Camera placement on new house

[PatriotUSA]

Hey all,

I'm new to the forum and want to thank everyone for their time and help.. I just purchased an Amcrest 32 channel NVR with 16 POE ports, 10 amcrest turret cameras and two PTZ cameras (one amcrest, one Jennov. I plan to place 2 of the turret cameras inside the garage, the other 8 and the 2 PTZ are to be mounted outside. I plan to keep the DVR in my basement which makes running 12 wires a little difficult. Please give me your input on where to mount the aforementioned cameras and which direction to face them. Also plkeas eindicate best locations fo rthe PTZ cameras. I plan to possibly use conduit to run wires from my basement to the soffit then snake the wirest through the soffit. For the cameras mounted higher I can run wires in the attic to the upper soffit as well. See the attached photos of my house and let me know what you think. Thank you!

 

[samplenhold]

Without knowing what you actually want to achieve and what cams you have, it is not possible to answer your questions. More info is needed.

For the cams, what is the FOV and sensor information?

What are you attempting to see at what positions?

 

[PatriotUSA]

Without knowing what you actually want to achieve and what cams you have, it is not possible to answer your questions. More info is needed.

For the cams, what is the FOV and sensor information?

What are you attempting to see at what positions?

The specs of the turret cameras and the PTZ camera are attached. My goal is to have my property completely covered as well as the surrounding properties. My house has two overhangs with soffit at 10 and 20 feet. I planned to position the NVR in the basement & run conduit through the block foundation and up the exterior wall into the 10 ft soffit. Eithernet wires from the NVR will run through the conduit into the soffit. The wires will be snaked inside the soffit to the camera mounting positions. I planned to mount the PTZ on the 20 ft soffit in the very center of the house.This PTZ camera will be utlized manually and with auto tracking. I have access the run the wire for this and any camera at this height through the attic into the soffit. I want to position the cameras in a manner that efficently captures all angles of the house including entryways, windows and parking areas.

 

[Ri22o]

I don't think you will be happy with those cameras at night unless you have A LOT of light. They are an 8MP camera with a sensor (1/2.8) that is best suited for a 2MP camera. You also have all 2.8mm focal lengths. Are you just wanting to see what happens around your property or are you wanting to see who did it? I do not see any DORI specs listed in the Amazon listing, but typically 2.8mm focal lengths are towards the Detect and Observe end of the spectrum unless deployed in certain use cases. You also need to understand that cameras are deployed with purpose and one job; one camera can not see and do it all.

See my threads below for more information on how 2.8mm cameras have their place and the differences between mounting heights, locations, and focal lengths.

What I have learned.

"I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything..." - This is why you need specific FOVs with purposeful focal lengths.

I have gained a lot of knowledge since I signed up and wanted to share my experience and examples of improvements and changes for others who are coming from a "I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything" system mentality. My ongoing "build/looking for advice" thread can be found here...

ipcamtalk.com

The importance of having the right focal length and specific purpose for a camera.

Stranger Danger: Side-by-side captures of Ring/Arlo/Nest vs Better Cameras

This post is a combination of the Typical Ring/Arlo/Nest Captures thread and the Captures from Better Cameras thread. It's not too often we have side-by-side images of the crappy, consumer grade cameras with the same subject as better cameras that have been installed with a purpose. It...

ipcamtalk.com

My on-going "build" thread.

Looking for advice on my install locations.

After posting my thread on where/whether to install the 4K-X I realized I may need to adjust the locations of some of my cameras and with Andy's sale coming up I wanted to get some opinions so I can buy any new hardware I may need. A little about where I live: My street is lit primarily by...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

+1 above. 2.8mm is good for IDENTIFY within 10-15 feet of the camera. At 20 feet high you lose that entire IDENTIFY distance in the VERTICAL and get lots of great shots of hoodies and top of head.

You need cameras on the ideal MP/sensor ratio, which would be anything in green.

See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

 

[samplenhold]

There are hundreds of threads here just like yours. Where someone comes here and posts house pics or plot layouts asking for where to put the cams that they already bought without knowing much about IP cams. It would be good to check out some of those posts.

The standard response is NOT to run cabling until you test out each mounting position. Every cam has a job to do and you need to define that job. Just saying " I want to position the cameras in a manner that efficiently captures all angles of the house including entryways, windows and parking areas. " does not really define the job for each cam. I have cams that provide an overview of the area near my house, some that focus in on specific spots that will give the best face shot to ID a perp. My front door has several cams at different positions and FOV to get the best possible ID at that door. I have ten different models of cams to accomplish this.

It is recommended to get one good varifocal cam first. Then mount it on a test rig and try out different positions, walking it day and night, to see if you get a FOV that will satisfy the defined job. Check out the Cliff Notes and the WIKI for info on test rigs.

This is a very good varifocal for that test rig:
Amazon.com : EmpireTech 4MP 1/1.8" CMOS Ultra Low Light IP Camera,Starlight IR Motorized 2.7mm-12mm Lens,IP67,Built-in Mic,POE and ePOE,Vehicle and Human Detection,AcuPic,SMD 3.0,S3 Version IPC-T54IR-ZE White : Electronics

This is my test rig:

 

[The Automation Guy]

Welcome to the forum! I think you will find that we are a friendly group that is very willing to help people through their CCTV choices. Keep in mind that most people don't have any idea how to create an "effective" CCTV system and the systems being sold to the general public are far from "effective." Therefore you may be shocked and dismayed at some of the advice you are going to receive. People have to "unlearn" everything they think they know about CCTV systems depending on what they actually want to accomplish with their system.

For example, when you say you want to have a camera system to have "my property completely covered as well as the surrounding properties", in reality this means that you will be able to "observe" individuals around your property. The footage from the cameras you looked at (and any "prebuilt" CCTV system available currently) will not have enough detail to be able to "identify" anyone in that footage. Depending on your ultimate goals (do you need footage with enough detail for the police to identify someone or not) this may be all you are looking for, or it may be woefully inadequate.

While everyone's ultimate goals are different, most of us want "identifiable footage" for certain areas of our property - driveways, entrance doors, and any other "points of interest". If someone tries to break into a car in the driveway, we want footage that is actually going to be useful to the police (your current camera selection combined with the obvious mounting locations is not going to provide that). That being said, we generally don't need "identifiable" footage covering every square inch of our property however. So most of us end up with a mix of "overview" cameras which don't provide identifiable footage, and cameras/mounting locations that are chosen to provide identifiable footage in these hotspots.

Most of us also find that placing cameras 20' up will not provide good coverage at all. Even if the camera has enough "zoom" to provide identifiable footage, the angle looking down ends up capturing the tops of people's heads instead of their faces. This makes real identification nearly impossible. Therefore you should plan on mounting your camera's no higher than the first soffit, but ideally even lower than that (5-6' high).

The other thing that is hard for people to understand is the fact that you need a system that is going to provide the desired level of footage during the worst/harshest periods, not just the best periods. What I mean by that is almost any camera can provide "decent looking" footage on a bright sunny day. The real test of a system comes at 3am when there is no ambient light. Even more importantly, at 3am with no ambient light, will the camera capture movement with sharp images or will the movement be blurry? Almost ANY cameras can have their gain and shutter speed settings set to where they make the night look as bright as day (and they do for their marketing material). However as soon as there is a moving subject, the footage become useless because the moving subject is completely blurry/ghosting because of the exposure settings. We want a system that can capture sharp, identifiable footage with zero ambient light even with moving subjects. This is much harder to do than you think and why it really takes a person willing to "unlearn" everything they think they know about CCTV systems before they can achieve a system that works this well.

 

[wittaj]

Welcome to the forum! I think you will find that we are a friendly group that is very willing to help people through their CCTV choices. Keep in mind that most people don't have any idea how to create an "effective" CCTV system and the systems being sold to the general public are far from "effective." Therefore you may be shocked and dismayed at some of the advice you are going to receive. People have to "unlearn" everything they think they know about CCTV systems depending on what they actually want to accomplish with their system.

For example, when you say you want to have a camera system to have "my property completely covered as well as the surrounding properties", in reality this means that you will be able to "observe" individuals around your property. The footage from the cameras you looked at (and any "prebuilt" CCTV system available currently) will not have enough detail to be able to "identify" anyone in that footage. Depending on your ultimate goals (do you need footage with enough detail for the police to identify someone or not) this may be all you are looking for, or it may be woefully inadequate.

While everyone's ultimate goals are different, most of us want "identifiable footage" for certain areas of our property - driveways, entrance doors, and any other "points of interest". If someone tries to break into a car in the driveway, we want footage that is actually going to be useful to the police (your current camera selection combined with the obvious mounting locations is not going to provide that). That being said, we generally don't need "identifiable" footage covering every square inch of our property however. So most of us end up with a mix of "overview" cameras which don't provide identifiable footage, and cameras/mounting locations that are chosen to provide identifiable footage in these hotspots.

Most of us also find that placing cameras 20' up will not provide good coverage at all. Even if the camera has enough "zoom" to provide identifiable footage, the angle looking down ends up capturing the tops of people's heads instead of their faces. This makes real identification nearly impossible. Therefore you should plan on mounting your camera's no higher than the first soffit, but ideally even lower than that (5-6' high).

The other thing that is hard for people to understand is the fact that you need a system that is going to provide the desired level of footage during the worst/harshest periods, not just the best periods. What I mean by that is almost any camera can provide "decent looking" footage on a bright sunny day. The real test of a system comes at 3am when there is no ambient light. Even more importantly, at 3am with no ambient light, will the camera capture movement with sharp images or will the movement be blurry? Almost ANY cameras can have their gain and shutter speed settings set to where they make the night look as bright as day (and they do for their marketing material). However as soon as there is a moving subject, the footage become useless because the moving subject is completely blurry/ghosting because of the exposure settings. We want a system that can capture sharp, identifiable footage with zero ambient light even with moving subjects. This is much harder to do than you think and why it really takes a person willing to "unlearn" everything they think they know about CCTV systems before they can achieve a system that works this well.

Along with this, here is an example we have seen where even though the property owner had video and it was during a bright sunny day, the law determined the resolution wasn't sufficient enough to IDENTIFY one of the perps.

This camera was probably the typical 2.8mm variety camera installed too high. As you can see even under ideal light conditions and probably no more than 10 feet horizontally away from the camera, it wasn't good enough to IDENTIFY.

3 suspects follow North Texas man home from bank, try to break into car

VIDEO: 3 suspects follow North Texas man home from bank, try to break into car

ipcamtalk.com

 

[PatriotUSA]

Thank you for all of your input, looks like i have some returning to do! I do plan to mount most of my cameras on the first soffit, unfortunately the garage side of the house only has a soffit at 20 feet which would mean to mount the cameras lower i would need to run the wires in conduit. I read through the threads that you posted, are you aloud to recommend specific cameras that would be more suitable for my situation? Yes I my goal is to be able to identify people on my property in the appropriate areas and also have some overview of the property as well with cameras that have a wider field of view.

 

[mat200]

Thank you for all of your input, looks like i have some returning to do! I do plan to mount most of my cameras on the first soffit, unfortunately the garage side of the house only has a soffit at 20 feet which would mean to mount the cameras lower i would need to run the wires in conduit. I read through the threads that you posted, are you aloud to recommend specific cameras that would be more suitable for my situation? Yes I my goal is to be able to identify people on my property in the appropriate areas and also have some overview of the property as well with cameras that have a wider field of view.

Welcome @PatriotUSA

Our friends have given you some great advice ..

Do checkout the DORI section of the cliff notes .. as @wittaj noted, you want to get enough pixels on a good ID image to make it useful.

Also you want to get ID info at the entrance of the driveway from the street.

10 foot high soffits placement of cameras typically results will be poor unless you are not wanting to ID someone close to the house, and are using stronger lenses and tighter FOV to get images of people further away ..
( I think @wittaj or one of the other top members posted a good "angle to face image" in another thread )

I would recommend reviewing again the setup @samplenhold posted .. and then

My recommendation :
1) Get one good 4MP 1/1.8" varifocal IP PoE cameras ( many members go with Dahua OEM here .. either Dahua OEM or Hikvision OEM - note, Amcrest sells Dahua OEM cameras, but often does not have the larger sensor models in stock .. )

2) Get a small PoE switch

3) Get a good length of cat6 23 or 24 awg copper wired cable ..

4) setup a rig like @samplenhold shared .. and start testing and playing around with them.

 

[mat200]

The specs of the turret cameras and the PTZ camera are attached. My goal is to have my property completely covered as well as the surrounding properties. My house has two overhangs with soffit at 10 and 20 feet. I planned to position the NVR in the basement & run conduit through the block foundation and up the exterior wall into the 10 ft soffit. Eithernet wires from the NVR will run through the conduit into the soffit. The wires will be snaked inside the soffit to the camera mounting positions. I planned to mount the PTZ on the 20 ft soffit in the very center of the house.This PTZ camera will be utlized manually and with auto tracking. I have access the run the wire for this and any camera at this height through the attic into the soffit. I want to position the cameras in a manner that efficently captures all angles of the house including entryways, windows and parking areas.

Looks like this is the model we are referencing ..

The sensor is rather small compared to what we prefer .. ( 1/2.8" for a 8MP .. we would prefer a 1/1.2" for 8MP )


Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) IP PoE AI Camera, 49ft Nightcolor, Security Outdoor Turret Camera, Built-in Microphone, Human Detection, Active Deterrent, 129° FOV, 4K@15fps IP8M-2779EW-AI (White)

Offers 4K @15fps video with a super-wide 129° viewing angle, F1.4 aperture, and 1/2.8" image sensor.

 

[wittaj]

It is hard to not want to chase MP, but MP isn't the answer. Focal Length and ideal MP/sensor ratios are.

Here is a recent example someone posted with an 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor (similar to the camera MP/sensor ratio you have) versus 8MP on the proper sized sensor (1/1.2" sensor) - which image looks better to you?

Of more importance is that the top picture is default settings, so a horribly slow shutter of maybe 1/12 so any motion would be a blur. The 2nd picture is a 1/100 shutter and will get a clean capture. The faster the shutter speed, the more light that is needed. That bottom picture at 1/100 shutter is impressive. If the top camera was set to a 1/100 shutter it would be a very dark image.


Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera. The camera you have is designed for 2MP, so when they pop an 8MP lens on it, the processor is still the same and has to work harder. In some situations that is problematic.

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor (this is just the regular 5442 camera that I forced into color instead of using infrared):

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

 

[mat200]

Hey all,

I'm new to the forum and want to thank everyone for their time and help.. I just purchased an Amcrest 32 channel NVR with 16 POE ports, 10 amcrest turret cameras and two PTZ cameras (one amcrest, one Jennov. I plan to place 2 of the turret cameras inside the garage, the other 8 and the 2 PTZ are to be mounted outside. I plan to keep the DVR in my basement which makes running 12 wires a little difficult. Please give me your input on where to mount the aforementioned cameras and which direction to face them. Also plkeas eindicate best locations fo rthe PTZ cameras. I plan to possibly use conduit to run wires from my basement to the soffit then snake the wirest through the soffit. For the cameras mounted higher I can run wires in the attic to the upper soffit as well. See the attached photos of my house and let me know what you think. Thank you!

These are the locations I would start testing with as positions to place the cameras .. if the siding is vinyl you can run the cables under the siding without too many issues iirc ..

the cameras by the door I would place at face level looking straight at people who would walk up to the door .. I like the mini-dome wedge style for these cameras

 

[samplenhold]

 

[johnfitz]

if the siding is vinyl

siding looks good... I got a spot in NJ with those not so good tiles