Camera placement and recommendations

[dummptyhummpty]

Hopefully this is the right forum for this. A family member asked for some help choosing and installing cameras at their house after two incidents regarding someone going into the garage and backyard from the alley. I tried my best to create a diagram of the property and place cameras where I thought they'd be best, but definitely need some guidance. The alley (and most of the property) is pretty dark at night (especially by the rear gate) so I want to take that into consideration. I don't think there would be opposition to adding a motion sensing light by the rear gate, but would have to be mindful of the neighbor's garage which is there (not pictured). I'm trying to avoid posting pictures of the property, but could possibly post some if really needed.

• What's best to do by the house's side door? The space is pretty narrow so I don't think a camera above the door would capture much. Would it be best to have two cameras pointing each direction?
• Is there any reason not to go with Amcrest over Dahua? I've had good luck with both at my house.
• They'd like to avoid a monthly fee/cloud storage so I'm leaning towards a dedicated NVR (vs Unifi Protect or Synology).
• The house and garage are 60 feet apart and there's trees between them which would prevent a camera on the rear of the house from getting much of the yard or garage. I'm planning to use some Unifi APs to link the two buildings together, but could run a cable over head (power and phone are) or in the ground if needed.
• The house is 85 feet from the street so I don't expect to be able to get much of people on the sidewalk or cars driving by.
• Any feedback would be super helpful and I'm happy to answer any questions if I've missed something.

Key:

• Red & Yellow Arrows - Proposed camera locations (mounted up towards the eaves or side of the building)
• Green Arrows - Motion activated lights

 

[wittaj]

If you like Amcrest, you will love Dahua as Amcrest is the consumer line for Dahua, except the Amcrest line are usually cheaper parts, lower quality sensors, etc.

You will need to stay away from any camera labeled Full Color as all cameras need light and the full color cameras cannot see infrared, so you can't add it later.

Plan on more cameras than you think. If you think you need 8, get a 16 channel NVR.

85 feet is certainly doable for a camera if you get the right one.

Too many people chase MP and go with wide angle 2.8 or 3.6mm fixed lens cameras. At night, at best IDENTIFY at 15 feet out regardless of the MP.

You need to get the right camera for the distance you want to IDENTIFY. You have several pinch points that a varifocal will be the better choice.

Take a look at this thread that mentions the most commonly suggested cameras here. These represent the best overall value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[dummptyhummpty]

If you like Amcrest, you will love Dahua as Amcrest is the consumer line for Dahua, except the Amcrest line are usually cheaper parts, lower quality sensors, etc.

You will need to stay away from any camera labeled Full Color as all cameras need light and the full color cameras cannot see infrared, so you can't add it later.

Plan on more cameras than you think. If you think you need 8, get a 16 channel NVR.

85 feet is certainly doable for a camera if you get the right one.

Too many people chase MP and go with wide angle 2.8 or 3.6mm fixed lens cameras. At night, at best IDENTIFY at 15 feet out regardless of the MP.

You need to get the right camera for the distance you want to IDENTIFY. You have several pinch points that a varifocal will be the better choice.

Take a look at this thread that mentions the most commonly suggested cameras here. These represent the best overall value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

Thanks, that was very helpful. I didn't realize the difference between Amcrest and Dahua. That's good to know, because I have a Dahua IPC-HDW5231R-ZE that recently died and I've been looking to replace it.

I'll spend some time looking at the options and report back.

 

[The Automation Guy]

I think your camera positions are good. Just don't mount them too high - they should really be about head height.

Of course the position is only a part of the equation. The camera's field of view is just as important. That being said, other than the "gate" and "front walkway" cameras, I think you pretty much want as wide as possible, so 2.8mm is a good option. The camera in the corner of the garage probably needs a 90 degree field of view which for most cameras is around 3.6mm focal length however. You might even consider some of the new 180 degree full time color Dahua cameras to cover the alleyway (perhaps mounted on the front corner of the alley garage where there is no camera in your image or in the middle of the other garage to cover the driveway with one camera) if you can get enough light back there. If not, then stick with cameras with IR (the full time color cameras don't have any IR capabilities).

For the gate camera, you'll want something with a much tighter field of view. A variable focal length camera can be really helpful here because you can dial in the exact focal length that works in that situation.

For the front camera, you'll have to decide if you are trying to get a wider view that can potentially identify people when they get close to the house, or if you want a more narrow view where you want to be able to identify people farther down the walkway or at the sidewalk. You can't have both normally.

 

[mat200]

Hopefully this is the right forum for this. A family member asked for some help choosing and installing cameras at their house after two incidents regarding someone going into the garage and backyard from the alley. I tried my best to create a diagram of the property and place cameras where I thought they'd be best, but definitely need some guidance. The alley (and most of the property) is pretty dark at night (especially by the rear gate) so I want to take that into consideration. I don't think there would be opposition to adding a motion sensing light by the rear gate, but would have to be mindful of the neighbor's garage which is there (not pictured). I'm trying to avoid posting pictures of the property, but could possibly post some if really needed.

• What's best to do by the house's side door? The space is pretty narrow so I don't think a camera above the door would capture much. Would it be best to have two cameras pointing each direction?
• Is there any reason not to go with Amcrest over Dahua? I've had good luck with both at my house.
• They'd like to avoid a monthly fee/cloud storage so I'm leaning towards a dedicated NVR (vs Unifi Protect or Synology).
• The house and garage are 60 feet apart and there's trees between them which would prevent a camera on the rear of the house from getting much of the yard or garage. I'm planning to use some Unifi APs to link the two buildings together, but could run a cable over head (power and phone are) or in the ground if needed.
• The house is 85 feet from the street so I don't expect to be able to get much of people on the sidewalk or cars driving by.
• Any feedback would be super helpful and I'm happy to answer any questions if I've missed something.

Key:

• Red & Yellow Arrows - Proposed camera locations (mounted up towards the eaves or side of the building)
• Green Arrows - Motion activated lights

View attachment 178837

Hi @dummptyhummpty

looks like a good plan .. time to pick up one 4MP 1/1.8" varifocal camera and a small PoE switch and test the positions ..

In terms of Dahua OEM cameras, you will get a better selection from Andy ( EmpireTecAndy here ) than Amcrest provides .. there are other vendors of Dahua OEM also, still Andy is our primary goto source for reliable sourcing

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

More recently, Andy got his website online. He's also has an amazon storefront

 

[wittaj]

And there are links to Andy's cameras in the thread I linked.

 

[garycrist]

If you can add light, then add some! It is easier to work with some light
rather that a motion sensor light. Narrow or channel the walkway or entry point to get a good face shot.

 

[dummptyhummpty]

Hi @dummptyhummpty

looks like a good plan .. time to pick up one 4MP 1/1.8" varifocal camera and a small PoE switch and test the positions ..

In terms of Dahua OEM cameras, you will get a better selection from Andy ( EmpireTecAndy here ) than Amcrest provides .. there are other vendors of Dahua OEM also, still Andy is our primary goto source for reliable sourcing

After reading through @wittaj's thread, I ended up ordering a T5442T-ZE from Andy's Amazon store. This way I can walk through positions with the family member and show them the options for the back area.

 

[wittaj]

After reading through @wittaj's thread, I ended up ordering a T5442T-ZE from Andy's Amazon store. This way I can walk through positions with the family member and show them the options for the back area.

That is a great decision. That camera is so good and the ability to see what focal length you need will save a lot of buying and then buying to replace because you want more zoom in an area!

 

[dummptyhummpty]

I think your camera positions are good. Just don't mount them too high - they should really be about head height.

Of course the position is only a part of the equation. The camera's field of view is just as important. That being said, other than the "gate" and "front walkway" cameras, I think you pretty much want as wide as possible, so 2.8mm is a good option. The camera in the corner of the garage probably needs a 90 degree field of view which for most cameras is around 3.6mm focal length however. You might even consider some of the new 180 degree full time color Dahua cameras to cover the alleyway (perhaps mounted on the front corner of the alley garage where there is no camera in your image or in the middle of the other garage to cover the driveway with one camera) if you can get enough light back there. If not, then stick with cameras with IR (the full time color cameras don't have any IR capabilities).

For the gate camera, you'll want something with a much tighter field of view. A variable focal length camera can be really helpful here because you can dial in the exact focal length that works in that situation.

For the front camera, you'll have to decide if you are trying to get a wider view that can potentially identify people when they get close to the house, or if you want a more narrow view where you want to be able to identify people farther down the walkway or at the sidewalk. You can't have both normally.

Thank you, this is very helpful. I'll be testing positions with a T5442T-ZE, but need to talk to them about their goals for the front and sides of the house. While there are motion sensing lights in some places, I'm not sure if they want to convert those to always on so I'd be hesitant to go with full color cameras, but I can see.

Where needed, is there any reason to go with a fixed focal length camera vs a verifocal (aside from cost)?

 

[wittaj]

Thank you, this is very helpful. I'll be testing positions with a T5442T-ZE, but need to talk to them about their goals for the front and sides of the house. While there are motion sensing lights in some places, I'm not sure if they want to convert those to always on so I'd be hesitant to go with full color cameras, but I can see.

Where needed, is there any reason to go with a fixed focal length camera vs a verifocal (aside from cost)?

The nice thing about the varifocal is that you can always move it somewhere else if you get a new camera at that location.

But most of us find over time that we end up maxing out the zoom of the varifocal. We start with the wide angle and as stuff happens we realize we need more zoom.

@Ri22o put together a great thread documenting this, and this is pretty normal for most of us.

"I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything..." - This is why you need specific FOVs with purposeful focal lengths.

I have gained a lot of knowledge since I signed up and wanted to share my experience and examples of improvements and changes for others who are coming from a "I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything" system mentality. My ongoing "build/looking for advice" thread can be found here...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[dummptyhummpty]

The nice thing about the varifocal is that you can always move it somewhere else if you get a new camera at that location.

But most of us find over time that we end up maxing out the zoom of the varifocal. We start with the wide angle and as stuff happens we realize we need more zoom.

@Ri22o put together a great thread documenting this, and this is pretty normal for most of us.

"I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything..." - This is why you need specific FOVs with purposeful focal lengths.

I have gained a lot of knowledge since I signed up and wanted to share my experience and examples of improvements and changes for others who are coming from a "I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything" system mentality. My ongoing "build/looking for advice" thread can be found here...

ipcamtalk.com

That's a great thread! I saw it the other day and it was really eye-opening. So if I understand, verifocal is helpful in dialing things in or having adjustment, but if I knew specifically I needed a zoom/FOV, I could go with a fixed?

 

[wittaj]

That's a great thread! I saw it the other day and it was really eye-opening. So if I understand, verifocal is helpful in dialing things in or having adjustment, but if I knew specifically I needed a zoom/FOV, I could go with a fixed?

That is correct.

 

[mat200]

Thank you, this is very helpful. I'll be testing positions with a T5442T-ZE, but need to talk to them about their goals for the front and sides of the house. While there are motion sensing lights in some places, I'm not sure if they want to convert those to always on so I'd be hesitant to go with full color cameras, but I can see.

Where needed, is there any reason to go with a fixed focal length camera vs a verifocal (aside from cost)?

remember to test at different times of day and light conditions .. with still and moving subjects .. ideally you want to replicate the test for what you are expecting to need the cameras for.

Also remember the cameras have tuning parameters .. so you can adjust those once you find a good position to get better image results.

 

[The Automation Guy]

Fix focal length lenses have fewer lens elements and moving parts. This should make the image quality better than a variable focal length lens. Of course this assumes all parts are of equal quality between the two camera models. That may not always be true, so it really comes down to the actual manufacturer and camera models.

 

[garycrist]

Also buy an EXTRA LONG Ethernet cable (for testing) and some Dielectric Grease to protect
those little gold contacts.

 

[dummptyhummpty]

Thanks again for all of the help! We ended up going with three cameras for now due to budget and installed things over the past few weeks. My father-in-law was a pipe fitter and he had a good time helping me run the ethernet cable. Much easier than pipes!




(I'm standing on a ladder, the gate is pretty tall)

 

[The Automation Guy]

Thanks for the update. That's a clean looking installation job.

I'm not sure if you are cropping the back gate image at all, but if not it might be better to turn the camera 90 degrees so the image is vertical vs horizontal. You'll get more usable footage doing this. The camera should have a menu setting to rotate the camera's images 90 degrees as well so that you don't have to turn your head sideways to review the footage!

 

[dummptyhummpty]

Thanks for the update. That's a clean looking installation job.

I'm not sure if you are cropping the back gate image at all, but if not it might be better to turn the camera 90 degrees so the image is vertical vs horizontal. You'll get more usable footage doing this. The camera should have a menu setting to rotate the camera's images 90 degrees as well so that you don't have to turn your head sideways to review the footage!

Oh, I'll have to give that a try next time I'm over there. Thank you!