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Sportbiker

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First, shout out to the Admin for fixing the mixup with my account being marked spam :)

Second, howdy all. I've always been a big fan of forums as the best source of niche information given the careful moderation; FB is a you-know-what. Got here via someone cross-posting on Reddit.

Third, I'm looking to consume all I can about residential cameras and their use in securing my home, mainly on the outside. I'm likely running for school board and some local community members have become violent over the past 5ish years. I'm not going the cloud storage route. My background it IT, security, privacy, have built my own workstations, and run my own Unraid.

Thanks in advance for the great info you've all amassed and shared, I'm sure I'll find it critical to learn quickly.
 

wittaj

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Welcome!

Here are a few guidelines and considerations as you piece something together.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms, so don't be sold on those names.

To identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that most people opt for, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

1604638118196.png




My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. Meanwhile my 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in to the public sidewalk provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back. Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.
  • 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
  • 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
  • 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
  • 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.
You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.

I'd recommend you consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is simply a stripped down computer after all... And this would allow you the flexibility to mix camera brands.

You don't need to buy components and build one, or buy a new computer either.

When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal, and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...

Main keys are you can't locate the camera too high (not on the 2nd story or above 7 feet high unless it is for overview and not Identification purposes) or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who. Also, do not chase marketing phrases like ColorVu and Full Color and the like - all cameras need light - simple physics...

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

You will want to consider getting a camera capable of reading plates.

Regarding a camera for plates (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

1630158008946.png
 

Flintstone61

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Welcome from the Upper Midwest,
You just got a page full of good info above from Wittaj.
After I experienced the limitations of Boxed systems from Costco, or Sam's etc....and I started Googling, I eventually landed here.
That's how my journey began.
I've evolved from the frustration of Nightowl Dvr's (Hikvision OEM), to an Amcrest ( Dahua OEM) DVR/XVR, to Blue Iris on an HP Elitedesk with a 6 core i5-8500 running 15 cameras.
I manage a Condo site with two detached out buildings. I use a mix of Existing analog CCTV cams on a DVR ( 12 cams) and a IP cam setup with Blue Iris and 13 cams with 2 more Cams feeding from a another DVR into Blue Iris from a detached 4 stall garage/ parking area.

And for home, well my friend bought a house in 2019, and she had it in her head that she needed a camera system, because her Nephews, were swinging thier Big dicks around in the locker room about how their Reolink Wifi's were cheap and great and blah blah blah....
She wanted me to install a rudimentary system. I said no Wifi cams, not for the heavy lifting anyway. I saw the degraded iphone web page loading speed deteriorate at the 2 Nephews house running 4 wifi cams.
Knowing Jack about CCTV, I ended up learning by buying inferior stuff, and then showing up here, where they offered me the Red Pill ( make a Blue Iris system a see how far down the Rabbit Hole goes) or the Blue Pill, (Big Box crap, set it and forget it, and limited results)
These guys have got me going in the right direction. Although i may have frustrated a forum member or three on my path to BI-enlightenment :banghead::banghead::banghead:

The Condo board have started to request video more often, and asked me to find out deep mysteries, like who took the fake Palm tree out of the Lobby? How did my clothes in the laundry room, end up on the floor?
Who backed into my car? Did you see the Coyote out back? Who is scrawling neolithic gibberish on the Bulletin Board postings?
Did we get a plate number of the catalytic converter thieves? (yes)
And....the biggest deterrent to misbehaving, is just the Camera's themselves. The behavior modification over time has been interesting to observe. Nobody is lurking around the underground parking stalls anymore, many people are folding thier laundry back at their units, rather than the prying eyes of the laundry cams. And no residents are over night parking in Guest parking spaces. stuff like that.
The first two images below show the improvement over time of my front lot game. Previously, the Site had no outdoor cameras. and frequent rear parking lot visitors rolling Bob Marley's and checking car doors etc....I had a lighting company come out and take the old carriage lamps out out, and put in some " dark sky compliant" LED's. I think you could play a ball game out there at night ( almost).
mar84.jpgIPC HFW5241E-Z12E_Dahua.jpgScreenshot 2021-07-10 004557.pngScreenshot 2021-07-10 004320.pngScreenshot 2021-07-10 004350.png
 
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mat200

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First, shout out to the Admin for fixing the mixup with my account being marked spam :)

Second, howdy all. I've always been a big fan of forums as the best source of niche information given the careful moderation; FB is a you-know-what. Got here via someone cross-posting on Reddit.

Third, I'm looking to consume all I can about residential cameras and their use in securing my home, mainly on the outside. I'm likely running for school board and some local community members have become violent over the past 5ish years. I'm not going the cloud storage route. My background it IT, security, privacy, have built my own workstations, and run my own Unraid.

Thanks in advance for the great info you've all amassed and shared, I'm sure I'll find it critical to learn quickly.
Welcome Sportbiker,

If you want to jump in quick and start learning, here's the typical recommendation to get you moving ( based on the current communities preferences )

1) pick up one 4MP 1/1.8" sensor Dahua OEM varifocal camera ( see EmpireTecAndy here .. he's been a highly recommended source of Dahua OEM cameras )
2) pick up a decent PoE switch
3) pick up a used Business Class HP or Dell PC ( i7 6th gen+ or a newer i5 ) which can hold one windows boot ssd and 1+ 3.5" HDD ( WD purple or Seagate Skyhawk preferred ), + blue iris software ( can use Dahua OEM SmartPSS for free for Dahua cameras, Blue Iris is preferred by most members ) - while you are learning with one camera, you can probably use a PC you already have.
4) pick up one decent cat6 23-24awg copper wired cable to test with
5) look for test rig setups here, to start playing with.

This and the cliff notes here will help you learn.

 

wittaj

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@ Wittaj. you should see the Black and white CCTV cams i began with at the Condo.....
And you probably thought those were the best thing ever when you first saw the image LOL.

My first box kit was the 4 cam kit that I put on each corner of the house on the 2nd floor and was like "I can see the whole neighborhood - these things are amazing"

You get lured in to thinking that is great because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.

Then the journey for better begins.
 

Flintstone61

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this person was ID'ed trying to pass our residents stolen check by a Bank camera a few days later. He was known to L.E. ...And he was in custody on a another charge!
Off camera to the right of the glass doors is the "outgoing" mail box. He yanked it open and took 3 days of outgoing mail. Thats when I realized how weak our security was. No cameras in Mail room. No cameras outside, no license plate, no nothing.
 

sebastiantombs

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I installed stuff like that when it was the leading edge. Looking at what's available today, the 5442, the new 4K full color and now the dual IR/visible, it boggles the mind.

I started with a 720P Grandstream, maybe five or more years ago, and thought that was good. Then I got a 2MP Reolink and thought it was the ultimate. Then a couple of SV3C 2MP which were better than the Reolink. All that fell apart with my first 4231 from Andy. To say it's a night and day difference doesn't even come close to describing the differences between the old tech, low tech like Reolink and SV3C and good quality. Now, I'll probably get them all replaced with 5442s just in time to replace them yet again with the dual IR/visible.
 
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Sportbiker

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Welcome Sportbiker,

If you want to jump in quick and start learning, here's the typical recommendation to get you moving ( based on the current communities preferences )

1) pick up one 4MP 1/1.8" sensor Dahua OEM varifocal camera ( see EmpireTecAndy here .. he's been a highly recommended source of Dahua OEM cameras )
2) pick up a decent PoE switch
3) pick up a used Business Class HP or Dell PC ( i7 6th gen+ or a newer i5 ) which can hold one windows boot ssd and 1+ 3.5" HDD ( WD purple or Seagate Skyhawk preferred ), + blue iris software ( can use Dahua OEM SmartPSS for free for Dahua cameras, Blue Iris is preferred by most members ) - while you are learning with one camera, you can probably use a PC you already have.
4) pick up one decent cat6 23-24awg copper wired cable to test with
5) look for test rig setups here, to start playing with.

This and the cliff notes here will help you learn.

Thanks, great starting points. One thing in OP (privacy/security) influences my hope to find something that isn't on the US Gov't 889 list. I've seen Dahua is quite popular here...

The cliff notes I hadn't found, thanks for that especially. The guide for a surveillance server is handy, I used something similar for my Plex build. I've run cat5e throughout the house so hopefully running 6 will be a bit easier now, hopefully same crimping tool I'm already using.

@wittaj, uh, wow. Most detailed response I've ever seen in an Intro subforum. Thank you!
 

wittaj

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Regarding the ban and impacting you, that is just crazy talk and you will spend a lot more for "compliant" cams that are inferior to the Dahua and Hiks....

That ban is crazy government thinking they are eliminating the potential of hacking by the Chinese government without addressing the real issue.

Hacking vulnerabilities are the same regardless of who makes the cameras...or any IoT for that matter...and that is why most of us here isolate our cameras from the internet...it's just irony that they are surveillance cameras...it flows better saying security cameras are not very secure but many here do not consider them security cameras as they are for surveillance!

If your cameras talk to the internet, they will be hacked regardless of whether it is on a compliant list or not...

And our wonderful government decided to ban Hikvision and Dahua from government installations due to being partly owned by the Chinese government and the potential to be hacked...yet fail to recognize the real problem are the cameras can be breached and then they get exploited with other manufacturer cameras because they failed to isolate them from the internet. End result is people/governments that shouldn't see the camera feeds are now seeing them...

Yep, instead of our government addressing what the real issue is, instead they forbid public agencies from using Chinese brand cameras like Dahua and Hikvision for fear they could be used to be spied on by the Chinese government, and it is this issue that will be same regardless of who makes a camera. You need to get the cameras off the internet period.

We have already seen countless examples where governments facilities that installed expensive compliant AXIS cameras that are built in the US were hacked into...they did not address the root concern!

TL : DR - as a consumer you have nothing to worry about.

Simply do as most of us here and isolate your cameras from the internet and you have nothing to worry about...

Our cameras are on completely separate IP addresses and cannot reach the internet. You isolate them either VLAN or Dual NIC.


 
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mat200

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Thanks, great starting points. One thing in OP (privacy/security) influences my hope to find something that isn't on the US Gov't 889 list. I've seen Dahua is quite popular here...

The cliff notes I hadn't found, thanks for that especially. The guide for a surveillance server is handy, I used something similar for my Plex build. I've run cat5e throughout the house so hopefully running 6 will be a bit easier now, hopefully same crimping tool I'm already using.

@wittaj, uh, wow. Most detailed response I've ever seen in an Intro subforum. Thank you!
Hi @Sportbiker

I understand why you would like to look for compliance w/regards to the US Government 889 list.

However, as pointed out - there are not as many options available.

My solution: isolate the IP PoE cameras.
 

Sportbiker

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Newb update. Thanks again for all the info in such a concise manner, like mat200's checklist. I got elected and am now starting procurement.

Picked up BI on Black Friday and am working on sizing a proper workstation. I read the CPU sizing info but am unsure how to estimate MP/s so I know which one to grab. Since my planned setup of 11 cameras is fewer than Flintstone's above, I'm going to assume I can pickup a "Great" or "Best Performance" CPU-based system and be good to go.

I'll also start with the 5442 ZE recommended by wittaj and ping the forum's vendor for that buy. The Cat6 is easy. The last, and harder part, is the PoE since it seems logical to just buy the one that will service the needs of all the cameras I'm expecting to run; 24-port. Crazy the prices for those things. This one-router approach is based on the assumption that a run half the Cat6 max (~320') for any camera will be trouble-free.

My head's swimming reading all the various models (just for Dahua!) and stats but hope over the next couple weeks it'll become easier to follow.
 

wittaj

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Fortunately the CPU sizing isn't as critical now that the substreams option is available. That CPU sizing info is a little dated.

A member here runs 50 cameras on a 4th gen at 30% CPU because of the substreams option.

If you budget allows, go with a 7th generation or newer. Not a laptop. Many of us go with refurbished as they are usually business class computers that come off a lease. Mine looked brand new. Not a scratch or speck of dust at all.

But if the budget is tight based on your other purchases, a 4th-6th generation is a capable machine as well.
 

sebastiantombs

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An i7 6th or 7th generation or newer is fine to run 20 or 30 cameras with and they will probably support more than that. If you plan on using "artificial intelligence", Blue Iris now integrates with DeepStack AI, I'd suggest picking up a CUDA capable video card to handle that duty. A 1050 or 1060 is plenty of horsepower for DeepStack.

Like wittaj says, using sub streams makes it possible to run a lot of cameras on older processors. I'm running 20currently on an i7-6700K. Whatever you decide on make sure there's enough physical space and connections, power and data, to support some extra platter drives for video storage. Generally 16GB of RAM is fine, 32GB eve better but not at all necessary.

One other comment. A video system is for surveillance. An alarm system is for security, If you don't already have an alarm system I'd suggest that get done first. I'm a hardwire alarm guy and prefer hard wired alarms.
 
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