Thinking of going Dahua now...Help!.. need to pick cameras for the new house but there are so many options.

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
First of all, I would like to thank everyone on here for the immense amount of knowledge you provide, it is amazing!

I work in the tech space and consider myself pretty in the know when it comes to tech but I realized that with IP cameras I basically know nothing and so I hope I can get some help. My parents are about to finish building their new house and I have been and am responsible for all the tech because their previous house was an absolute disaster. Unfortunately, the group we have used to wire the house and do most of the electrical work are good at that but that is about where it ends. I would call them 'hobby' smart, they will suggest what they have previously installed but do not want to be dangerous and try something they haven't installed before. So when I asked them about Security cameras, they suggested some basic 2MP Reolink or Amcrest cameras which I immediately knew were terrible.

So I have taken it upon myself to organize the cameras and have just asked them to run CAT6 to the required locations. Everything is going to be connected up via a Unifi Network and Unifi POE Switches. There is going to be an iPad located on the wall in the kitchen area and one upstairs near the bedrooms, the cameras need to be visible on there on an easy to use interface. These iPads will also be used to control the Sonos, the Nuki Front Door and the Nest Doorbell.

At this stage no cameras have been selected and so I was hoping someone could provide me with some help on what would be a good set of cameras?

The back of the house looks onto a park / billabong, the front of the house onto the street.

All cables go to a Server room underground.

I have attached a floor plan for some guidance with the locations we think we will have marked.

I have had a look at the 5442 - but there are so many versions, I am not sure which one to go for -ZE, AS, T-ZE etc..

I am also located in Australia.

Thank you so much!

Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 16.10.20.png

Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 16.09.37.png

Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 16.09.51.png
 

Attachments

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
:welcome:

Welcome to the enchanted land of video surveillance lunatics, good guys, nut jobs and miscreants (yes, I fit into at least three categories). There are a lot of knowledgeable people on here and knowledge and experience are shared constantly. That's how I got to be a lunatic (already a nut job and miscreant).

Start out by looking in the WiKi in the blue bar at the top of the page. There's a ton of very useful information in there and it needs to be viewed on a computer, not a phone or tablet. The Cliff Notes will be of particular interest although the camera models listed there are a generation old at this point. The best way to determine what kind of camera you need in each location and where each location should really be is to buy one varifocal camera first and set up a test stand for it that can be easily moved around. Test using that, viewing using the web interface of the camera, during the day and at night. Have someone walk around behaving like a miscreant and see if you can identify them. There is also information for choosing hardware and securing the system along with a whole bunch of other good stuff.

From what I see with the renderings, if wiring is already in place you're kind of stuck at the hard place, not between the rock. Cameras, to be effective for identification purposes, need to be within seven feet or so of grade. Higher than that and you get tops of heads or faces that have no detail because they're too far away.

Don't chase megapixels unless you have a really BIG budget. General rule of thumb is that a 4MP camera will easily outperform an 8MP camera when they both have the same sensor size. Reason being that there are twice as many pixels in the 8MP versus the 4MP. This results in only half the available light getting to each pixel in an 8MP that a pixel in the 4MP "sees".

A dedicated PC doesn't need to be either expensive to purchase or to run. A used business class machine can be had from eBay and various other sources. The advances made in Blue Iris make it easily possible to run a fairly large system on relatively inexpensive hardware which also makes power consumption low, as in under 50 watts in many cases. The biggest expenses turn out to be hard drives for storing video and a PoE switch to power the cameras and, of course, the cameras themselves.

The three basic rules of video surveillance cameras-

Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.

Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance. Any camera can be made to "see" color at night if the exposure time is long enough, as in half a second or longer. Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

Read the reviews here, most include both still shots and video.

Lens size, focal length, is another critical factor. Many people like the wide, sweeping, views of a 2.8mm lens but be aware that identification is problematic with a lens that wide. Watch this video to learn how to analyze each location for appropriate lens size and keep in mind that it may take two cameras to provide the coverage you need or desire. Another factor that effects view angles is the sensor size. Typically larger sensors will have a larger field of view in any given lens size.

The 5442 series of cameras by Dahua is the current "king of the hill". They are 4MP and capable of color with some ambient light at night. The 2231 series is a less expensive alternative in 2MP and does not have audio capabilities, no built in microphone, but is easier on the budget. The 3241T-ZAS has similar spcs as the 2231 and has audio. There are also cameras available from the IPCT Store right here on the forum and from Nelly's Security who has a thread in the vendors section. Andy, from EpireTech, is a reputable source for Dahua and some Hikvision cameras. He has a thread here under the Vendor section as ell as stores on Amazon and Aliexpress.

IPCT Thread

Andy's Store

King Security/EmpireTech Store

Email
Andy Wang kingsecurity2014@163.com

5442 Reviews

Review - Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ Turret

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Turret, Full Color, Starlight+)

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Bullet Network Camera

2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

3241T-ZAS Review

Less expensive models -

VPN Information Thread
 
As an Amazon Associate IPCamTalk earns from qualifying purchases.

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,448
Reaction score
47,588
Location
USA
Were the suggestions in your other threads not adequate for your tastes?:p The Dahua's indicated in these threads are still the go to cameras...




 

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
Were the suggestions in your other threads not adequate for your tastes?:p The Dahua's indicated in these threads are still the go to cameras...

- Answered - decided to go with Nest Hello + Nuki Door Entry System

- Still true, still have not come to a conclusion, this was mainly about Hikvision but now I am thinking to go to Dahua

- Sorted - based on information on this forum I have now bought a Dell Optiplex 7040 from eBay and set it up with BlueIris

- Same as above.
So those other posts have been fantastic and have answered most of my questions except the final one on which camera - see the quote for responses.

So this is more about the final details, which cameras because unfortunately, I cannot rely on the building company and I realized how little I know about all this except get a 1/1.8" sensor at probably 2.8mm for max coverage.
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,448
Reaction score
47,588
Location
USA
Here would be my general guidance for what you are trying to accomplish:

  • 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
  • 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
  • 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates.
  • 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location and you will have a solid system.
You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.
 
Last edited:

mat200

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
13,670
Reaction score
22,782
FYI - the Dahua DORI calculations use a less density spec than we typically prefer ( 100 ppf ) so their numbers are longer. ( see the DORI section of the cliff notes )

Thus I would recommend considering their numbers a bit too optimistic. ( slightly .. )

Again, do see the DORI section in the cliff notes.
 

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
Here would be my general guidance for what you are trying to accomplish:

  • 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
  • 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
  • 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates.
  • 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location and you will have a solid system.
You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.
Thank you for your response - what is the difference between:
IPC-HDW5442TM-AS
IPC-HDW5442TM-ASE
IPC-HDW5442T-ZE

Thank you!
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,448
Reaction score
47,588
Location
USA
First one is EOL being replaced with the second one - both are fixed lens, so either an overview camera or to ID someone within 10 feet of the camera.

The ZE is a varifocal (meaning you optically zoom it to the area you are trying to capture) to ID people from 30ish feet away from the camera, but some will stretch it to 50 feet or so - depends on how large you want the face on the screen.
 

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
First one is EOL being replaced with the second one - both are fixed lens, so either an overview camera or to ID someone within 10 feet of the camera.

The ZE is a varifocal (meaning you optically zoom it to the area you are trying to capture) to ID people from 30ish feet away from the camera, but some will stretch it to 50 feet or so - depends on how large you want the face on the screen.
Perfect, thank you so much @wittaj, we are not in a very high crime area so I think I might go with the ZE all around the house (in the images posted above). This way we can set the focal range to what we need - does that sound like an ok plan? It looks like it goes from 2.7mm to 12mm which allows us to get the full range.

  • I noticed that there is another section on the Dahua site that says "Full Color" and that camera is not there, does that mean that it does not do full color at night?
  • Is this one basically the same camera but NO Vari-focal lens plus LED's? It also looks like it has AI? IPC-HDW5442TM-AS-LED
 
Last edited:

concord

Getting comfortable
Joined
Oct 24, 2017
Messages
663
Reaction score
739
In case you haven't read or someone didn't mention, use solid copper wiring (not copper-clad).

 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,448
Reaction score
47,588
Location
USA
Varifocal is indeed the correct plan of attack. After we "wow" with how much we can see with a 2.8mm, we realize how ineffective they are at actually identifying someone unless they are pretty close.

The varifocal is the right choice because you can always adjust it over time as you see if it is missing something, or relocate it to another spot.

Do not buy into the marketing hype of "Full Color" or whatever a different manufacturer calls it. All cameras need light - simply physics.

Unless you have a lot of light, you want to stick with cameras that can go into B/W with infrared if there is not enough light. A full color camera without the ability to see infrared light will be useless without enough light.

I have 33,000 lumen radiating off my house and I have to force the camera in color as it is not enough light for the camera to automatically stay in color at night. The sensors are small in cameras and need a lot of light.

I have enough light at this location that the little LED white light on a "Full Color" camera didn’t make a difference. This is a 4MP camera on the 1/2.8" sensor with an LED white light as part of the camera. So with this 1/120 shutter speed, I wanted to see if the camera could perform with only the white light from the camera and the flood lights turned off. As you can see from this video, it never recognized me at these settings. You would need to run 1/80 shutter with just the white light to be able to start to make a person out, but the image is way too dark. But if I run a slower shutter to make the image brighter, then I get blur.

The average Joe will not spend the time to calibrate and will just leave the settings on auto and love the great still image they get and then just accept a blur/ghost motion at night. When do we need these to perform - at night!

Keep in mind that with the shutter at auto, I can make this video be a nice bright bright image and look like noon at night, but motion was a blur...once you dial the camera in to actually be usable, you see the limitations...

 
Last edited:

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
Thank you for all these responses!

Last few questions:
  • Should we be mixing 4MP and 8MP cameras to get better daytime and better night time vision?
  • Is purchasing from Empirecandy the same and buying from an authorized reseller in Australia? i.e. i noticed Empire candy's cameras do not have Dahuas logo on them, are they the same?
  • Is the Z4E a better camera?
  • I have BlueIris, can I set up the AI on the camera to stop the false triggers or how will I go about this? Do I need to set up that additional software that is in the Youtube everyone has been watching where the guy uses BlueIris.
  • The 5442-Z4E is a Bullet is that right?
Thank you!
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,448
Reaction score
47,588
Location
USA
@EMPIRETECANDY cameras are Dahua OEM cameras. Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua cams. If you get a camera that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo.

And the firmware is actually better because many members here provide feedback to Andy and Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and send back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 is another. Almost every other vendor the 49225 is not autotrack.

Depends on who you buy from in Australia - they may or may not be authorized dealers or may be only selling chinese hacked cameras that cannot be updated - a question you would need to ask them.

As we have said in all the various threads you have created, the current best MP to sensor is the 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor. You can dial a 4MP camera into daylight settings easier than you can dial an 8MP into nighttime settings. Heck, now that I have seen you can get a 2MP PTZ on a 1/1.8" sensor I want that! It would need half the light of a 4MP.

The Z4E is a better camera in the sense that it has a better zoom. But you may have some locations where the min zoom on that camera would be too close. It is a bullet camera.

Yes, get the cameras like the 5442 series that has AI on it and it will pretty much eliminate false triggers. You do not need the additional software YouTubers are talking about if you buy cameras with AI built in, you just tell Blue Iris to pull the motion triggers from the camera.

From my own personal experience - the true test....I have found the AI of the Dahua cameras to work even in a freakin blizzard....imagine how much the CPU would be maxing out sending all the snow pictures for analysis to Deepstack LOL. My non-AI cams in BI were triggering all night. This picture was ran through Deepstack (without the IVS or red lines on it) and it failed to recognize a person in the picture, but the camera AI did. The only triggers my AI cameras have are from human or car triggers and is doing so with a lot less CPU than sending pics to Deepstack. This pic says it all and the video had the red box over it even in complete white out on the screen:


1613268961041.png



Some sellers elsewhere will clearly state you cannot upgrade their cameras, others do not and then you brick it - we get a few posts a week from someone coming here posting they bricked their cameras. You get what you pay for and Andy has been proven to be reputable. At least this vendor below told folks they cannot update, but who remembers that a year later....

1614654592987.png
 
Last edited:

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
Alright, done deal. Thank you @wittaj for putting up with all my questions, and everyone else on here - this forum is truly amazing and I really appreciate it.

I am going to go with 7x 5442T-ZE's, this should cover all areas and allow me to adjust focal lengths as needed. From the Horizontal 114~ degree view it looks like shows a nice large space.
 

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
I'll add another caution for you. Don't be too "in love" with a wide field of view, AKA short focal length. To get an identification the subject will need to be within less than five meters of the camera, assuming it isn't mounted higher than ~2.5 meters. Wide fields of view sure look nice, but are usually pretty useless for actually producing video when identification, positive identification, is needed.
 

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
I'll add another caution for you. Don't be too "in love" with a wide field of view, AKA short focal length. To get an identification the subject will need to be within less than five meters of the camera, assuming it isn't mounted higher than ~2.5 meters. Wide fields of view sure look nice, but are usually pretty useless for actually producing video when identification, positive identification, is needed.
Thank you, yes the cameras are around 2.5m so I think we should be ok.

I was actually just thinking that it might be worth adding an extra one in the right inside corner of the gate house at the front as there is a package drop in the wall there and currently no video coverage because the Nest Hello is just going to be filming once you are in the gate house. There will be a roof over this section.

lp_image.jpeg
 

mat200

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
13,670
Reaction score
22,782
Thank you, yes the cameras are around 2.5m so I think we should be ok.

I was actually just thinking that it might be worth adding an extra one in the right inside corner of the gate house at the front as there is a package drop in the wall there and currently no video coverage because the Nest Hello is just going to be filming once you are in the gate house. There will be a roof over this section.

View attachment 83732
Run 2 cat6 lines to that location, you may want to put in a proper video intercom unit one day..
 

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
Run 2 cat6 lines to that location, you may want to put in a proper video intercom unit one day..
Yep, there is a junction box in the wall with 2x Cat 6, power and a 6 core cable (not sure about the 6 core, the builders ran that) for future proofing.
 

remsta

Young grasshopper
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
63
Reaction score
17
Location
New York
Hi All,

i am about to order the cameras from Andy and am a little confused. Andy mentioned I needed to purchase mounts, however, our installer has said: “In regard to the camera's they do not require any additional mounts, these are mostly used in retrofit installations.We mount the base of the camera directly to the wall or ceiling and the cabling will come in through the base. This looks much better in a new home installation.”

Is this correct? Could someone confirm?
thank you!
 
Top