7 cameras that are overkill, and an 8th that doesn't do the job you want it to is a waste of time and money.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the detailed response! I think it might be better to allocate a total budget rather than a per camera budget, because based on what you guys are saying buying 8 of the same camera for different needs makes no sense.

My total budget will be $3500 for 10 Cameras and 1 NVR. Here is a little more detail on the locations of the 10 Cameras and the distances they need to cover:

1. Patio Camera - 60-65 ft. (No light at night)
2. Front Door - 20 ft. (Led Lighting in area)
3. Front Yard - 140 ft. (Led Lighting in area)
4. Gate - 400 ft. (Street Lighting)
5. Garage East Side - 100 ft. (2 Lantern like Wall Lights very close to the camera)
6. Driveway - 150 ft. (2 Lantern like Wall Lights very close to the camera)
7. East Side - 150ft (2 Lantern like Wall Lights at max distance & Motion Sensor Flood Light about 25 feet away)
8. Back Door - 35 ft. (1 Wall Light)
9. Pet Pin - 150 ft.(No Light at Night)
10. West Side - 100 ft. (No light at Night only Motion Sensor Flood Light)

The goal would be to cover the distances of these areas listed with the ability to clearly see someones face within that range if I need it on replay . The "Gate" location is a Car/Tag camera specifically for catching all vehicles going in and out of my community.
 
DaveFL said:
My total budget will be $3500 for 10 Cameras and 1 NVR. Here is a little more detail on the locations of the 10 Cameras and the distances they need to cover:

1. Patio Camera - 60-65 ft. (No light at night)
2. Front Door - 20 ft. (Led Lighting in area)
3. Front Yard - 140 ft. (Led Lighting in area)
4. Gate - 400 ft. (Street Lighting)
5. Garage East Side - 100 ft. (2 Lantern like Wall Lights very close to the camera)
6. Driveway - 150 ft. (2 Lantern like Wall Lights very close to the camera)
7. East Side - 150ft (2 Lantern like Wall Lights at max distance & Motion Sensor Flood Light about 25 feet away)
8. Back Door - 35 ft. (1 Wall Light)
9. Pet Pin - 150 ft.(No Light at Night)
10. West Side - 100 ft. (No light at Night only Motion Sensor Flood Light)

The goal would be to cover the distances of these areas listed with the ability to clearly see someones face within that range if I need it on replay . The "Gate" location is a Car/Tag camera specifically for catching all vehicles going in and out of my community.
Click to expand...

What you want to achieve is NEVER going to happen on that budget. As I said earlier 150ft is 45m which is box camera and long lens territory for an ID shot. Good glass will often cost more than the camera behind it.

The 400ft shot to the gate as a Number plate capture cam means you are looking at a 170mm lens and an IR illuminator with more power than the sun. Both of those things are expensive. You will also need two cameras because your plate came will see nothing but plates and lights at night. A separate overview cam is needed to establish vehicle type etc.

Long lenses also give you a narrow field of view which means you need to have more cameras to cover a particular area.

There is no need for all cameras in a setup to give you an ID shot across the entire range you want coverage over. In a department store for example they will have ID resolution on the door, and just an overview of the rest of the store. They don't need to be able to identify an offender at all points within the store because they have his/her ID at the door. They just need to be able to observe what he/she is doing and track their movements.

You also don't need ID shots 45 metres (150 ft) away from your house unless of course you have something important out there, and they won't pass through another ID zone to get to it. If you do get out the ditch witch and run some cable out there. Before someone can steal your stuff or damage your property they need to get closer, well inside 30m usually. Instead of trying to monitor your pets from the house, run a cable out there and monitor them at the pen instead. Monitoring something that far from the house to ID quality without any illumination means you need a low light camera at around $400-$500 and up, 50mm of lens at around $250-$350, an illuminator, an enclosure. You are very rapidly approaching $1000 just to watch your pets. That is also all you will watch because your field of view at 50mm is less than 10 degrees. Dig a trench out there and hang a $100 3mp camera off the pen. If the pen already has power you can look at Ethernet over Power solutions.

Same same the driveway. Trench the 45m out there and get close to the action. Cat 6 and twin and earth are cheap. So is a 100 x 100 x 3 mm pole that you can hang everything off. A ditch witch is cheap to hire. Again if you already have power down there an Ethernet over Power solution may be for you.

Establish Identification Zones at doors and choke points and use overview over the rest of the property. There is absolutely no reason to cover large open areas at the sort of pixel density you are talking about.
 
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Im trying to make my needs more realistic based on your Input. I have added cameras to shorten distances needed for each location. Here is the updated Location IDs:

1. Entrance - 100 ft. (This is a walkway, mostly for face shots coming up to the door) - LED Lighting on ground at night
2. Front Door - 20 ft. - LED Lighting on ground at night
3. Master Bath - 30 ft. - LED Lighting on ground at night
4. Street - 100 ft. (This will be an attempt to get tags on cars) - Street Lights
5. Driveway - 100 ft. - 2 Wall Lights under Camera location and then Street Light at end of Driveway
6. East Side South - 50 ft. - Motion Sensor Flood Light
7. East Side North - 50 ft. - Motion Sensor Flood Light
8. Pet Pin - 150 ft. (Pin sits about 140 ft. from camera) - No light at night
9. Back Door - 35 ft. - 1 Wall Light at Max distance
10. Patio North - 55 ft. - No light at night
11. Patio South - 50 ft. - No light at night
12. West Side - 50 ft. - Motion Sensor Flood Light

These locations may have multiple targets within the range listed, but the number you see is the max distance and there is a target at that location. I would like to be able to make out a face at the max distance. I don't need to see pimples on their face, but I would like a nice clear shot of the face. I am open to bullets and/or domes, but I have to take into consideration the 3.5 inch lip of wood I have on the roof overhang. The 2 Patio Cameras will have no light at night in that area. All the other locations have some lighting at night. I will up my budget to $4,000 for 12 Cameras and one NVR. Please tell me what cameras you think will work for what location, based on lighting needs and distances.

Thanks again!
 
DaveFL said:
Im trying to make my needs more realistic based on your Input. I have added cameras to shorten distances needed for each location. Here is the updated Location IDs:
Click to expand...

These locations may have multiple targets within the range listed, but the number you see is the max distance and there is a target at that location. I would like to be able to make out a face at the max distance. I don't need to see pimples on their face, but I would like a nice clear shot of the face.
Click to expand...

Pixels per metre standards.png

This is a quick primer in the Australian Standards for pixel density.

You can have pixel density or field of view. You cant have both. It just isn't possible to have sufficient pixel density, and sufficient field of view, to get ID shots from the camera to 30m (100ft), unless you are dropping serious money on the cameras that are north of 10 megapixels.

It sounds like you have a front fence. Put a camera zoomed in to Identification resolution on the gate and the driveway. You will need box cameras if you want to do that at 30m (100 ft). A decent camera and lens combination will set you back $600 - $1000 per camera to achieve that from 30m (100ft) I would be trying to install cameras closer to the action. If you can install something like the 2CD2T42WD-I8 with a 16mm lens half way to the gate you can achieve those pixel densities for about $170 per camera.

If you want to capture number plates you are going to need to site your camera at the front fence anyway. The camera needs to be at less than 45 degrees from perpendicular to the plate or you just wont capture anything. You will also need two cameras at this position. It is possible to do numberplate capture with something like the the 2CD2T42WD-I8 with a 16mm lens. You are going to have to get trenching, or you can tap the existing power to the gate and use wireless, or Ethernet over Power, to get your signal back to the house.

Don't even bother trying to be able to get an ID or even a recognition shot at every point from your front fence to your house. It just isn't in your budget. Something like a 2CD2142FWD-IS with a 6mm lens on each corner of your house will let you see what is going on in your front yard for about $140 per camera. If you prefer a bullet with really good IR the 2CD2T42W-I5 and I8 both have a 6mm lens option, the I5 coming in at $160 per camera.

As long as you have a shot of an intruder that is good enough for ID at some point on your property you can use wider angle lenses to track them as they move around and monitor what they are doing.
 
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